Current Events > George RR Martin Admits He May Never Finish 'Winds Of Winter'

(+) Yeah! (+)

PraetorXyn posted...

People don't seem to realize that George was basically a starving artist for most of his career. He always wanted to write for TV, so I feel like a lot of this is just the case of him being 65 and much preferring to finally enjoy success hanging out with Hollywood people working on TV stuff than to slave away at a keyboard for hours on end.

This is what I assume, He started 'ice and fire' in the mid-90s when he was a nobody, he knocked out the first couple of books in a few years, why? Because if he didn't write he didn't eat. But once the show took off writing was much more of a 'hobby' than a career, he is much happier being a TV consultant and writing stories when he feels like.

Also he's 76 not 65.
Beany posted...

Yeah it's 100% understandable tbh and I don't blame him at all.

I DO BLAME him.

If he doesn't want to spend his golden years writing a story he had a passing interest in back in the 90s. More power to him, don't do it. But he also doesn't want anyone else to do the writing, and he said even after he dies he wants all his stuff burned and no one to finish his books.

He doesn't want to work on it, but he also is fine with dying and leaving his fans (who made him rich) with literary blue balls... and then saying they are horrible people for being angry at him.

No one should be rude, nasty or physically/verbally abuse George RR Martin, but I would say no one should treat any person that way... but George's fans have every right to be respectfully angry with him.

Nemu posted...

Its weird seeing authors willing to just die with their series instead of just getting at least some outside help.

This is what I say....

Get 2 or 3 young no-name writers, give them detailed notes on chapters, and let them write it. Let them spend hours and hours slaving in front of a monitor all day and night. Then George pops in once or twice a week and edits and gives them more notes. The rest of the week he's off playing golf or going to the movies or whatever he wants to do. And if he wants to write a few chapters himself he's free to do that.

And if anyone thinks that wouldn't work, that's pretty much how TV shows work, include George's time on GoT.

Both books could be done in under a year, George would still have full creative control, the young writers would get the type of expose most writers dream of, George could spend his days doing stuff he loves.

It's a win-win-win-win.

hmnut7 posted...

This is what I assume, He started 'ice and fire' in the mid-90s when he was a nobody, he knocked out the first couple of books in a few years, why? Because if he didn't write he didn't eat. But once the show took off writing was much more of a 'hobby' than a career, he is much happier being a TV consultant and writing stories when he feels like.

Also he's 76 not 65.

I DO BLAME him.

If he doesn't want to spend his golden years writing a story he had a passing interest in back in the 90s. More power to him, don't do it. But he also doesn't want anyone else to do the writing, and he said even after he dies he wants all his stuff burned and no one to finish his books.

He doesn't want to work on it, but he also is fine with dying and leaving his fans (who made him rich) with literary blue balls... and then saying they are horrible people for being angry at him.

No one should be rude, nasty or physically/verbally abuse George RR Martin, but I would say no one should treat any person that way... but George's fans have every right to be respectfully angry with him.

He's still writing the book. This is pure "making up something to get mad at." he says he's working on it. His assistant says he's working on it. His wife and friends say he's working on it.

There isn't any indication he's not working on it. he didn't just stop and good "lol I'm done.'

If Martin doesn't want to do it, he needs to let people know.

It just feels like he is lying to everyone.

LightSnake posted...

he says he's working on it. His assistant says he's working on it. His wife and friends say he's working on it.

He could write one page a month and still technically be "working on it".

LightSnake posted...

He's still writing the book. This is pure "making up something to get mad at." he says he's working on it. His assistant says he's working on it. His wife and friends say he's working on it.

There isn't any indication he's not working on it. he didn't just stop and good "lol I'm done.'

He's "been working on it" for 14 years

LightSnake posted...

He's still writing the book. This is pure "making up something to get mad at." he says he's working on it. His assistant says he's working on it. His wife and friends say he's working on it.

There isn't any indication he's not working on it. he didn't just stop and good "lol I'm done.'

If you say your going to paint your sons room and wait 14 years to do it, don't be suprised when the wife gets on your case for being so lazy.

LightSnake posted...

He's still writing the book. This is pure "making up something to get mad at." he says he's working on it. His assistant says he's working on it. His wife and friends say he's working on it.

Isn't Martin the type of writer that he'll write something, and then delete it later?

If you write 1000 words, but later on delete it, did you actually write?

Technically that is writing.

hmnut7 posted...

This is what I say....

Get 2 or 3 young no-name writers, give them detailed notes on chapters, and let them write it. Let them spend hours and hours slaving in front of a monitor all day and night. Then George pops in once or twice a week and edits and gives them more notes. The rest of the week he's off playing golf or going to the movies or whatever he wants to do. And if he wants to write a few chapters himself he's free to do that.

And if anyone thinks that wouldn't work, that's pretty much how TV shows work, include George's time on GoT.

Both books could be done in under a year, George would still have full creative control, the young writers would get the type of expose most writers dream of, George could spend his days doing stuff he loves.

It's a win-win-win-win.

THIS

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0b52b749.png

mystic_belmont posted...

Isn't Martin the type of writer that he'll write something, and then delete it later?

If you write 1000 words, but later on delete it, did you actually write?

Technically that is writing.

Yes. Writing 101 is that you dont revise until youre done. George constantly revises as he goes along. So he might write 200 pages then throw that away and rewrite them, or spend 3 months meticulously going over those 200 pages and revising them.

hmnut7 posted...

Get 2 or 3 young no-name writers, give them detailed notes on chapters, and let them write it. Let them spend hours and hours slaving in front of a monitor all day and night. Then George pops in once or twice a week and edits and gives them more notes. The rest of the week he's off playing golf or going to the movies or whatever he wants to do. And if he wants to write a few chapters himself he's free to do that.

No self respecting author would do that. Especially when they're still alive.

hmnut7 posted...

This is what I say....

Get 2 or 3 young no-name writers, give them detailed notes on chapters, and let them write it. Let them spend hours and hours slaving in front of a monitor all day and night. Then George pops in once or twice a week and edits and gives them more notes. The rest of the week he's off playing golf or going to the movies or whatever he wants to do. And if he wants to write a few chapters himself he's free to do that.

And if anyone thinks that wouldn't work, that's pretty much how TV shows work, include George's time on GoT.

Both books could be done in under a year, George would still have full creative control, the young writers would get the type of expose most writers dream of, George could spend his days doing stuff he loves.

It's a win-win-win-win.

Yeah... I think that is the crux of the problem. The last two books would have been written years ago if George wasn't so stubborn and would just allow people to help him. The delay of the books is 100% on him since it wouldn't even require much effort on his part except to accept people's help.

hmnut7 posted...

If he doesn't want to spend his golden years writing a story he had a passing interest in back in the 90s. More power to him, don't do it. But he also doesn't want anyone else to do the writing, and he said even after he dies he wants all his stuff burned and no one to finish his books.

hmnut7 posted...

He doesn't want to work on it, but he also is fine with dying and leaving his fans (who made him rich) with literary blue balls... and then saying they are horrible people for being angry at him.

The fans being upset because George won't accept help to get the books finished is on George. The fact he wants unfinished material destroyed if he dies is just him being a spiteful bastard. Sadly...

PraetorXyn posted...

Larry Correia had a great essay on this.
https://tinyurl.com/47mv69e9

As this excellent essay mentioned, other fantasy writers pay the price for George being a stubborn douche that either won't
1. Accept help to complete the books or
2. Admit the shows gave us the actual ending he more or less had the idea for and the books won't get finished...allowing people to move onto something else.

PraetorXyn posted...

Yes. Writing 101 is that you dont revise u til youre done. George constantly revises as he goes along. So he might write 200 pages then throw that away and rewrite them, or spend 3 months meticulously going over those 20p pages and revising them.

Maybe George should use an outline/

Writing 100 pages and throwing it away is a big fucking waste.

Tbh, I don't think it's unreasonable for a writer to believe their story is their story, and not want someone else to come in and help writing it. No matter what you do, there is going to be some level of that person implementing their thought process into the book.

People just need to start ignoring him and telling him they just don't care if he ever finishes at this point. Just move on and stop giving this grumpy old fart attention for this book that he keeps pretending he might write one day. Tell him piss off, HBO already finished his story and he isn't needed any longer. Tell him nobody actually cares anymore. He might finish it out of spite.

We already have HIS ending. Bran will be king and Jon will kill Dany. It's done.

havean776 posted...

If you say your going to paint your sons room and wait 14 years to do it, don't be suprised when the wife gets on your case for being so lazy.

Well by Lightsnake's logic you could paint one inch of your son's room every few months, and she would have no right to say you're lazy,
"GOD HONEY, YOU CAN CLEALY SEE, I'M WORKING ON!"

LeCh0nk posted...

No self respecting author would do that. Especially when they're still alive.

It's called editing, many authors do it, including Martin.

Euripides posted...

He's "been working on it" for 14 years

And/ I repeat again: Nobody is entitled to a book faster than the author writes it.

mystic_belmont posted...

Isn't Martin the type of writer that he'll write something, and then delete it later?

If you write 1000 words, but later on delete it, did you actually write?

Technically that is writing.

I mean, yes. Some people finish a first draft and edit it then, some people edit as they go. There's no one size fits all approach

hmnut7 posted...

It's called editing, many authors do it, including Martin.

Editing is worlds different that what I'm talking about

LightSnake posted...

I mean, yes. Some people finish a first draft and edit it then, some people edit as they go. There's no one size fits all approach

It does when you say you've been working on something for 14 years, but you spend all your time not working on it.

It's called productive procrastination.

mystic_belmont posted...

It does when you say you've been working on something for 14 years, but you spend all your time not working on it.

It's called productive procrastination.

If he was just deleting for fun, sure. But he's ctively rewriting what gets deleted.

I'm not saying he's blameless here, but there's a whole lot of entitlement we see online over this. People want the book, which is understandable, but there's perspective needed over this. I think it's shitty when an author who's pretty famous for having a lot of access for his fans basically gets spammed with "we don't care about you except if you finish a book we want, you can die after."

LightSnake posted...

And/ I repeat again: Nobody is entitled to a book faster than the author writes it.

It's interesting hill you seem you want to die on.

You're right no one is entitled to a book faster than the author writes it, and no author is entitled people's patients when they're sick of waiting.

Martin has given fans several dates when the book would be done, and he's missed every single one. And it's not like he did nothing but work on this one book, he's taken on countless other projects when he knows (and willingly engages with) his fans who are waiting for this book.

If Martin said in 2011, "Look, I'm going to work on the book, but I think I want to work on other things too, so this book might take a really long time." But he gave dates which means he told his fans to expect it by a certain time, 14 years later he can't be like "well why are they mad it's taking so long."

What I would recommend his fans do, take a deep breath and just accept he is not as invested in this as they are. Find fan fiction that ends the story, and just make that their head cannon (or better yet write their own), maybe start creating websites debating which fan fic ending of "Ice and Fire" was the best.

But most importantly, ignore George. Boycott any book he publishes before Winds, boycott any project he works on that takes time away from writing Winds. I doubt this will get him to write any faster, but hurting his wallet is better than hurting his feelings.

hmnut7 posted...

It's interesting hill you seem you want to die on.

You're right no one is entitled to a book faster than the author writes it, and no author is entitled people's patients when they're sick of waiting.

That's true, honestly. Fans are allowed to vote with their wallets however they want.

Martin has given fans several dates when the book would be done, and he's missed every single one. And it's not like he did nothing but work on this one book, he's taken on countless other projects when he knows (and willingly engages with) his fans are waiting for this book.

I kind of get this with taking on too much from TV, but a lot of fans seem very happy with things like Fire and Blood. And again, he's given hopes, and missed those. He specifically doesn't promise when a book will be done.

If Martin said in 2011, "Look, I'm going to work on the book, but I think I want to work on other things too, so this book might take a really long time."

What I would recommend his fans do, take a deep breath and just accept he is not as invested in this as they are. Find fan fiction that ends the story, and just make that their head cannon (or better yet write their own), maybe start creating websites debating which fan fic ending of "Ice and Fire" was the best.

But most importantly, ignore George. Boycott any book he publishes before Winds, boycott any project he works on that takes time away from writing Winds. I doubt this will get him to write any faster, but hurting his wallet is better than hurting his feelings.

I mean, if a new Dunk and Egg or Fire and Blood type thing comes out, I'm not going to boycott i. I didn't boycott Elden Ring, either. Honestly, everyone has the right to do this and nobody can be faulted consumption choices, so tis's honestly a fair suggestion

LightSnake posted...

That's true, honestly. Fans are allowed to vote with their wallets however they want.

I kind of get this with taking on too much from TV, but a lot of fans seem very happy with things like Fire and Blood. And again, he's given hopes, and missed those. He specifically doesn't promise when a book will be done.

I mean, if a new Dunk and Egg or Fire and Blood type thing comes out, I'm not going to boycott i. I didn't boycott Elden Ring, either. Honestly, everyone has the right to do this and nobody can be faulted consumption choices, so tis's honestly a fair suggestion

Well we seem to be getting closer to the same page.

I agree with you, yelling at Martin stuff like "I hope you die so the book can be finished" is really uncalled for.

You like Dunk and Egg, cool good for you, and I will bet you any amount of money when you're standing on line to buy the new Dunk and Egg book, the guy who told Martin to die will be right behind you.

And that's his power and that's why he has the freedom to write "Winds" as fast or as slow as he wants. His fans are addicted to his work, and as much as they say they hate him, they'll eat up whatever he throws at them.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I still like his interview about it.

Paraphrased:

"How do you write so much, so consistently?"

"... because it's my fucking job?"

Has he tried becoming limitless like that guy in limitless?

LightSnake posted...

but there's perspective needed over this.

The perspective is that there is no longer an economic incentive to finish the books.

He's done with the series. He's now doing hundreds of other projects rather than finish the thing that made him famous

mystic_belmont posted...

The perspective is that there is no longer an economic incentive to finish the books.

He's done with the series. He's now doing hundreds of other projects rather than finish the thing that made him famous

He's not "done" with the series. Again, this is contrary to Martin himself and every person who knows him. He's not driven by pure profit here, he wants to finish his story but his writing style is a slow one specifically because he's a perfectionist.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

My views on George's work are largely influenced by my understanding of Stephen Kings work (ethic).

In the late 90s King was in a horrible car accident that almost killed him, he had to have several surgeries and intense physical therapy, there was period where he even 'sitting' would be intensely painful if he did it for more than a a few minutes at a time.

But he still hadn't finished what he wanted to be his Magnum Opus series "the Dark Tower."

He was faced with the reality that at any moment his life could be over and he didn't want to die with that story undone. It took King 5 years to mostly recover from his injuries in those years he completed the last 2 books of the Dark Tower series.

That's what you do when your Magnum Opus is your TOP priority.

It's not for George, he might finish it, he might not, he seems okay with it being left undone as long as he has the freedom to do other things.

hmnut7 posted...

My views on George's work are largely influenced by my understanding of Stephen Kings work (ethic).

In the late 90s King was in a horrible car accident that almost killed him, he had to have several surgeries and intense physical therapy, there was period where he even 'sitting' would be intensely painful if he did it for more than a a few minutes at a time.

But he still hadn't finished what he wanted to be his Magnum Opus series "the Dark Tower."

He was faced with the reality that at any moment his life could be over and he didn't want to die with that story undone. It took King 5 years to mostly recover from his injuries in those 4 years he completed the Dark Tower series.

That's what you do when your Magnum Opus is your TOP priority.

It's not for George, he might finish it, he might not, he seems okay with it being left undone as long as he has the freedom to do other things.

King is a fast writer with an entirely different process and his writing style is likewise totally different. The Dark Tower is focused entirely on Roland himself.

LightSnake posted...

he wants to finish his story but his writing style is a slow one specifically because he's a perfectionist.

Given that the first three books came out two years apart, he can write fast when he wants to.

LightSnake posted...

He's not "done" with the series.

Is he though, since it's been 13 years since the last one was released.

If he actually wanted to finish, he'd dedicate actual time to do so. He keeps booking new projects, so that he never actually has to finish it.

LightSnake posted...

The Dark Tower is focused entirely on Roland himself.

What are you even on about? There were other characters with arcs in The Dark Tower series.

mystic_belmont posted...

Given that the first three books came out two years apart, he can write fast when he wants to.

Martin spent like a lot of time writing it and mappingout ACOK and ASOS before he published Game of Thrones. Then he scrapped the planned timeskip.

Is he though, since it's been 13 years since the last one was released.

And he's still writing it. I'm still waiting on the 4th book in Gentleman Bastards (11 years), for one. And the Books of Abarat (13 years now), the third Books of the Art by the same writer (30 years now), Melanie Rawn's Captal's Tower (30 years) and othes. Permit me to not think a fantasy book being late is a huge deal

If he actually wanted to finish, he'd dedicate actual time to do so. He keeps booking new projects, so that he never actually has to finish it.

He has dedicated time to do it. As he says, sometimes writing goes well, sometimes it doesn't.
ItsNotA2Mer posted...

What are you even on about? There were other characters with arcs in The Dark Tower series.

Roland is the main of the Dark Tower? That the books center entirely around? Dark Tower is much more straightforward than ASOIAF

King is also writing multiple novels at the same time. The man is a machine

Euripides posted...

King is also writing multiple novels at the same time. The man is a machine

Martin once asked King how he writes so much. King's answer was basically he treats it like a job, that he sits down every day and writes until he hits a daily productivity goal (six pages).

If Martin had written just one page a day since the release of ADWD, he'd be a little over 300 pages shy of matching the combined page count of the first five books. If he wrote just 100 words a day, he'd have already eclipsed the word count for ADWD.

LightSnake posted...

He has dedicated time to do it.

And how much time is that? Between all the side projects and conventions, it doesn't leave a lot of time to actually write the thing

mystic_belmont posted...

And how much time is that? Between all the side projects and conventions, it doesn't leave a lot of time to actually write the thing

I mean, he's canceled trips, cons and cut back on them to remain at home and work on it.

LightSnake REALLY really likes George R.R. Martin

Listen, I liked Sandkings as much as the next guy, but let's not act like George has any real intention of finishing Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring, okay? Don't do yourself like that.

LightSnake posted...

I mean, he's canceled trips, cons and cut back on them to remain at home and work on it.

One hand is literally overflowing with shit, the other remains completely empty.

This isn't really surprising anyone at this point. He's not gonna finish anymore books lol. We're left with the show ending.

LightSnake posted...

I mean, he's canceled trips, cons and cut back on them to remain at home and work on it.

And yet, he fills that time writing for House of the Dragon:

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11198330/fullcredits/writer

George R.R. Martin
created by (17 episodes, 2022-2024)

He has time to fill with writing scripts, but not for the books that made him rich.

I get it, it's probably a story he's lost interest in. Filling in the gaps, getting people to where they need to be is hard.

World building is fun!

So he does what is fun, not what is hard.

BTW, here is a (depressing) timeline of Martin's promises and predictions for Winds:

https://theweek.com/feature/briefing/1022767/a-complete-timeline-of-george-rr-martins-progress-on-the-winds-of-winter

hmnut7 posted...

That's what you do when your Magnum Opus is your TOP priority.

People are different. Martin with his constant rewrites is clearly a perfectionist. Hes getting in his own way so he works on it but he doesnt make progress.

bfslick50 posted...

People are different. Martin with his constant rewrites is clearly a perfectionist. Hes getting in his own way so he works on it but he doesnt make progress.

Maybe if Martin had an outline, he wouldn't need to scrap as much?

bfslick50 posted...

People are different.

Yes, people are different. Some make finishing their Magnum Opus their TOP priority, others make it a hobby they do when they have nothing else to do.

If my landlord says his TOP priority is fixing the burst pipe in my bathroom, then he is working on it until it is fixed.

If every couple of days or weeks he swings by my apartment and tightens one screw, but the he's nowhere close to done, meanwhile I see he built a brand new bathroom for my neighbor, and installed solar panels for someone who doesn't even live in the building, as well as taking on tons and tons of other projects. I'm gonna start thinking... my bathroom is NOT his top priority.

Now of course a book and bathroom are not the same thing. But either something is a TOP priority or it is not.

If it is a top priority than that is MAIN thing you are working on, maybe the occasional secondary project pops up, but you don't write several books, and work on several tv shows, and video games, etc. if finishing Winds is the TOP priority.

Martin might be a "perfectionist" but that's not why Winds isn't done.