Current Events > George RR Martin Admits He May Never Finish 'Winds Of Winter'

(+) Yeah! (+)

McSame_as_Bush posted...

I haven't followed this at all, so what's his major issue with finishing it? Other projects? Writer's block? Mental health?

I think he's just bored with it. Finishing the story will require a lot of hard work. Meanwhile, the TV deals he's working on with HBO are fun, comparatively easier, and much, much more lucrative.

*Laughs while reading Book 5 of The Stormlight Archive.*

Brandon Sanderson just released a 1300 page book after publishing 5 other books in the last year. The man is an absolute machine.

MrMolinaro posted...

*Laughs while reading Book 5 of The Stormlight Archive.*

Brandon Sanderson just released a 1300 page book after publishing 5 other books in the last year. The man is an absolute machine.

He did this without taking even a sip of coffee. The madman.

vycebrand2 posted...

We had that. That was the TV show. Anything past Season 6 was on them. There are plotline strings from the books still going in that season and we knew where they were going to end up. Tell her it was me

I'm pretty sure when they started the TV show they thought the series would be finished at some point within the next decade. or at least the next book. And when everyone saw how huge the first season was, that should have been his kick in the ass to get going.

George can complain about adaptations being handled wrong because the showrunners make changes all he wants, but it's only his fault that they ran out of books to go off of.

thronedfire2 posted...

I'm pretty sure when they started the TV show they thought the series would be finished at some point within the next decade. or at least the next book. And when everyone saw how huge the first season was, that should have been his kick in the ass to get going.

George can complain about adaptations being handled wrong because the showrunners make changes all he wants, but it's only his fault that they ran out of books to go off of.

There was a ton of book material left that they never adapted, though.

Beany posted...

There was a ton of book material left that they never adapted, though.

all of which still hasn't received a book conclusion, and probably would have thrown viewers off even more.

Maybe AI can finish it for him.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It's not a moral issue to be taking a long time to finish a book, have perspective.

What probably happened is he was planning an ending similar to how the TV series ended, and everyone hated it, so now he's trying to come up with something better but he's stuck.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


When did he lie to anyone there?
action52 posted...

What probably happened is he was planning an ending similar to how the TV series ended, and everyone hated it, so now he's trying to come up with something better but he's stuck.

Eh I don't think it's that. Martin's said for years, long before the show even came out, that he doesn't take fan reaction to account for his writing, or what they guessed right or wrong. He's probably not gonna have the White Walkers lose out in one battle in a single night, have Jaime and Cersei crushed by falling rocks, have Euron's visions amount to nothing, etc.

Trying to rationally debate with a fanboy on the internet has to be the most futile thing in the world. I'm out.

He probably writes on days fans dont call him nasty names on the internet.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Can you please cite one of these? He's said multiple times "Hope to finish by this date", but I've never seen him say a definitive date. He actually doesn't do that specifically to avoid that issues

Sandalorn posted...

Trying to rationally debate with a fanboy on the internet has to be the most futile thing in the world. I'm out.

We've gone to people claiming they're being cheated because a book is late and you're claiming you're being rational?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


"I hope to be done by this date" is not "leading people on."

LightSnake posted...

"I hope to be done by this date" is not "leading people on."

it is when it's been like 8 years

edit: oh, 13 years

Irony posted...

Can't finish what you never started or ever planned to start

It doesn't matter anyway, the series was ruined by the show. But Martin clearly lost interest when the show took off, dude has no incentive to write anything anymore.

LightSnake posted...

you realize he's read and shared entire chapter from WoW

The vast majority of those were cut from ADWD, so are you sure?

A Game of Thrones - 1996

A Clash of Kings - 1999

A Storm of Swords - 2000

A Feast for Crows - 2005

A Dance With Dragons - 2011

The longest gap between any of the first 5 books was 6 years. We're going on 14 years since the last book.

Euripides posted...

A Game of Thrones - 1996

A Clash of Kings - 1999

A Storm of Swords - 2000

A Feast for Crows - 2005

A Dance With Dragons - 2011

The longest gap between any of the first 5 books was 6 years. We're going on 14 years since the last book.

Entire series of similar complexity have been written between 2011 and now lol.

The problem is that George is a gardener, and in the last two books, he spun up about 100 new plot threads most readers agreed most of which seemed pretty unnecessary, so hes most likely written himself into a corner due to his lack of planning, and now hes stuck.

we know

I don't know why people use this narrative that the shows ending is what pissed everyone off, when IMO the reason everyone was pissed was HOW we got to that point, which George would have obviously expanded on had he ever written the material.

Put the blame solely on the showrunners, although I do give Martin some grief for that also because he was supposed to write the book in tandem and those earlier seasons were pretty great adaptations when they had material to pull from.

Yazarogi posted...

I don't know why people use this narrative that the shows ending is what pissed everyone off, when IMO the reason everyone was pissed was HOW we got to that point, which George would have obviously expanded on had he ever written the material.

Put the blame solely on the showrunners, although I do give Martin some grief for that also because he was supposed to write the book in tandem and those earlier seasons were pretty great adaptations when they had material to pull from.

They fucked up the adaptation long before they ran out of book (the butchering of the Dorne plot being the prime example).

But also no. That ending is garbage. There is absolutely no universe in which the greedy nobles of a feudal society built upon primogeniture and patriarchal succession ever elect to be ruled by a paraplegic child who can't sire heirseven if he has all the prescience of Paul Atreides. That is the single stupidest plot point I have ever heard, and there's literally no way George could possibly make it not stupid.

Meh, I'd rather read through TWoT again.

ItsNotA2Mer posted...

Meh, I'd rather read through TWoT again.

Oh 100%. Ive already had to resist the urge this year lol.

It was Martin's choice to make increasingly complex and increased amount of characters. I quit half way through Dance because half the chapters were featuring characters I didn't care about, long descriptions of food and what people were wearing, and overall nothing of substance.

Martin is in desperate need of an actual outline, and possibly an editor willing to get Martin to actually produce stuff.

Martin suffers from productive procrastination. The thing fans want is an end of the series, but none of that makes him money, and is probably boring. Writing scripts for a tv seres is way more lucrative, so that is what he is doing.

The absolute best time to have dropped Winds is after Jon dies. Book readers get to know something, a full year before show watchers do.

But now? I don't think the books will make any of the amount they would have if they released at the height of the franchises popularity. The show got to the end first, and no matter what the book says, people will default to the show ending (especially if it's anywhere near what the show did).

It's unfortunate, but Martin only has himself to blame.

mystic_belmont posted...

It was Martin's choice to make increasingly complex and increased amount of characters. I quit half way through Dance because half the chapters were featuring characters I didn't care about, long descriptions of food and what people were wearing, and overall nothing of substance.

Martin is in desperate need of an actual outline, and possibly an editor willing to get Martin to actually produce stuff.

Martin suffers from productive procrastination. The thing fans want is an end of the series, but none of that makes him money, and is probably boring. Writing scripts for a tv seres is way more lucrative, so that is what he is doing.

The absolute best time to have dropped Winds is after Jon dies. Book readers get to know something, a full year before show watchers do.

But now? I don't think the books will make any of the amount they would have if they released at the height of the franchises popularity. The show got to the end first, and no matter what the book says, people will default to the show ending (especially if it's anywhere near what the show did).

It's unfortunate, but Martin only has himself to blame.

People don't seem to realize that George was basically a starving artist for most of his career. He always wanted to write for TV, so I feel like a lot of this is just the case of him being 65 and much preferring to finally enjoy success hanging out with Hollywood people working on TV stuff than to slave away at a keyboard for hours on end.

PraetorXyn posted...

People don't seem to realize that George was basically a starving artist for most of his career. He always wanted to write for TV, so I feel like a lot of this is just the case of him being 65 and much preferring to finally enjoy success hanging out with Hollywood people working on TV stuff than to slave away at a keyboard for hours on end.

Yeah it's 100% understandable tbh and I don't blame him at all.

His excuse of being a gardener and having no control over where his characters go always struck me as bs. Hes the author, he can do what he wants.

PraetorXyn posted...

People don't seem to realize that George was basically a starving artist for most of his career. He always wanted to write for TV, so I feel like a lot of this is just the case of him being 65 and much preferring to finally enjoy success hanging out with Hollywood people working on TV stuff than to slave away at a keyboard for hours on end.

I understand. If he isn't going to finish than he needs to stop leading people on, find someone else to finish, and let him do what he actually wants.

mystic_belmont posted...

I understand. If he isn't going to finish than he needs to stop leading people on, find someone else to finish, and let him do what he actually wants.

Agreed, but I dont think anyone would be willing.

Brandon Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie, Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck (AKA the duo that is James S. A. Corey, authors of The Expanse and Georges former protgs), and more names Im probably forgetting have all said they wouldnt do it if asked.

I feel like whatever is done at this point, it cant satisfy people, so this wouldnt be a big career making move. Besides, George probably doesnt have much in the way of outline or notes, unlike Jordan, since he doesnt seem to plan anything.

PraetorXyn posted...

Entire series of similar complexity have been written between 2011 and now lol.

The problem is that George is a gardener, and in the last two books, he spun up about 100 new plot threads most readers agreed most of which seemed pretty unnecessary, so hes most likely written himself into a corner due to his lack of planning, and now hes stuck.

Its either this or he realized he never answered the big questions like how do white walkers work. Kill the leader and its over is very Hollywood. I dont think thats from him. I think he doesnt have an answer on how to stop them. Another problem with the gardener method.

PraetorXyn posted...

They fucked up the adaptation long before they ran out of book (the butchering of the Dorne plot being the prime example).

But also no. That ending is garbage. There is absolutely no universe in which the greedy nobles of a feudal society built upon primogeniture and patriarchal succession ever elect to be ruled by a paraplegic child who can't sire heirseven if he has all the prescience of Paul Atreides. That is the single stupidest plot point I have ever heard, and there's literally no way George could possibly make it not stupid.

I don't believe that was George's ending regardless, they didn't have that information. Maybe Mad Queen and some other plot elements but I highly doubt he literally gave them who would be sitting on the throne at the end of the story. That felt like a D&D ass pull to me just so they could run off and direct star wars (they didn't get to because of how they rushed the ending)

Welp, until he finishes, I won't finish reading it past book 1.

https://youtu.be/3TUNSzbEypA?si=wJc_4XqntDHJNCfc

Smiffwilm posted...

Welp, until he finishes, I won't finish reading it past book 1.

That is the problem that he and Rothfus created. A lot of readers won't start a book series unless they know the series is done.

This affects new writers, who likely don't get the readers they need, because readers won't read their books.

mystic_belmont posted...

That is the problem that he and Rothfus created. A lot of readers won't start a book series unless they know the series is done.

This affects new writers, who likely don't get the readers they need, because readers won't read their books.

Larry Correia had a great essay on this.
https://tinyurl.com/47mv69e9

Yazarogi posted...

I don't believe that was George's ending regardless, they didn't have that information. Maybe Mad Queen and some other plot elements but I highly doubt he literally gave them who would be sitting on the throne at the end of the story. That felt like a D&D ass pull to me just so they could run off and direct star wars (they didn't get to because of how they rushed the ending)

Supposedly King Bran came from George along with Hold the Door.

PraetorXyn posted...

Larry Correia had a great essay on this.
https://tinyurl.com/47mv69e9

Perhaps publishers should pay writers enough for their entire book series?

I'm sorry, but my money goes to authors shown they can complete stuff, authors like Sanderson.

If Martin or Rothfus' editors actually made sure they finished their book series, we wouldn't be in this situation.

It's the same reason why I don't start a show until it's been cleared for at least season two or three.

I have limited time, and limited resources to spend on entertainment.

mystic_belmont posted...

Perhaps publishers should pay writers enough for their entire book series?

I'm sorry, but my money goes to authors shown they can complete stuff, authors like Sanderson.

If Martin or Rothfus' editors actually made sure they finished their book series, we wouldn't be in this situation.

It's the same reason why I don't start a show until it's been cleared for at least season two or three.

I have limited time, and limited resources to spend on entertainment.

Becoming a successful traditionally published author is like winning the lottery 3 times: once to get an agent, once to get a publisher, and once for the publisher to actually push and market you to the point of success. No way in hell theyd just pay for the whole thing up front for new unestablished authors.

Christopher Ruocchio is a machine, who has produced a 600-700 page masterpiece of a tome every couple years like clockwork since 2018 (the first book is very much a setup book though), with his final book coming out probably late next year or early 2026, and has levels of transparency with his readers greater than Sanderson. But he almost didnt make it because of this BS attitude Martin and Rothfuss fostered.

Nobody says people have to read a series before its done, but if a first book attracted your interest and youre afraid of it not being finished, Id argue you should at least buy the first one and just keep it til its done. That way the author can afford to finish. Nobody can just work for free until its done.

Authors can always write single books, before a trilogy or so.

PraetorXyn posted...

Becoming a successful traditionally published author is like winning the lottery 3 times: once to get an agent, once to get a publisher, and once for the publisher to actually push and market you to the point of success. No way in hell theyd just pay for the whole thing up front for new unestablished authors.

Christopher Ruocchio is a machine, who has produced a 600-700 page masterpiece of a time every couple years like clockwork since 2018 (the first book is very much a setup book though), with his final book coming out probably late next year or early 2026, and has levels of transparency with his readers greater than Sanderson. But he almost didnt make it because of this BS attitude Martin and Rothfuss fostered.

Nobody says people have to read a series before its done, but if a first book attracted your interest and youre afraid of it not being finished, Id argue you should at least buy the first one and just keep it til its done. That way the author can afford to finish. Nobody can just work for free until its done.

Yeah, it happens but it's rare. Increasingly rarer these days.

mystic_belmont posted...

Authors can always write single books, before a trilogy or so.

Yeah, but standalone are no where near as successful in the fantasy genre, which lends itself to those long epic scale stories.

Maybe its just a me thing, as I dont buy books. I buy series. Im OCD and couldnt fathom buying a book 1 and not finishing it, so I just buy it. Ive bought series years ago I still havent gotten to, but I read ebooks, so its not like Im forming out hundreds in hardcovers sight unseen.

ScazarMeltex posted...

They had the ending George gave them. I can't remember where I found the article but the writers of the show essentially made Martin tell them the ending at the start since Martin was known to be slow as molasses even back then. He didn't give the details of the characters got there, since he hadn't fleshed it out yet.

Which is why the show goes from being character driven like the books to being story beat driven once they ran out of the written material. So having the ending but no way to get there you get filler shit like Jamie/Brown road trip season.

PraetorXyn posted...

Supposedly King Bran came from George along with Hold the Door.

and honestly that would have been fine IF they didnt just jump straight that conclusion with Bran if George had written it, it wouldnt have just been some slapstick moment we got in the show.

again Im not defending George, 9 times out of 10 there is a George R.R. Martin topic I let it be known that the guy is an asshole who needs to finish the damn books or hire a ghost writer at least.

Its weird seeing authors willing to just die with their series instead of just getting at least some outside help.