Current Events > Not sure u guys realize how bad Israel is for Dems

(+) Yeah! (+)

1337toothbrush posted...

I love how you immediately go back to trump, proving my point.

Why wouldn't I go back to Trump when this is about an election between Trump or Biden?

Trumble posted...

He does. The difference is, when he gets bashed for it - or most other things - unless one of the ever-dwindling stock of Trumper CEmen happens to be online at the time, people agree with it and move on.

Here we see downplaying not agreement:

Trumble posted...

I'm not disputing it's factual. I'm disputing that it's a valid defence of Biden rather than a deflection.

If I murder someone and say "this other guy murdered two people" and he really did, I'm not suddenly innocent just because I've pointed out, factually, that someone else is worse. This would also hold true even if the other guy murdered far more than two people, for that matter.

So point stands. Trump heinous plans are brought up, they are tossed aside and instead just focus on Biden.
Treat this like a vacuum please.

Why?

WingsOfGood posted...

So point stands. Trump heinous plans are brought up, they are tossed aside and instead just focus on Biden.
Treat this like a vacuum please.

Why?

Why were they brought up in the first place? The topic wasn't "is Trump or Biden worse", it was "the Israel situation is bad for the Democrats".

Also note this part of what you quoted from me:

I'm not disputing it's factual.

And how what I said in my recent post was:

The difference is, when he gets bashed for it [...] people agree with it and move on.

Which is exactly what you're... complaining that I did?

Am I supposed to have a 500-word copy-paste essay about how Trump is bad to drop every time someone brings up that Trump is bad in a topic that wasn't even about Trump?

Trumble posted...

Why were they brought up in the first place? The topic wasn't "is Trump or Biden worse", it was "the Israel situation is bad for the Democrats".

What does bad for the democrats mean?

It means the election. If you want to just say Biden sucks on Israel and not have people discuss about Trump actually literally and truthfully being worse on Israel don't make a topic about the election. But then you wouldn't get 500 posts because it would just be "agreed" and topic over

smh

WingsOfGood posted...

Why wouldn't I go back to Trump when this is about an election between Trump or Biden?

If you haven't noticed, there is a genocide going on right now, the president is fully supporting it, and that president is biden. You're making it about biden vs trump because otherwise you'd have to confront the point that biden is fully supporting genocide head on.

1337toothbrush posted...

If you haven't noticed, there is a genocide going on right now, the president is fully supporting it, and that president is biden. You're making it about biden vs trump because otherwise you'd have to confront the point that biden is fully supporting genocide head on.

Taking Refugees from the region is supporting genocide head on?

WingsOfGood posted...

Taking Refugees from the region is supporting genocide head on?

When you're the one making them refugees in the first place, yes.

1337toothbrush posted...

When you're the one making them refugees in the first place, yes.

So if 100,000 refugees come to America, he did not save those lives? This is your stance?

WingsOfGood posted...

What does bad for the democrats mean?

It means that it is causing them to lose support.

And, like, surely by now you've seen enough to realise that just pointing out someone else (that the people who Democrats are losing, don't support either) is worse, is not winning those votes back.

Realistically - there are three things that can happen here. Trump wins; Biden wins and continues status quo; Biden wins and improves his handling of this situation. The first one needs to be avoided; I agree completely on that. But the second isn't acceptable either; and the risk of it is causing Biden to lose support that he needs in order for the first to be prevented. Biden is ultimately the only one who can make the third happen; but an attitude of "just tolerate it and try to push people to turn a blind eye who very clearly are not willing to do so" is not going to help lead to that happening.

WingsOfGood posted...

So if 100,000 refugees come to America, he did not save those lives? This is your stance?

It depends. Would they have still been refugees, would their lives have been in danger, in the first place if it weren't for his actions? If so, then yes, he saved their lives. If not, then no, all he did was partially clean up a mess he created.

And in reality? It's probably going to be a very murky point somewhere between those two extremes.

Trumble posted...

It means that it is causing them to lose support.

in?

in the election.

what is an election about? It is about choosing Biden or Trump.

"please don't talk about Trump in this thread about the election!!"
smh

WingsOfGood posted...

So if 100,000 refugees come to America, he did not save those lives? This is your stance?

We'll see how many refugees he actually brings on, but even then it's ethnic cleansing at the minimum which is already horrible. Why doesn't he act like a president and put a stop to the support to israel?

Trumble posted...

It depends.

No it doesn't.

If Biden brings 100,000 people here he saved their lives.

See you cannot even admit that. That is unfair criticism.

Trumble posted...

It's probably going to be a very murky point somewhere between those two extremes.

So no matter what happens you concede that Biden isn't going Full Throated genocide?

What amount of genocide is acceptable to you Tyra? Like, how many kids is Israel allowed to drop US bombs on before we're allowed to speak our grievances? Right now we're at 15,000 dead children. Can I criticize Biden at 20,000?

Tyranthraxus posted...

So no matter what happens you concede that Biden isn't going Full Throated genocide?

Israel is committing genocide. Biden's support of Israel is absolute. This is full-throated support for genocide. Just because he manages the fallout around them like a coward, doesn't mean his support for their genocide isn't absolute.

CountCorvinus posted...

What amount of genocide is acceptable to you Tyra?

None. Any other questions? I don't view my support for Joe Biden as one of acceptance or approval. It is a purely ice cold logical pragmatism.

1337toothbrush posted...

Israel is committing genocide. Biden's support of Israel is absolute. This is full-throated support for genocide. Just because he manages the fallout around them like a coward, doesn't mean his support for their genocide isn't absolute.

So much for murky middle ground.

Tyranthraxus posted...

So no matter what happens you concede that Biden isn't going Full Throated genocide?

He could absolutely be worse. He could be providing more weapons than he is. He could be not offering the option of "you can just be displaced instead of dead". He could be outright putting US boots on the ground. He could be firing US nukes at the place.

But, despite all these possibilites of how he could be far far worse, to many people - and that includes my own view - what he has done is still way, WAY too far to be acceptable.

And more importantly as far as the subject of this topic goes - him continuing to do it will lose support, which will result in the very Trump victory you're so (rightly) insistent must be avoided. Attempting to silence, downplay or deflect criticism of Biden's actions is not the right way to resolve that.

Tyranthraxus posted...

So much for murky middle ground.

...you do realise you're talking to two (edit: three) different users here, right? I see it one way, 1337 sees it another, Count sees it another again.

Tyranthraxus posted...

None. Any other questions? I don't view my support for Joe Biden as one of acceptance or approval. It is a purely ice cold logical pragmatism.

logically if you cared about the lives of Palestinians which would you choose?

1. Guy who is full genocide and wants them gone ASAP
2. Guy who will at least save 100,000 of them

Trumble posted...

Attempting to silence, downplay or deflect criticism of Biden's actions is not the right way to resolve that.

There's nothing behind downplayed here. Joe Biden's victory, despite the genocide, is still somehow the best case scenario for Gaza. That's completely fucked but I have no power to change things. I have only the power to reduce as much harm as possible and this is the the way to do it. If you aren't contributing to harm reduction, then you're contributing to harm.

WingsOfGood posted...

logically if you cared about the lives of Palestinians which would you choose?

1. Guy who is full genocide and wants them gone ASAP
2. Guy who will at least save 100,000 of them

3. Don't do genocide.

1337toothbrush posted...

3. Don't do genocide.

ah so avoid the question

not surprised, not surprised at all

should be easy to answer, but you couldn't?

I personally pick the guy who saves at least 100,000 lives it is a no brainer

1337toothbrush posted...

3. Don't do genocide.

On planet Earth in this universe in America this isn't an option. Pick something else.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I have only the power to reduce as much harm as possible and this is the the way to do it. If you aren't contributing to harm reduction, then you're contributing to harm.

well said

1337toothbrush posted...

3. Don't do genocide.

I like this option.

Weird to not be able to pick one of these two options:

1. Guy who is full genocide and wants them gone ASAP
2. Guy who will at least save 100,000 of them

I find it very easy as someone who cares about Palestinian lives I pick #2

Tyranthraxus posted...

On planet Earth in this universe in America this isn't an option. Pick something else.

How is it not an option?

WingsOfGood posted...

Weird to not be able to pick one of these two options:

1. Guy who is full genocide and wants them gone ASAP
2. Guy who will at least save 100,000 of them

I find it very easy as someone who cares about Palestinian lives I pick #2

There's 2 million people in Gaza.

CountCorvinus posted...

How is it not an option?

Because we only have two options and it's not one of the two.

WingsOfGood posted...

Weird to not be able to pick one of these two options:

1. Guy who is full genocide and wants them gone ASAP
2. Guy who will at least save 100,000 of them

I find it very easy as someone who cares about Palestinian lives I pick #2

It's like, what part of a Likud/GOP final solution in Palestine is not clear?

Tyranthraxus posted...

Because we only have two options and it's not one of the two.

Exactly. Trying to not pick one of the two is very weird thing to do. It isn't an option.

Should be very easy to pick one of the two if you legit care about Palestinian lives. I pick #2 for example. Took less than a second.

You know what I take it back. Joe Biden is still the "Don't do genocide" option. With Joe Biden, you have Genocide in Gaza. Without Joe Biden, you have genocide in Gaza, Ukraine, and Taiwan. Possibly elsewhere, too, like in America.

Netanyahu at every turn has made Biden look weak.

WingsOfGood posted...

Exactly. Trying to not pick one of the two is very weird thing to do. It isn't an option.

Should be very easy to pick one of the two if you legit care about Palestinian lives. I pick #2 for example. Took less than a second.

Toddlers are known to have difficulty when presented with limited options, said difficulties including whining, throwing tantrums and demanding an impossible option.

CountCorvinus posted...

There's 2 million people in Gaza.

Option 2 said at least.

But you decided to not even pick an option anyways. Seems strange to me for someone who cares about this issue. Option 1 is obviously unpickable.

But for some reason you juuuust can't pick #2?

Joe Biden will be the president the next 8 months, barring something actuarial happening. People should do what they can to try and steer that 8 months of policy towards the better, imo.

Tyranthraxus posted...

On planet Earth in this universe in America this isn't an option. Pick something else.

So why isn't an option? Is it because biden loves genocide? Is he a fascist that demands genocide?

EPR-radar posted...

Toddlers are known to have difficulty when presented with limited options, said difficulties including whining, throwing tantrums and demanding an impossible option.

Toddlers take options as presented to them because "an adult" told them so. Please use your adult critical thinking skills.

CountCorvinus posted...

What amount of genocide is acceptable to you Tyra? Like, how many kids is Israel allowed to drop US bombs on before we're allowed to speak our grievances? Right now we're at 15,000 dead children. Can I criticize Biden at 20,000?

Tyranthraxus posted...

You know what I take it back. Joe Biden is still the "Don't do genocide" option. With Joe Biden, you have Genocide in Gaza. Without Joe Biden, you have genocide in Gaza, Ukraine, and Taiwan. Possibly elsewhere, too, like in America.

Well, I got my answer.

1337toothbrush posted...

So why isn't an option? Is it because biden loves genocide? Is he a fascist that demands genocide?

Toddlers take options as presented to them because "an adult" told them so. Please use your adult critical thinking skills.

You still running the charade of not voting? Cause lol, that's funny.

Antifar posted...

Joe Biden will be the president the next 8 months, barring something actuarial happening. People should do what they can to try and steer that 8 months of policy towards the better, imo.

Especially considering (at least part of) that 8 months of policy has very, very real potential to influence whether or not Trump is the next President. You know, the thing people are (rightly) so worried about.

1337toothbrush posted...

So why isn't an option? Is it because biden loves genocide? Is he a fascist that demands genocide?

Because if you don't pick option 2 you get option 1 by default.

1337toothbrush posted...

So why isn't an option? Is it because biden loves genocide? Is he a fascist that demands genocide?

It's because a superpac (which is pro genocide) with nearly 100 million to spend will give it all to Trump if he doesn't appease them.

"We should only kill half the Palestinians" sure became valid pretty quickly. Must be a centrist.

ClayGuida posted...

You still running the charade of not voting? Cause lol, that's funny.

I was never running that charade because I've said a trillion times that I'm voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single fucking election. Are you intentionally not understanding or will it take a trillion more times of me telling you this?

WingsOfGood posted...

Because if you don't pick option 2 you get option 1 by default.

Only if you accept fascism as the only option.

someone bringing out pure bait I see

shnangyboos posted...

Don't insult centrism by suggesting that crap genuinely represents it.

There's three possible explanations - blind devotion to Biden, masked support of Israel, or a genuine belief that there's just no way to get a good outcome. The last one I can sympathize with, but the attitudes some posters have really make me suspect it's one of the other two. (And in a couple of the usual suspects' cases, they have indeed slipped up and exposed themself as pro-Israel in the past, though only one who I've noticed ITT and he basically just dropped one "wahh you don't know what you're talking about" post then vanished.)

Trump would do the same thing at the very least = "Yeah but uh Genocide Joe!"
Trump said he would deport all pro-Palestine protestors = "Yeah but uh Genocide Joe!"
Trump is an actual felon on top of all that = "Yeah but uh Genocide Joe!"

These people cannot be reasoned with

1337toothbrush posted...

Only if you accept fascism as the only option.

???
the point is you choose not to vote Biden, Trump wins.

If you want to tease Biden and pretend you won't vote for him so he will change go ahead and do that but when it comes time to vote, know that abstaining means option 1, total anhilation of Palestine because Trump literally says most of those people are terrorists and it is the largest haven of terrorism ON THE PLANET. And he told people in Minnesota those people are so bad that if brought over as refugees they would make an Oct 7 attack IN AMERICA.

shnangyboos posted...

"We should only kill half the Palestinians" sure became valid pretty quickly. Must be a centrist.

It's the goddamn trolly problem, where the choice is a genocide of some Palestinians (D) or a genocide of all Palestinians (R).

Nobody is getting better foreign policy out of the US than this goddamn mess until after the GOP is dead and buried.

And while we're at it, AIPAC needs to be buried too, which isn't a small project.

WingsOfGood posted...

???
the point is you choose not to vote Biden, Trump wins.

If you want to tease Biden and pretend you won't vote for him so he will change go ahead and do that but when it comes time to vote, know that abstaining means option 1, total anhilation of Palestine because Trump literally says most of those people are terrorists and it is the largest haven of terrorism ON THE PLANET. And he told people in Minnesota those people are so bad that if brought over as refugees they would make an Oct 7 attack IN AMERICA.

None of this has anything to do with biden himself. Is biden without agency? Is he powerless to stop the genocide?