Board 8 > What four games are on the NES Mount Rushmore?

(+) Yeah! (+)

that... isn't actually selling the game, no. it was initially a flop, viewed as a flop, and nintendo carried it into households with the subscriptions. people didn't care for dragon quest globally.

LightningStrikes posted...

If we factor in sales then it should be noted that Dragon Quest 1 sold 3 million on NES, which is not that far from 3s so its not like a FFVII situation where one game towers over the others. More importantly, Dragon Quest 1 sold MUCH better than 3 in North America at a stonking 1.5 million copies, of which a million were part of a subscription deal with Nintendo Power which is itself pretty notable. Even excluding that though it still outsold 3 in North America roughly five to one. The popularity of 3 was driven purely by Japan, while 1 was more of a global hit.

Well DQ3 came out in the west after the SNES was already out so it was kind of a tough sell

The Legend of Zelda
Super Mario Bros.
Final Fantasy
MOTHER

there's like six games I can imagine in that fourth slot and I can't choose so I'm just gonna say "fuck it" and go with a game that I just think is "neat" :)

Nominate Arcade games

Metal_DK posted...

edit: anyone putting dragon quest 3 over dragon quest 1 is just wrong if they are going the "most influential jrpg" route

No its definitely 3. Unless youre arguing FF1 is more influential than FF7 because it was first

LightningStrikes posted...

If we factor in sales then it should be noted that Dragon Quest 1 sold 3 million on NES, which is not that far from 3s so its not like a FFVII situation where one game towers over the others. More importantly, Dragon Quest 1 sold MUCH better than 3 in North America at a stonking 1.5 million copies, of which a million were part of a subscription deal with Nintendo Power which is itself pretty notable. Even excluding that though it still outsold 3 in North America roughly five to one. The popularity of 3 was driven purely by Japan, while 1 was more of a global hit.

Yeah but its influence was specifically on the JRPG genre, which werent really developed in the west for a long time so Im not sure why getting 1 million sales thanks to a magazine makes it comparable

Super Mario Bros. 3
The Legend of Zelda
Mega Man 2
Contra

Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 3
Legend of Zelda
Kirby's Adventure

That last one is probably just my own bias, but it's really advanced for an NES game. Compare that to Donkey Kong which couldn't even fit all 4 levels in.

Leonhart4 posted...

Maybe Zelda 1 missed out, too, but I specifically remember Mario 1 being mentioned as having enough nominations to make the bracket and not getting in.

Yes, Allen said the oldest game in top 100 nominations was Super Mario Bros and we all thought it was in because of that. Then he gave games per year and it wasn't there to which he gave the response about metacritic. I have no recollection of Zelda 1 being mentioned ever, Mario 1 100% was.

The Dragon Quest 3 discussion feels like when people try to give some random artist from the 60s credit for creating rock forgetting that a lot of pieces were in place around that given artist.

I'm not saying it had no importance at all but I'm skeptical it was super important for console rpgs to exist. Normally I'd just say "well must be a Japan thing" but we got people comparing it to FF7 or SMB3 in this topic and I know that isn't right.

Super Mario Bros
Super Mario Bros 3
The Legend of Zelda
Punch-Out

I never owned an NES myself, but I knew the first three immediately. The last one is very difficult - a choice between Punch-Out, MM2, Duck Hunt, and Metroid. But I went with the one of those I actually played, so...

Super Mario Bros
Legend of Zelda
Final Fantasy
Metroid

The arguments that "DQ3 is only major in Japan" is kinda strange, considering Japan is the leading country in developing video games.

Yeah I dont want to tip my hand too much for later but the popularity of FFVII at the time cannot be overstated. If FFVII comes out the exact same and sells say the same amount as VI plus a proportional amount in Europe, it would still be a very respected, very influential game but it wouldnt be Final Fantasy VII. It wouldnt be a lock for the PS1 Mount Rushmore and might not even get on. None of the NES Dragon Quests got close to that level worldwide. And indeed very few games did!

Hbthebattle posted...

No its definitely 3. Unless youre arguing FF1 is more influential than FF7 because it was first

the only difference there is the 2d -> 3d factor. But DQ1 is definitely more influential than DQ3.

Oh wait, I was wrong. SMB1 must have been the game that was mentioned in 2015, since I just unlocked a memory of people going "Do we need *another* Mario game in the bracket?" and I remember thinking, "Do we need *both* Galaxy games? It could replace one of them."

I know nothing about DQ, but would people argue that FF1 was more important and influential than FF4? Because I'd say 4 had more impact and its influence is felt on the series more now, and it might be a bigger deal to the genre.

Like I don't think you can just look at sales numbers because that ignores the impact a game might have on developers.

I just think if you're comparing DQ3 to SMB3 or FF7 you're just warning me your argument needs to be taken with a lot of salt. That's all. It has nothing to do with "only popular in Japan" and more to do with "please realize analogies cease to be useful if the scope for your comparison is completely wrong"

Like I don't actually know if it's right to consider it here or not but I do know its importance is being inflated by at least some people voting it by having the audacity to compare it to those other games which were orders of magnitude bigger.

Lopen posted...

The Dragon Quest 3 discussion feels like when people try to give some random artist from the 60s credit for creating rock forgetting that a lot of pieces were in place around that given artist.

I'm not saying it had no importance at all but I'm skeptical it was super important for console rpgs to exist. Normally I'd just say "well must be a Japan thing" but we got people comparing it to FF7 or SMB3 in this topic and I know that isn't right.

DQ3 was a cultural phenomenon in Japan. It made DQ mainstream instead of being something only gamers really knew about. Huge lines outside stores on the release date, so many people skipping work and school it became a problem, Enix stopped releasing games on weekdays because so many kids skipped school to buy it, etc. It broke all kinds of sales records when it came out. It's impact isn't even limited to JRPGS, hell it's not even limited to video games. It had a massive impact on Japanese media and pop culture as a whole. It still regularly places first in Dragon Quest series fan rankings. The DQ3 hero is in Smash, not the DQ1 guy. Tons of anime and other media reference DQ3. It's the best selling game in the series if you include the remakes.

Not that I blame anyone outside of Japan for not knowing how big of a deal it was, but even gameplay wise I think it's pretty clearly more influential on the future of the genre than DQ1 was.

Lopen posted...

Normally I'd just say "well must be a Japan thing"

In Japan DQ3 is culturally the most important (or 2nd-most important after FF7) JRPG to ever exist. It influenced LOTS of things. This goes beyond games - lots of other fantasy media, especially manga and anime, take all their cues from Dragon Quest III to this day.

Outside of Japan, it's still incredibly important. Even if the game itself didn't sell like gangbusters in the west, it has influenced essentially all JRPGs since it came out, including the ones we did take to. DQ3 laid the groundwork for the genre as a whole. FF7 is probably more influential overall due to how it shifted the genre's focus to cinematic storytelling, but it's a close race.

The original Dragon Quest is extremely bare bones by comparison and didn't set nearly as many themes/gameplay mechanics in stone. Leon's FF1/FF4 comparison is a good one.

What did DQ III even do for gameplay outside of its own series? Final Fantasy did classes first.

For the record I think Dragon Quest is a poor rep because it's so barebones it scarcely resembles the current jRPG genre any more than stuff like Ultima and Wizardry but I can at least see where people are coming from with "first"

Final Fantasy is probably my RPG vote from the NES due to it saving Square but I'm honestly leaning just not having any RPG reps from the NES because honestly it just didn't matter enough back then and much like I think rock exists without The Who or The Rolling Stones I think RPGs exist without Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest 3.

Lopen posted...

I just think if you're comparing DQ3 to SMB3 or FF7 you're just warning me your argument needs to be taken with a lot of salt. That's all.

In terms of influence on its genre DQ3 is more important to the development of JPRGs than SMB3 was to the development of platformers. Full stop. SMB3 is probably the more popular game overall, obviously, but in terms of genre importance, there were a lot of platformers on the NES, including SMB1 and 2 different SMB2s.

Hbthebattle posted...

In terms of influence on its genre DQ3 is more important to the development of JPRGs than SMB3 was to the development of platformers. Full stop. SMB3 is probably the more popular game overall, obviously, but in terms of genre importance, there were a lot of platformers on the NES, including SMB1 and 2 different SMB2s.

What did Dragon Quest 3 introduce that FF1 had not already

I think thats selling Dragon Quest 1 incredibly short. It invented the console RPG, which effectively gives it responsibility for an entire genre. Its fine to say that Dragon Quest 3 was also very influential on the genre but Dragon Quest 1 was foundational. Even the FF1/FF4 comparison doesnt work because Dragon Quest 1 was a much bigger deal than FF1.

Also, this whole topic series has been full of well Mount Rushmore is an American concept! when talking about cereals or pies or whatever but now suddenly its all about Japan to the exclusion of the rest of the world!

Hbthebattle posted...

In terms of influence on its genre DQ3 is more important to the development of JPRGs than SMB3 was to the development of platformers. Full stop. SMB3 is probably the more popular game overall, obviously, but in terms of genre importance, there were a lot of platformers on the NES, including SMB1 and 2 different SMB2s.

Ok, I accept the cultural influence it had in Japan. But what specifically did it innovate in terms of game development? Remember Final Fantasy came out first. What does DQ III even do that wasnt being done by Final Fantasy?

Lopen posted...

What did Dragon Quest 3 introduce that FF1 had not already

DQ3 is the first game to have Classes be what JRPGs use them as today - skillsets where you can swap in and out of them, building your own ideal team. Notably, all of the class based FF games like 3 or 5 are using this system, rather than FF1's, which is really just picking 4 characters at the start of the game but not being able to change them on the fly or influence their growth.

Like, Final Fantasy was not that big of a game. It sold well enough to keep Square afloat, but Square becoming a juggernaut happened way later. It is not in the competition on its own merits but acting as a proxy for the later, more important games.

Just wait for the SNES/PS1/PS2 rushmores for your FF fix, guys.

Hbthebattle posted...

DQ3 is the first game to have Classes be what JRPGs use them as today - skillsets where you can swap in and out of them, building your own ideal team. Notably, all of the class based FF games like 3 or 5 are using this system, rather than FF1's, which is really just picking 4 characters at the start of the game but not being able to change them on the fly or influence their growth.

Honest question do you think this wouldn't come naturally without Dragon Quest though.

I realize it's notable to be the first but it's also an extremely logical progression of the class system

It's like saying platformers would never use multiple power ups without SMB3 because we'd just stick with Fire Flower all day

Hbthebattle posted...

In terms of influence on its genre DQ3 is more important to the development of JPRGs than SMB3 was to the development of platformers. Full stop. SMB3 is probably the more popular game overall, obviously, but in terms of genre importance, there were a lot of platformers on the NES, including SMB1 and 2 different SMB2s.

Strongly disagree, but the fact that there's a probably in the sentence stating that SMB3 was more popular than DQ3 also reads like the former is being undersold quite heavily.

I think I agree with the statement that NES don't really need a RPG rep.

Oh Im not sure FF makes it onto the SNES Rushmore. Tough competition.

I have Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! on my list and no RPGs and stand by that so my horse is no horse I'm just saying if I had a horse I'd probably pick FF1

"Somebody would've invented it later anyway" isn't a viable counterargument

LightningStrikes posted...

Oh Im not sure FF makes it onto the SNES Rushmore. Tough competition.

I mean, I assume there will be A JRPG there. But whether it's FF, Chrono Trigger, or maybe Earthbound remains to be seen.

LightningStrikes posted...

Oh Im not sure FF makes it onto the SNES Rushmore. Tough competition.

Well, I imagine CT is the RPG rep for the SNES, but FFIV should definitely be in contention.

LightningStrikes posted...

Oh Im not sure FF makes it onto the SNES Rushmore. Tough competition.

What, do you think most of us won't just put four JRPGs on the SNES (and PS1) Rushmore?

I'm just saying that if you're putting FF1 on this rushmore while also having complained about Xenoblade back on the Wii rushmore, you're a hypocrite. It's in basically the same situation, except it wasn't the most critically acclaimed game on the system or its most relevant new IP.

Hbthebattle posted...

DQ3 is the first game to have Classes be what JRPGs use them as today - skillsets where you can swap in and out of them, building your own ideal team. Notably, all of the class based FF games like 3 or 5 are using this system, rather than FF1's, which is really just picking 4 characters at the start of the game but not being able to change them on the fly or influence their growth.

In addition to this, Dragon Quest 3 set the standard for overall world/environment gameplay design. This is something that's difficult to describe but becomes apparent if you play the game and compare it to what came after. The overall ebb and flow of JRPG pacing comes mostly from DQ3.

It is definitely too early to give the game away but even though I think I prefer FFVI, there is probably only space for one RPG on the SNES Rushmore and its probably going to be Chrono Trigger.

Although if the argument is 'the NES doesn't need RPG representation' I guess that's fine, but considering how many votes there are for the progenitor of a dead series (Mega Man 2) I'm not sure I buy the sentiment.

Leonhart4 posted...

"Somebody would've invented it later anyway" isn't a viable counterargument

It absolutely is if the invention isn't actually that inventive. You're basically just giving more freedom of timing and choice to the framework that already exists. FF1 already had class change mechanics built into it it just didn't let you do it freely.

I personally dont see myself putting any FF game over Chrono Trigger for the SNES Rushmore

Speaking of
If youre voting Mega Man 2, youre also hypocritical for complaining about people voting DQ3>1, because 80% of MM2s gameplay traces back to Mega Man 1.

Also while were just openly discussing the SNES any of Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country, and A Link to the Past would be much bigger snubs than any of the RPGs. Actually there might be zero RPGs on there!

Lopen posted...

Super Mario Bros
Mega Man 2
Super Mario Bros 3
Mike Tyson's Punch Out!!

Change Mega Man 2 to Legend of Zelda

Im going to argue that the sleeper pick on the SNES in terms of being influential on the future is Super Metroid, which I think def belongs over DKC.

The best RPG rep on SNES is Mario RPG probably

But I'd probably give FF4 the nod over CT

Hbthebattle posted...

Im going to argue that the sleeper pick on the SNES in terms of being influential on the future is Super Metroid, which I think def belongs over DKC.

DKC was a technological marvel and the highest selling non-bundled game of the generation. It was also pivotal in the SNES coming out on top that generation. But Super Metroid definitely has a claim over the RPGs.

I mean I get it but not having a SNES RPG feels wrong given how many good ones came out on the system

maybe the right game to cut is Super Mario World then

Hbthebattle posted...

I mean I get it but not having a SNES RPG feels wrong given how many good ones came out on the system

maybe the right game to cut is Super Mario World then

you can make you're own choices. you don't have to pick the games other people tell you to