Current Events > what even is Middle Class anyway? like i genuinely dont know

(+) Yeah! (+)

is it just "owns a home"? is it "owns a million+ dollar home"? is it "makes X+ salary"?

does it depend on location? region, country, town, etc

A dead term from a couple decades ago.

DrizztLink posted...

A dead term from a couple decades ago.

what did it mean a couple decades ago?

It is a term invented by capitalists to stratify the working class and set them against each other.

SaikyoStyle posted...

It is a term invented by capitalists to stratify the working class and set them against each other.

ok i should clear something up

im looking for like, the neutral, intended definition

Man, Tankie CE is weird.

Anyway, it's not really a quantifiable term. Just people who live comfortably. Above the poverty line with all of their basic needs fulfilled but not wealthy enough to afford whatever luxury they want at any given time. Basically most people in the first world.

Dungeater posted...

what did it mean a couple decades ago?

Rich
Middle
Poor

Now it's

Rich
Poor

Terms are weird. It's just made up, so you have to understand the context behind what it means exactly on a case by case basis.

how is what they said tankie at all

can u guys cool it with the potshots at each other for one fucking minute my god

Middle class is generally a tier of person or family that has a salary range of 50,000K separate or 100,000K plus together annual income.
Lower class is 30K & below generally. But even people who make 120K+ think they're poor these days because of what things cost, so in essence with wealth in the hands of the Uber rich being about 93% give or take of the country's overall money, top 1% having it, the middle & lower class are hanging on by a snail's fart in the wind.

Basically:

• "Own" a home (usually via mortgate, unless you're old and paid it off)
• Salary ~ 3x or more the poverty level (what that is varies depending on if you're single, married, or a family), but still below the top 5% of income
• Have health care coverage
• Have some sort of retirement plan besides social security (pension, 401K, IRA, something...)
• Have at least 2 months of emergency savings in the bank

I don't know, I'd define it like that. You could add a bunch of implied societal stuff like being a nuclear family or going on vacation annually, but I tried to limit it to just economic situation stuff.

specialkid8 posted...

Man, Tankie CE is weird.

What's "tankie" about what's been said in this topic so far?

As for the topic at hand I believe it's intended to be someone who is a homeowner, making "decent" money (like living just fine with minimal worry) and have plans for their future.

You could also assume they have a decent paying job with good room for growth.

hereforemnant posted...

Middle class is generally a tier of person or family that has a salary range of 50,000K separate

100-150k mininum.

affordable housing apartments with 1 person listed is 50k income limit.
it goes toward the higher amount if make more, less if make less.

It's the families that are well off enough to not struggle, but not well off enough to be considered rich. So literally the families between rich and poor.

So typically, that meant they owned a home, owned a car, etc. Nowadays though with inflation and a huge chunk of the country living paycheck to paycheck, middle class looks different. According to Yahoo finance, anything from $50,000 to $150,000 is considered middle class (based on the median income in the country). And most people aren't going to be able to afford to buy a home on $50,000 a year, unless they live in a very low cost of living area.

kingdrake2 posted...

100-150k mininum.

affordable housing apartments with 1 person listed is 50k income limit.
it goes toward the higher amount if make more, less if make less.

I figured it's probably had the ceiling raised yeah & it's worse than I said it was

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

tldr; Middle-income households those with an income that is two-thirds to double the U.S. median household income had incomes ranging from about $48,500 to $145,500 in 2018

Dungeater posted...

what did it mean a couple decades ago?

Not poor, not rich.

specialkid8 posted...

Man, Tankie CE is weird.

What exactly in this topic led to you whining about "Tankie CE" lmao?

Should probably defer depending on age.

In terms of home ownership, it probably makes a big difference that we kinda have 2 separate groups of homeowners. Those who locked in low mortgages and interest rates from a couple years ago, and those who have higher rates costs now. And don't forget, most Americans (2/3) are homeowners.

This is kind of interesting as well. I'd probably increase the lower bound for middle income though
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/086a41a4.jpg

Dungeater posted...

what did it mean a couple decades ago?

Corey Matthews from Boy Meets world is middle class. Shawn Hunter was poor.

They had a two story house and lived comfortably. Shawn thought of them as rich in comparison.

Middle Class is slowly thinning out because of the economy and the government's favoritism towards the wealthy and by slowly thinning out, I mean its completely dead.

emblem-man posted...

Should probably defer depending on age.

In terms of home ownership, it probably makes a big difference that we kinda have 2 separate groups of homeowners. Those who locked in low mortgages and interest rates from a couple years ago, and those who have higher rates costs now.

This is kind of interesting as well. I'd probably increase the lower bound for middle income though
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/086a41a4.jpg

Yeah no anyone making less than 50000 shouldnt be considered middle these days

Murphiroth posted...

What exactly in this topic led to you whining about "Tankie CE" lmao?

Yeah, really.

(Socioeconomics topic)

"WOAH WHAT'S WITH THESE MAO ZEDONG SUPPORTIN' COMMIES IN THIS SOCIAL BOARD?"

I always thought of it as someone who owns a home and has a family but cant afford to lose their current job/income

Seaman_Prime posted...

I always thought of it as someone who owns a home and has a family but cant afford to lose their current job/income

That's the vast vast majority of people, even those who are making like 300k a year.
Seems wrong to call a 250k household middle class.

To paraphrase George Carlin:

The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes.

The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work.

The poor exist just to scare the shit out of the middle class.

It goes way beyond income since covid. Some people make 100k but got into a home at <3% interest and a car that went up in value vs. someone making 200k but didn't buy until 2022 at <5% interest and the same car $20k higher. It's very possible the person making less income is better off financially.

Like my HH is ~350k but that income was half that last year (both got new jobs) so we're in that "bought recently and getting fucked by interest rates and inflation" camp. My mortgage would be half what it is 4 years ago but I didn't make enough then to buy. Yes we can eat big payments on the current income but I still don't feel comfortable and don't feel like I can easily save a lot.

theAteam posted...

It goes way beyond income since covid. Some people make 100k but got into a home at <3% interest and a car that went up in value vs. someone making 200k but didn't buy until 2022 at <5% interest and the same car $20k higher. It's very possible the person making less income is better off financially.

Like my HH is ~350k but that income was half that last year (both got new jobs) so we're in that "bought recently and getting fucked by interest rates and inflation" camp. My mortgage would be half what it is 4 years ago but I didn't make enough then to buy. Yes we can eat big payments on the current income but I still don't feel comfortable and don't feel like I can easily save a lot.

Are you accounting for retirement savings and things like that? I get all of what you're saying, but I do feel like some higher income people forget that if they're maxing out retirement funds and IRA, they're already ahead of the vast vast majority of people. But because that saving is done before they see their paycheck, they don't really count it as "savings"

Yeah that is short term and cyclic. It always happens after every crash.

The middle class has been dying since Reagan.

I understand the term was originally (18th century) for people who were not in the nobility but had a good amount of money (so were not peasants).
It generally came to apply to people who professionals, white-collar workers and similar

emblem-man posted...

Are you accounting for retirement savings and things like that? I get all of what you're saying, but I do feel like some higher income people forget that if they're maxing out retirement funds and IRA, they're already ahead of the vast vast majority of people. But because that saving is done before they see their paycheck, they don't really count it as "savings"

Yes you are right in that sense. We also have a lot of debt most don't from my wife's law school loans that factor into our personal equation. But I guess that's my point, the whole picture needs to be looked at not just income alone.

You're not living paycheck to paycheck but you still have to actually work.

I do agree with the idea of there essentially being 2 sets of homeowners at this point due to the high interest, as I mention below.

Also, inheritance will be an interesting aspect of all this stuff in the next decade for millennials

emblem-man posted...

Should probably defer depending on age.

In terms of home ownership, it probably makes a big difference that we kinda have 2 separate groups of homeowners. Those who locked in low mortgages and interest rates from a couple years ago, and those who have higher rates costs now. And don't forget, most Americans (2/3) are homeowners.

This is kind of interesting as well. I'd probably increase the lower bound for middle income though
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/086a41a4.jpg

emblem-man posted...

I do agree with the idea of there essentially being 2 sets of homeowners at this point due to the high interest, as I mention below.

Also, inheritance will be an interesting aspect of all this stuff in the next decade for millennials

You can refinance a mortgage so I dont agree with any of this.

divot1338 posted...

You can refinance a mortgage so I dont agree with any of this.

You can, which is what people did a couple years back. Let's see how low rates come down again and see if recent buyers get that opportunity.

But the majority of home owners bought prior to this recent housing increase, so they've definitely been a bit insulated from some of the housing costs issue that younger people might be facing.

If you are a wage laborer, if you need to work to pay bills, if you don't live off an inheritance or stock, you're working class.

Middle class is a meaningless badge people pin on themselves so they can feel that they're above being poor when they're just as subject to the whims of capital and the business cycle as anyone else.

emblem-man posted...

You can, which is what people did a couple years back. Let's see how low rates come down again and see if recent buyers get that opportunity.

But the majority of home owners bought prior to this recent housing increase, so they've definitely been a bit insulated from some of the housing costs issue that younger people might be facing.

The last 10 years or so of low interest rates really have been unique

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e4ffce7a.jpg

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/818962b5.jpg

emblem-man posted...

The last 10 years or so of low interest rates really have been unique

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e4ffce7a.jpg

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/818962b5.jpg

Yes but your argument is that somehow there has been an underlying change to the economy that prevents it from ever returning to normal.

Let's see how low rates come down again and see if recent buyers get that opportunity.

And no one anywhere has pointed to anything that would lead us to believe that is the case.

One that no longer exists.

Being able to own a property/mortgage, pay bills and utilities, food expenses, put a bit into retirement and put a bit into savings.

Thats middle class

divot1338 posted...

Yes but your argument is that somehow there has been an underlying change to the economy that prevents it from ever returning to normal.

And no one anywhere has pointed to anything that would lead us to believe that is the case.

I don't really know what I think will happen. I think my overall point was just that the middle class is actually quite big if your main definition is home ownership, and that I think we underestimate just how many people actually have relatively low housing costs. The increase in housing has impacted renters and new homeowners the most.

ClayGuida posted...

Rich
Middle
Poor

Now it's

Rich
Poor

I am neither rich nor poor

People who actually own where they live, in America usually being in a Suburb of some sort, but can't afford fancy yachts or other "rich people" things. Maybe have a jet-ski though.

emblem-man posted...

I don't really know what I think will happen. I think my overall point was just that the middle class is actually quite big if your main definition is home ownership, and that I think we underestimate just how many people actually have relatively low housing costs. The increase in housing has impacted renters and new homeowners the most.

Home ownership is not a prerequisite of the middle class. In fact I would argue that very few of us really own homes when you consider how much more of it the bank owns.

Many economists believe that politicians in the 80s, 90s and 00s pushing home ownership is the primary factor causing the decline in the middle class.

divot1338 posted...

Home ownership is not a prerequisite of the middle class. In fact I would argue that very few of us really own homes when you consider how much more of it the bank owns.

Many economists believe that politicians in the 80s, 90s and 00s pushing home ownership is the primary factor causing the decline in the middle class.

I don't think that should be a prerequisite either, but it seems to be the one many people in here are using, so I'm just going with it.

Note that I'm someone who thinks that home ownership being people's primary wealth building item is a travesty that's helped make housing costs unbearably high for people.

what even is Middle Class anyway? like i genuinely don't know

specialkid8 posted...

Just people who live comfortably. Above the poverty line with all of their basic needs fulfilled but not wealthy enough to afford whatever luxury they want at any given time.

Mostly that. New Atlantis in the game 'Starfield' is the perfect example. Middle class is anyone living in the city proper, but anything below that is milling around in the Well.

emblem-man posted...

I don't think that should be a prerequisite either, but it seems to be the one many people in here are using, so I'm just going with it.

Note that I'm someone who thinks that home ownership being people's primary wealth building item is a travesty that's helped make housing costs unbearably high for people.

A house is an asset just like any other. Anyone who ascribes more to it than that is the kind of person who will get wiped out by a bad mortgage.