Current Events > The Cry to Vote 'uncommitted'

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Rika_Furude posted...

Thats already been tried here and people ignore it

Humble_Novice posted...

Sadly this. Some people are too blinded by their hatred of Biden to even see the threat posed by the far right.

Which do you think is more common here and elsewhere? It's 99 parts condescension and fear mongering to one part saying anything about a Biden second term.

It's not that they don't see the threat posed by the far right, we see it and we're flabbergasted that the threat isn't being taken seriously by simply doing popular things and refraining from doing unpopular things.

You, for example, Humble Novice spend 50x more time attacking the left than you do advocating for what Biden will be like in 2025. I don't think I've ever seen you post that. At best, you and others try to point to small scale things he's doing now or has done with the explicit or implicit message that it is enough or something huge.

legendary_zell posted...

Which do you think is more common here and elsewhere? It's 99 parts condescension and fear mongering to one part saying anything about a Biden second term.

It's not that they don't see the threat posed by the far right, we see it and we're flabbergasted that the threat isn't being taken seriously by simply doing popular things and refraining from doing unpopular things.

You, for example, Humble Novice spend 50x more time attacking the left than you do advocating for what Biden will be like in 2025. I don't think I've ever seen you post that. At best, you and others try to point to small scale things he's doing now or has done with the explicit or implicit message that it is enough or something huge.

I totally understand the condescension when it comes to people either being undecided or not voting for Biden in November as a protest. If you recognize the threat Trump winning poses, as many of these people claim to, youd understand that keeping things as they are is just objectively better than throwing america to the GOP dictatorship. Thats not to say there arent problems with Biden, such as his Israel stance.

A lukewarm candidate vs a literal fascist shouldnt take this much convincing for people claiming BOTH SIDES

CountCorvinus posted...

It's not me you have to worry about, nor is it the republican voters. It's the people who don't vote that you need to listen to. Threatening them doesn't work. "But the other guy is worse" is not the winning campaign strategy you think it is.

The people who dont vote aren't worth listening to as they are the same people confused woman issues are under attack, but still support their big brained decision in 2016/2018/2020 of not voting.

Elections have consequences regardless if the 2 candidates aren't perfect, and they aren't checking every box you desire. You aren't explaining something like that to grown ass adults who promote staying home and doing nothing will magically make things go your way or better..... after it got worse.... essentially putting several steps backward on reversing said damage.

Especially those who think "the other guy is worse" is the only takeaway. Anyone's takeaway being, "the other guy is worse" you mind as well be talking to a "same thing both sides" type as those type willfully ignore all of the good Biden has done in 3 years. Many progressive policies have been pushed by this administration, but the non voters and swing voters only focus is the bad or what their favorite tiktoker told them.

legendary_zell posted...

You, for example, Humble Novice spend 50x more time attacking the left than you do advocating for what Biden will be like in 2025.

The online left is not immune to criticism, so why should they be coddled? The fact that they prefer attacking liberals more than conservatives says a lot about them.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I totally understand the condescension when it comes to people either being undecided or not voting for Biden in November as a protest. If you recognize the threat Trump winning poses, as many of these people claim to, youd understand that keeping things as they are is just objectively better than throwing america to the GOP dictatorship. Thats not to say there arent problems with Biden, such as his Israel stance.

A lukewarm candidate vs a literal fascist shouldnt take this much convincing for people claiming BOTH SIDES

This is the exact dynamic that occurred in 2016. You could copy and paste this message to March 2016 almost without a change.

I don't support anyone in a swing state protest voting in the general. Not even the Chapo Traphouse guys, DSA, the Squad, hell, the Communist Party thinks Biden wouldn't be better than Trump. But it's suicidal to continue down the current path like everything is peachy keen. Because the people who are the true issue are not necessarily even any of those people or their supporters. It's presidential year undecided voters who will be too disgusted or apathetic to pull the lever for Biden. That's what we're ultimately saying. And the response to that is condescension and repeating the same ineffective phrases louder.

Humble_Novice posted...

The online left is not immune to criticism, so why should they be coddled? The fact that they prefer attacking liberals more than conservatives says a lot about them.

This is a pure strawman and essentially trolling. I never made any argument that is contained in this post. You're changing the subject from my very clear views to do exactly what I was criticizing you for, attacking leftists rather than supporting Biden.

Your approach courts defeat and disaster, period. People taking your approach pose as if they're realists who understand politics, but you don't seem to understand the basics and anything outside of the specific way you conceptualize things deserves only derision in your eyes.

Do popular things, avoid unpopular things, support your candidate. It's not hard and yet none of you can seem to do it.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This is simply not true.

Ronald Reagan withheld the delivery of jets to pressure Israel into deescalating violence in Lebanon:
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/21/world/reagan-delays-jets-israel-us-6-allies-urge-all-side-middleast-cease-reprisals.html

George HW Bush threatened to withhold aid to Israel to pressure them into peace talks:
https://www.inquisitr.com/5195235/george-hw-bushs-tough-stance-on-israel-helped-bring-middle-east-closer-to-peace-than-ever-before

There is direct precedent. Biden has plenty of leverage over Israel for pressure. Him not doing so is a choice, not an inevitability.

As to why now: the current escalation is the deadliest in Israel/Palestine by far. We're over 30,000 deaths and that number looks like it will rise quickly with thousands still missing under the rubble, health care nearly entirely shutdown and a quarter million people at risk of being starved.

Israel has committed many atrocities over the years, but this one is unparalleled. This is not just business as usual in Gaza, it's an absolute massacre. Very much a valid reason for a US president to change course. Especially when his own voter base wants him to.

legendary_zell posted...

This is a pure strawman

I'd argue what he said wasn't complete strawman.
First I'd like to start with saying my post isnt saying most of the left. Just a small loud minority that can cause a lot of noise like Breanna Joy, Kyle Kelinski, TTY, and their loyal followers. So to be clear my post is absolutely not about the overwhelming majority of the left. Just the loud minority who love to agree with Republicans for their own reasons.

A portion of the left absolutely does love shooting themselves in the foot.

Just like 2016, a portion sang in chorus with Republicans.

They take waaaay too much merit in their political polls which have not been reliable in the past decade. So much that they seem to confuse political polls with US government, politics, and foreign relations. Nevermind political polls reliability, polls simply do not dictate if something will realistically work in domestic and foreign affairs the way they think it should.

They seem to not grasp political polls do not decide who wins the election, the actual elections decide who wins the elections. Yet they will comically keep pointing at a political poll why their pick shouldn't lose or could have won with some even going the Trump route of claiming elections were in some way rigged against their pick. Oh but don't question them about turnout for their picks they are convinced is the most popular.

They act baffled and confused why "centrist" say "something both sides" but in the same breath regurgitate rhetoric Republicans say (regardless if the reasons are different)... so no shit swing/center voters pick up messaging from them. A portion of the left even regurgitate, "same thing both sides." Just look at the "Biden is old" rhetoric and how long it took for the loud minority to acknowledge Trump is old too, you aren't helping anything focusing only on Bidens age.

A portion of the left is highly idealistic on how shit can get done. For example those who still demand Biden cancel student debt. Which again, many will point at a poll as if that matters on it realistically happening. It has to pass Congress, not a beloved poll they like.

A portion of the left as a continuation of the last one, refuse to acknowledge any steps in the right direction. Again student debts. Biden doesn't have the magic authority they were so convinced he had, but has still forgiven a lot of students debt despite being blocked by the courts to forgive their specific debt. But again, "it's not enough" so it's, "nothing." These types of people would rather take 3 steps backwards than 1 step forward. Because again, "unless it's 3 steps forward, it's not enough."

Again on the idealism, they severely don't understand the 2 party system isn't going away, and elections have consequences regardless if the better option of the 2 doesn't check every box you want.

LightningThief posted...

I'd argue what he said wasn't complete strawman.
First I'd like to start with saying my post isnt saying most of the left. Just a small loud minority that can cause a lot of noise like Breanna Joy, Kyle Kelinski, TTY, and their loyal followers. So to be clear my post is absolutely not about the overwhelming majority of the left. Just the loud minority who love to agree with Republicans for their own reasons.

A portion of the left absolutely does love shooting themselves in the foot.

Just like 2016, a portion sang in chorus with Republicans.

They take waaaay too much merit in their political polls which have not been reliable in the past decade. So much that they seem to confuse political polls with US government, politics, and foreign relations.

They seem to not grasp political polls do not decide who wins the election, the actual elections decide who wins the elections. Yet they will comically keep pointing at a political poll why their pick shouldn't lose or could have won with some even going the Trump route of claiming elections were in some way rigged against their pick. Oh but don't question them about turnout for their picks they are convinced is the most popular.

They act baffled and confused why "centrist" say "something both sides" but in the same breath regurgitate rhetoric Republicans say (regardless if the reasons are different)... so no shit swing/center voters pick up. A portion of the left even regurgitate, "same thing both sides."

A portion of the left is highly idealistic on how shit can get done. For example those who still demand Biden cancel student debt. Which again, many will point at a poll as if that matters on it realistically happening. It has to pass Congress, not a beloved poll they like.

A portion of the left as a continuation of the last one, refuse to acknowledge any steps in the right direction. Again student debts. Biden doesn't have the magic authority they were so convinced he had, but has still forgiven a lot of students debt despite being blocked by the courts to forgive their specific debt. But again, "it's not enough" so it's, "nothing." These types of people would rather take 3 steps backwards than 1 step forward. Because again, "unless it's 3 steps forward, it's not enough."

Again on the idealism, they severely don't understand the 2 party system isn't going away, and elections have consequences regardless if the better option of the 2 doesn't check every box you want.

It's a strawman, not because some on the left aren't worthy of criticism but because it literally has nothing to do with any argument I've made in this topic. It's the definition of a strawman because it substituted the arguments I've made with arguments he'd prefer to have.

I wish you'd redirect the energy you used to dunk on a small faction of the left in this post and used it to urge Biden to do popular things and to refrain from doing unpopular things or to say how Biden will benefit everyone in 2026.

legendary_zell posted...

I wish you'd redirect the energy you used to dunk on a small faction of the left in this post and used it to urge Biden to do popular things and to refrain from doing unpopular things or to say how Biden will benefit everyone in 2026.

I already addressed this in this topic and some of it in my last post. Including the false sense that popular means easily possible in domestic and foreign affairs. Also addressed idealistic mindset of, popular.

LightningThief posted...

I already addressed this in this topic and some of it in my last post. Including the false sense that popular means easily possible in domestic and foreign affairs. Also addressed idealistic mindset of, popular.

What is your evidence that people on the left conflate popularity with ease? I think we understand that many of these things are charged and would bring substantial controversy and that domestic changes are often difficult.

On the Gaza issue specifically though, since it's an issue of foreign affairs, the President has nearly unlimited discretion as we've already seen with the discretion Biden has used to support Israel and how historically, Presidents can unilaterally put pressure of foreign allies when they want to.

legendary_zell posted...

What is your evidence that people on the left conflate popularity with ease?

I already gave an example, student debt. The portion of the left I'm talking about, were very vocal and upset Biden didn't forgive student debt, more specifically their student debt. Those same people swore up and down and some still swear up and down Biden can do it and chooses not to. They are also quick to cite political polls as their supporting argument, as if the poll matters when discussing is it possible to be done.

Just look at Congress the last session and that same portion of the left outraged Democrats didn't pass xyz. The same portion that happily cite polls why it should be able to pass and cite that as a reason to not vote next election. This same group fails to grasp, it was 50 Republicans and only 2 Democrats blocking things.

Or those who think we can just completely drop support of Israel because they think the idea is popular.

Or the same portion that argues Bernie won or should have won or was stolen from him.

My point is it's not just conflating it with ease, it conflating popularity period with how politics and government works. Popularity to them is conflated with it can be done, and if it's not done they justify people not voting and act baffled shit is harder to reverse. It's pure idealism. Elections have consequences, regardless if the dream boat willy they think is popular doesn't win/pass.

Breanna Joy, Rose Twitter, or Kyle Kelinskis in particular usually have something out of their wheelhouse every 1 to 3 months that regurgitate Republican talking points (for different reasons).

Over conflating political polls or populism with how domestic and foreign political affairs, and how real policy is passed and negotiated.

I wonder why GOP voting block never complain about being taken for granted?

CobraGT posted...

I wonder why GOP voting block never complain about being taken for granted?

Republicans drifting far right and kowtowing to the extremists has been an unmitigated disaster for our country. Your solution to the house being on fire is to start swinging a wrecking ball at it?

I said, meant and was asking what I posted. Why?

Where do I say GOP voters should act this way?

CobraGT posted...

I wonder why GOP voting block never complain about being taken for granted?

The conservative pathology is "I don't care about how bad I'm getting fucked as long as someone else is getting fucked worse". Institutional cruelty against an other is all they want, and the GOP does it in spades. 90% of GOP infighting is started by a group that thinks that there needs to be more cruelty. Additionally, conservatives worship power above all else, so they're happy to fall in line.

Humble_Novice posted...

The online left is not immune to criticism, so why should they be coddled? The fact that they prefer attacking liberals more than conservatives says a lot about them.

And yet you never post a criticism on Biden or his supporters.