Current Events > DnDer - In response to your post in the Israel topic re: Hamas.

(+) Yeah! (+)

@DnDer - your post

I don't think that call to action will have nearly as much power if Israel stops being the bad guy.

Why would anyone with their basic needs met (plus the basic need of not being genocided) along with having open ports and infrastructure in place want to join a violent and dangerous mission to annihilate someone who has f***ed off and left them alone.

There's no leverage for hamas to use to make that call to action appealing for normal people. They wouldn't exactly be toothless, but a two-state solution with Israel being forced to rebuild what they razed... kicks the feet out from most of hamas's position.

And that begins a radical political sea change away from violence and fundamentalism.

I feel like I already answered that in my previous post:

I don't feel placing trust in Hamas to act in good faith is workable. Because Hamas will literally do anything to prevent losing power - including attacking Israel to provoke a response. We can argue that in their minds they feel they are justified for doing these heinous acts (which is a complex moral philosophical debate in of itself) but if we are being "pragmatic" I just feel the need to reiterate I personally do not think Hamas will go quietly.

To add to that

I feel you put too much emphasis on the aftermath of Gaza being 100% self governing and Israel pulling out completely and completely ignore that with Hamas in place they wont allow that to happen. I dont disagree that in a 100% free Gaza there would be less reason for people to support Hamas. I think where we disagree is despite claiming to be pragmatic you are over simplifying the road in getting there.

I believe Hamas itself will be a roadblock to get to that outcome.

If you feel Im wrong in that fundamental point we may just have to agree to disagree.

SHRlKE posted...

I don't feel placing trust in Hamas to act in good faith is workable.

You don't have to put any trust in Hamas. They become as toothless and untenable as libertarians, with effectively no power in the new post-two-state structure.

They'll be as neutered as a Republican House. Let them caw all they want, but they won't have the mandate to succeed at their previous goals. So, even if they're "in power," they won't have any.

They don't even have the power to Project 2025 right now, and that's dependent on someone like them being in power. I don't think they have the capacity to set up the road blocks you predict once there's a free Gaza.

Then, you have a legitimate election as soon as possible, and watch them become even more vanishingly scarce.

I don't think you need to worry about hamas working in good faith because they don't even work anymore once you liberate the land from Israel. No Israel means no more Israeli backing, and no more Israeli backing means no more hamas, just for starters.

Their financial power disappears. Their soft power disappears. Their political reason for existing disappears.

I feel like you are completely missing the point.

You continue to talk about what will happen once Gaza is 100% free and I dont disagree if that were to happen Hamas would lose their support. We dont disagree with that at all.

Where we disagree and the point you seem to keep avoiding is that I dont see a roadmap for peace with Hamas still in place.

Ill make it simple.

I believe Hamas will sabotage any attempts for peace.

Thats not to say Netanyahu wont take advantage of even the smallest of scuffles to continue his campaign or even try and provoke Hamas.

He's part of the problem as well.