Current Events > Just read a book on WW2 and damn they didnt teach us shit

(+) Yeah! (+)

godofwar596 posted...

This, the Nanjing massacre is still one of the most horrific and brutal events Ive ever read about, upsets me just thinking about it

It really doesn't help that the Japanese elders continue to downplay their events in WWII.

Some teachers are there for a paycheck, history jobs are there usually for coaches who need a teaching gig while they do their coaching...

Some coaches do try hard in academics but most are there for the athletics since success there means way more money for schools...

As for WW2 most history classes these days gloss over it because their is little material in textbooks due to the books needing to cover everything in us history...

There also really isn't enough time to go over everything happening in WW2 much less Korea and Nam...

Usually you teach about the high points, Japan and the A bomb and Hitler and the Holocaust...

Now if you take a specialty course in college then you can spend 4 months just on WW2 alone...but usually secondary schools only what you to give the cliff notes version and then move on to the Cold War then Civil Rights then the 60s etc etc...

spikethedevil posted...

Does any US school teach much on Vietnam? I mean the US lost while being the bad guys and committing war crimes. Its like schools over here in the UK very much ignore the Empire and the horrible shit we did.

Really depends on the school and the area you live in. I lived in a pretty liberal area and we had two straight weeks as a High School Freshman on Vietnam with literally films that did not hold back on how gruesome it was. I remember being very burnt after watching these war films almost every day. It was hard to take.

There's plenty of time our curriculum is just fucked. IIRC we had 1 year of World History, 1 year of US history, and 1 year of Government class.

What it should be is 2 years world history and 1 year US history, and 1 year government where they teach you more than just US government. And the world history class should cover the world wars. And in that scenario, out of 18 months of world history I would imagine several weeks should be spent on WW2.

Schools just dont have time to get into all the detail and have to pick and choose what to cover. If you get interested you do reading on your own or take college level classes.

My father lived through WW2. He was 14 when Poland was invaded. He had been working for a Jewish family who got disappeared after the invasion. He then ended up at a German work camp. He worked on a farm until the Americans freed him. At which point he ended up with the American army helping in the medical tents which was traumatic for him. But he stayed because he had nowhere else to return to, he left home when he was young because there were too many kids and not enough food. Eventually was a driver for the army after the war in France and immigrated to the US after a general helped with that.

Schools are going to give you the very basic rundown on history, and often one that is decades behind the subject compared to modern scholarship. Even wikipedia is often behind historical subjects when it comes to scholarship which is why subreddits like askhistorians are a godsend because it allows professionals to interact with the public.

ElGatoBravo posted...

You should read about what Japan did to the Chinese people. It's no wonder China is still very racist towards anything from Japan to this day.

It's not just China, a lot of South East Asians (at the time) have a deep hatred for the Japanese for what they did. My grandpa (Vietnamese) and his friend (Indonesian) still say a lot of racist shit about the Japanese for what they did to Vietnam and Dutch East Indies.

Prestoff posted...

My grandpa (Vietnamese) and his friend (Indonesian) still say a lot of racist shit about the Japanese for what they did to Vietnam and Dutch East Indies.

Met an old Vietnamese veteran when I was young. He despised the Chinese much more than the Japanese and Americans.

mazingetter posted...

Met an old Vietnamese veteran when I was young. He despised the Chinese much more than the Japanese and Americans.

Yeah, the Vietnamese generally hate China, and with good reason. They occupied them for a thousand years.

Most US schools focus on European history for far too long, and thrn spend a lot of time in the US Civil war. By the time WW2 happens, all they have time for is Hitler was bad and maybe some pre-WW1 things about the politics then.

You are lucky if you make it to Vietnam .

A lot of that is war in general, not really specific to WW2.

The most striking things I've learned that weren't in school curriculum is just how many nazis and Japanese imperialists avoided taking responsibility for the atrocities they took part in

clyde_frog posted...

I never learned about WW2 or even Vietnam in school. My history classes from grade school through high school always stopped once we hit the 20th century. It was really bizarre. The only exception was when we covered the Iraq war freshman year.

It was similar for me, they rushed the 20th century

mazingetter posted...

Met an old Vietnamese veteran when I was young. He despised the Chinese much more than the Japanese and Americans.

What you said is 100% true as well, but just stating in general a lot of South East Asian vets greatly dislike the Japanese for their conquest because they were there to feel the effects.

With that said, both sides of my Vietnamese family is very anti-Chinese Communist, which plays a big role why they vote Republican because they fell for the anti-Communist propaganda by the Right that conflates socialism with communism, very similiar to why Cubans tend to vote Republican.

I was in AP World & US History in High school so fortunately they didn't shy away from these topics.

There's always more details from all of the wars mentioned than can be reasonably taught within a dedicated unit. You could make an entire degree off of just WWII history alone.

I'll probably hold off on reading "rise and fall of third Reich"...it's 57 hours on audible.

I actually audibled this book I'm posting about and it was like 36 hours I think and tbh that's so long I started zoning out on some sections in the middle.

I actually bought the book so I intend to read it again in more detail aka looking up things I'm not familiar with as I go.

I always have 1 nightstand book I read a little bit at a time every night and I have 1 audible book that I listen to on my commutes.

Next I'ma read the second book the the Susan Bauer world history series. I enjoyed the first one. It wasn't super in depth but it was a nice summary.

There are a sizable number of ignorant ones who think Hitler "only" killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust and nobody else, even though 12 million+ people died in the Holocaust as well as over 20 million Soviets. I guess this came out of the Cold War era's need to vilify the USSR at every opportunity, even when it results in whitewashing Nazi crimes.

I barely knew anything about WW2 from school tbh. I knew about the atomic bombings, but I learnt that in Japanese class as part of practice reading material, not as part of any history class. Not American, either.

Prestoff posted...

What you said is 100% true as well, but just stating in general a lot of South East Asian vets greatly dislike the Japanese for their conquest because they were there to feel the effects.

With that said, both sides of my Vietnamese family is very anti-Chinese Communist, which plays a big role why they vote Republican because they fell for the anti-Communist propaganda by the Right that conflates socialism with communism, very similiar to why Cubans tend to vote Republican.

He has said that Vietnam has more than "a thousand years of enmity with China". The wars with Japan, France, and the US were nothing compared to that.

mazingetter posted...

He has said that Vietnam has more than "a thousand years of enmity with China". The wars with Japan, France, and the US were nothing compared to that.

It shows too, if you spend time in Vietnam. Americans are very welcome. French people slightly less so by the very old, but mostly have no problems. Japanese people are treated similarly to French people.

China is despised in a way that the other countries mentioned simply arent.

mazingetter posted...

Met an old Vietnamese veteran when I was young. He despised the Chinese much more than the Japanese and Americans.

That's because the post-Ho Vietnamese government decided to pursue petty nationalism and throw in their lot with the USSR. This is despite the fact that the Chinese provided plenty of support during the Vietnam War and hosted Ho during WW2.

Meanwhile in neighbouring Cambodia they love the Chinese but hate the Vietnamese due to petty nationalism too. They aren't too fond of the Vietnamese trying to turn the country into a puppet state after the Khmer Rouge were driven out.

_____Cait posted...

all they have time for is Hitler was bad

And going by the modern Republican Party, sometimes not even that.

Dark_Arbron posted...

going by the modern Republican Party, sometimes not even that.

i really hope they lose the elections after this upcoming year.

Fenriswolf posted...

That's because the post-Ho Vietnamese government decided to pursue petty nationalism and throw in their lot with the USSR. This is despite the fact that the Chinese provided plenty of support during the Vietnam War and hosted Ho during WW2.

Their enmity with the Chinese goes way back before that.

Maybe Chinas Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-Shek should have been tried for leaving the city unprotected?

ElGatoBravo posted...

You should read about what Japan did to the Chinese people. It's no wonder China is still very racist towards anything from Japan to this day.

Even though I'm a hardcore Chinese nationalist, I regularly call out people I know when they use derogatory terms against Japanese people. While their grievances against the LDP government in Japan is completely understandable, anti-Japanese racism is never okay.

CobraGT posted...

Maybe Chinas Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-Shek should have been tried for leaving the city unprotected?

He was a scumbag TBH. He burnt down the city of Changsha and flooded the Yellow River in futile attempts to drive out the Japanese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Changsha_fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood

IMNOTRAGED posted...

The most striking things I've learned that weren't in school curriculum is just how many nazis and Japanese imperialists avoided taking responsibility for the atrocities they took part in

I mean look at any major modern German company, and pretty much all of them were run by Nazis and using slave Labor before and during WW2. The major Japanese zaibatsu were broken up by Macarthur after the war but lots of surviving major companies like Mitsubishi were major war manufacturers.

Glob posted...

It shows too, if you spend time in Vietnam. Americans are very welcome. French people slightly less so by the very old, but mostly have no problems. Japanese people are treated similarly to French people.

China is despised in a way that the other countries mentioned simply arent.

I got the feeling there that the Vietnamese forgive the US but will never forget the war. There has been a LOT of American and Japanese factories that have been set up there in the last 20 years. China meanwhile has been at war with Vietnam off and on for like 40 years, and has been an existential threat sitting over them for thousands of years, occasionally vassalizing or conquering Vietnam.

Trumble posted...

I barely knew anything about WW2 from school tbh. I knew about the atomic bombings, but I learnt that in Japanese class as part of practice reading material, not as part of any history class. Not American, either.

New Zealand history #priorities:

-The All Blacks
- that one athlete who got an Olympic gold medal in something no other country gives a shit about
- New Zealand is the greatest country on earth PER CAPITA
- Australia is racist

sfcalimari posted...

New Zealand history #priorities:

-The All Blacks
- that one athlete who got an Olympic gold medal in something no other country gives a shit about
- New Zealand is the greatest country on earth PER CAPITA
- Australia is racist

To be fair that last one was recently reaffirmed.

sfcalimari posted...

I got the feeling there that the Vietnamese forgive the US but will never forget the war. There has been a LOT of American and Japanese factories that have been set up there in the last 20 years. China meanwhile has been at war with Vietnam off and on for like 40 years, and has been an existential threat sitting over them for thousands of years, occasionally vassalizing or conquering Vietnam.

My Vietnamese partner is travelling with me to Japan in December. Shes really excited about it.

Im pretty sure if I asked her if she wanted to go to China she would refuse.

Glob posted...

Im pretty sure if I asked her if she wanted to go to China she would refuse.

What about Taiwan or Singapore?

mazingetter posted...

What about Taiwan or Singapore?

Shes been to Singapore for work.

Does anyone know what exactly ww2 history looks like in Japanese school?

The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer is a pretty riveting first hand account.

This is one of my favorite channels on YouTube that is very comprehensive regarding WW2. I've learned a ton, and some eerie parallels with what is going on with Ukraine while watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/@WorldWarTwo

Zikten posted...

Does anyone know what exactly ww2 history looks like in Japanese school?

"Why would America do this? Couldn't have anything to do with our country attacking them first."

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6bf9b63c.jpg

sfcalimari posted...

"Why would America do this? Couldn't have anything to do with our country attacking them first."

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6bf9b63c.jpg

Only movie to make me sob like a baby. Thanks.

chaos_knight posted...

Only movie to make me sob like a baby. Thanks.

Its also based on a true story. Which i didn't know til recently

I do sympathize with the normal civilians of 1940s Japan. It wasn't their fault. But there is no way to sympathize with their government and their choices during the war.

Beevor mentions after the first nuke they warned Japan they would do it again unless they surrendered. I think they waited 3 days and got no response so they sent the second nuke. After that the emperor wanted to surrender, he recorded a message to be sent to the public about how they were to surrender and I think their was an attempted coup because other leaders did not want to surrender still. They eventually were defeated and they did end up surrendering.

sfcalimari posted...

New Zealand history #priorities:

-The All Blacks
- that one athlete who got an Olympic gold medal in something no other country gives a shit about
- New Zealand is the greatest country on earth PER CAPITA
- Australia is racist

Lmao yep, that's about right.

Zikten posted...

Its also based on a true story. Which i didn't know til recently

I do sympathize with the normal civilians of 1940s Japan. It wasn't their fault. But there is no way to sympathize with their government and their choices during the war.

the bombing of Dresden Germany was pretty terrible also. And the shit the Soviets did when they arrived

WWII was hardly as black and white as its made out to be

trivialbeing posted...

the bombing of Dresden Germany was pretty terrible also. And the shit the Soviets did when they arrived

WWII was hardly as black and white as its made out to be

'The Allies' were outright evil in numerous things many of the nations did. And not even with the aim of victory at any cost.

But we won and Germany and Japan both managed to make us look like relative saints with how beyond depraved they were.

Zikten posted...

I do sympathize with the normal civilians of 1940s Japan. It wasn't their fault.

Modern Japan would really like us to forget that their fascist imperialist death cult was integrated throughout every level of society. Nobody was allowed to openly be a pacifist or anything but a nationalist willing to die for the emperor. People were rewarded for being good subjects and most people bought into it. Nazi Germany was the same but they've done a ton of atoning since the war. Japan just wants to pretend it never happened, and as a nation for them the worst thing about the war was that they lost, not that they started it.

I'm not going to say that the civilians deserved it or that they were completely guilty and responsible for everything that happened to them, but they were literally raised from birth to revere the emperor, to support Japan's imperialist conquests, to die for the country, and to see all foreigners as their mortal enemy. It's not as simple as saying "oh well the civilians were just misled by their evil government." Average Japanese civilians voluntarily worked in wartime oil refineries and airplane factories and shipyards, and would have gladly killed as many foreign soldiers as they could using their bare hands. Anyone who was against the government or the war, even secretly, would have been turned in and executed by the secret police.

sfcalimari posted...

I got the feeling there that the Vietnamese forgive the US but will never forget the war. There has been a LOT of American and Japanese factories that have been set up there in the last 20 years. China meanwhile has been at war with Vietnam off and on for like 40 years, and has been an existential threat sitting over them for thousands of years, occasionally vassalizing or conquering Vietnam.

No one will forget the Vietnam War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtc0Nw6Ag4I

Funkydog posted...

'The Allies' were outright evil in numerous things many of the nations did. And not even with the aim of victory at any cost.

But we won and Germany and Japan both managed to make us look like relative saints with how beyond depraved they were.

The winner writes the history books.

I remember a lot of WW2 misinformation as a kid, usually from my conservative father. He said Pearl Harbour was because Japan hates our way of life, with no mention whatsoever of the US cutting off their oil beforehand. Curiously the they just hate us excuse has also been made for Islamic extremism, so its clearly a useful card to play.

Regarding the atomic bombings, theres tons of conflicting claims there too. I was told after the first one Japan taunted the US by saying they only had one of those. Other people say they have no response. Other other people say they were on the verge of surrender already and the second bombing (and even the first) was unnecessary and should have been used on military targets anyway.

The problem here is who the goddamn hell am I supposed to trust?

Dark_Arbron posted...

Regarding the atomic bombings, theres tons of conflicting claims there too. I was told after the first one Japan taunted the US by saying they only had one of those. Other people say they gave no response. Other other people say they were on the verge of surrender already and the second bombing (and even the first) was unnecessary and should have been used on military targets anyway.

The problem here is who the goddamn hell am I supposed to trust?

From my understanding - and I had to write about this in a low level university class, specifically on whether the bombings were justified - I'm not aware of Japan specifically telling the US that they believed the US didn't have another atomic bomb, but they *did* believe it. Even after Nagasaki, they believed the US wouldn't have many more - and this was correct; the US had no more at the time, could've had one more in a couple of weeks, and an average of 3 a month after that. Likewise, the fact that Japan might think that, was absolutely a factor in the US's decision to drop a second one.

Japan was certianly considering surrender at that time, but it was far from certian. I believe what really changed the course here was the Soviet Union breaking neutrality and declaring war on Japan. This happened after Hiroshima but before Nagasaki. The meeting at which the decision was made, occurred on the same day as Nagasaki, after the bombing happened but before the participants were aware of it. Hiroshima could very well have been a factor; but they would almost certianly have surrendered even if a second nuke hadn't been dropped. Whether they would've surrendered without the first one, just on the general state of their military by that point and the Soviets breaking neutrality, is likely impossible to say; let alone whether the US could possibly have known whether surrender would've occurred without it. As is whether the US could possibly have known that Nagasaki (or Kokura, as originally intended) would ultimately have no bearing on whether Japan surrendered or not.

The legitimacy of the targets, as opposed to demonstration or purely military targets, is a very different matter. However, that distinction had disappeared long before the nukes; either atomic bombing as a single event wasn't even the most destructive or fatal bombing raid against Japan in WW2 (that would be Operation Meetinghouse, a firebomb raid on Tokyo).

As for who you can ultimately trust? No one really; we can look at what's most likely to be true, but I doubt a single person alive - even if they were alive and in a position of authority at the time - knows the full truth. Even those who mean to be truthful can still be wrong.

Foppe posted...

The winner writes the history books.

Not always. Consider the prominence of concepts like the "clean wehrmacht", the superior German Army and the orientalist depiction of the Soviet military as a numerous "Asiatic horde" throwing their men's life away for ww2 or the lost cause for the American Civil War. You also have examples like Herodotos of Halikarnassos whose city was part of the Greek coalition crushed by the Persians during the Ionian revolt or Thukydides the Athenian who wrote about the "Peloponnesian War" which saw Athens defeated by Sparta.