Current Events > How would you solve the Israel / Palestine conflict?

(+) Yeah! (+)

videospirit posted...

A distinction without a difference. What does it matter what Chile thinks about who is allowed to be part of America? What does it matter what Palestinians think about who is allowed to be part of Israel? The only thing that matters to this conflict is that those Palestinians themselves are not willing to be part of Israel. What they feel about other people is irrelevant to finding a solution beyond "A joint government with both of them being in charge of holy sites is impossible"

The stated goal of Hamas - supported by a majority of the populace as per polling data - is that they want to expel the occupiers of Palestine and turn it into an Islamist state. They conveniently give their proposed borders for their version of Palestine which just so happens to be Israel-shaped. Go figure.

videospirit posted...

Except it would be a completely different kind of conflict. If, once they've been given a state of their own, they want to go to war with Israel, Israel would be completely justified in returning fire. The current conflict is a resistance movement against an apartheid state. The end goal desired by that resistance movement is hard to empathize with, but a resistance movement is completely justified.

Distinction without a difference. Israel is already justified in returning fire.

willythemailboy posted...

The stated goal of Hamas - supported by a majority of the populace as per polling data - is that they want to expel the occupiers of Palestine and turn it into an Islamist state. They conveniently give their proposed borders for their version of Palestine which just so happens to be Israel-shaped. Go figure.

As per polling data from a people living in fear of a violent extremist group.

willythemailboy posted...

Because every time someone posts this crap their "solution" to the conflict always includes policies they know full well will result in giving Hamas more weapons. Every Fucking Time. You're not fooling anyone with this shit.

*dismissive wanking gesture*

willythemailboy posted...

You keep saying this but then rule out taking any action to actually do it. I can't possibly imagine why you'd be against any action taken against terrorists.

Should America just start bombing parts of the country to snuff out domestic terrorists? Clearly you believe a chance to kill terrorists is worth 100 innocents per terrorist. You truly believe the choices are indiscriminate massacres or nothing. There's Hamas outside of Israel? Should the IDF just start nuking the world to make sure to snuff out every flame?

If Israel wasn't a genocidal apartheid state, their reaction would still be unacceptable. I take it you support everything the US did in the War on Terror and accuse all critics of being terrorists?

Go back in time and tell Ottoman Empire to not side with Austria and Germany during WW1.

Here is some polling data
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

By and large, Gazans do not share Hamass goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose other), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords. In this scenario, the state of Palestine would sit alongside the state of Israel, their borders based on the de facto boundary that existed before the 1967 Six-Day War. The level of support for this resolution has not changed much since 2021; in that survey, 58 percent of respondents in Gaza selected the two-state solution.

It is somewhat surprising how little traction alternative political arrangements had gained among Gazans before the onset of recent hostilities, given how implausible a two-state solution now seems. The survey presented two other options: an Israeli-Palestinian confederationin which both states are independent but remain deeply linked and permit the free movement of citizensand a single state for both Jews and Arabs. These garnered 10 percent and nine percent support, respectively.

Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamass October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel. A clear majority (77 percent) of those who provided this response were also supporters of Hamas, amounting to around 15 percent of the adult population. Among the remaining respondents who favored armed action, 13 percent reported no political affiliation.

willythemailboy posted...

The stated goal of Hamas - supported by a majority of the populace as per polling data - is that they want to expel the occupiers of Palestine and turn it into an Islamist state. They conveniently give their proposed borders for their version of Palestine which just so happens to be Israel-shaped. Go figure.

Distinction without a difference. Israel is already justified in returning fire.

And what is your point? If Canada suddenly put out a statement that they believe the United States should be made part of Canada, would the United States be justified in occupying and annexing Canada?

The Palestinians opinion of Israel is irrelevant. All that matters is whether they're obeying international law or not, and defending themselves from a foreign occupation is perfectly legal. Their desire to conquer said foreigners is irrelevant and hardly actionable for them without consequence. You can't use your predictions of their future course of action to justify Israel's wrongdoings.

pull out of gaza strip, build a wall and become 2 party state.

Dubman017 posted...

pull out of gaza strip, build a wall and become 2 party state.

there's no possible way a West/East Jerusalem with a wall in the middle ever works out.

willythemailboy posted...

The stated goal of Hamas - supported by a majority of the populace as per polling data - is that they want to expel the occupiers of Palestine and turn it into an Islamist state. They conveniently give their proposed borders for their version of Palestine which just so happens to be Israel-shaped. Go figure.

wrong, 40% are children and we already proved that even with that you are still wrong.. repeating lies and propaganda does not suddenly make it true.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

By and large, Gazans do not share Hamass goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose other), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords. In this scenario, the state of Palestine would sit alongside the state of Israel, their borders based on the de facto boundary that existed before the 1967 Six-Day War. The level of support for this resolution has not changed much since 2021; in that survey, 58 percent of respondents in Gaza selected the two-state solution.

It is somewhat surprising how little traction alternative political arrangements had gained among Gazans before the onset of recent hostilities, given how implausible a two-state solution now seems. The survey presented two other options: an Israeli-Palestinian confederationin which both states are independent but remain deeply linked and permit the free movement of citizensand a single state for both Jews and Arabs. These garnered 10 percent and nine percent support, respectively.

Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamass October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel. A clear majority (77 percent) of those who provided this response were also supporters of Hamas, amounting to around 15 percent of the adult population. Among the remaining respondents who favored armed action, 13 percent reported no political affiliation.
willythemailboy posted...

Distinction without a difference. Israel is already justified in returning fire.

they are most definitely not, here you go again, g iving israel free reign to commit war crimes and any other countless number of atrocities.. they are not justified, not one bit...

videospirit posted...

And what is your point? If Canada suddenly put out a statement that they believe the United States should be made part of Canada, would the United States be justified in occupying and annexing Canada?

If Canada had a history of launching rockets into the US with the intent of killing American citizens, the US would absolutely be justified in destroying the ability to manufacture and launch those rockets, including blockading any imports to Canada to prevent rocket components from getting in.

Intro2Logic posted...

Here is some polling data
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

That doesn't match the data I've seen, but if true it is indeed a cause for hope.

yeah, poll numbers out of Gaza shouldn't be taken any more seriously than poll numbers out of Russia.

ZaruenKosai posted...

they are most definitely not, here you go again, g iving israel free reign to commit war crimes and any other countless number of atrocities.. they are not justified, not one bit...

Translation: Israel should not be able to prevent October 7th from happening every other weekend.

Dubman017 posted...

pull out of gaza strip,

That happened in 2005.

Dubman017 posted...

build a wall

Started in 1994 and constantly upgraded since.

Neither of those has led to peace.

willythemailboy posted...

If Canada had a history of launching rockets into the US with the intent of killing American citizens, the US would absolutely be justified in destroying the ability to manufacture and launch those rockets, including blockading any imports to Canada to prevent rocket components from getting in.

Now say, Canada did not have a history of launching rockets into the US, they just ruffled the US feathers with some statements without action and the US invaded and occupied Canada and started settling Canadian land with american citizens and pushing Canadians farther and farther north . Would Canadians be justified launching rockets into the US to try and drive them out of Canada for their unprovoked invasion?

Because that's the situation you've got in Israel/Palestine

willythemailboy posted...

Translation: Israel should not be able to prevent October 7th from happening every other weekend.

So this is a confirmation that you believe any and all war crimes are justified if the other side hit you first.

I wouldn't, and any attempt I made would probably just make things even worse.

videospirit posted...

Now say, Canada did not have a history of launching rockets into the US, they just ruffled the US feathers with some statements without action and the US invaded and occupied Canada and started settling Canadian land with american citizens and pushing Canadians farther and farther north . Would Canadians be justified launching rockets into the US to try and drive them out of Canada for their unprovoked invasion?

Because that's the situation you've got in Israel/Palestine

...you're kinda leaving out the parts where Canada got 4 other countries to go to war with the US

thronedfire2 posted...

yeah, poll numbers out of Gaza shouldn't be taken any more seriously than poll numbers out of Russia.

That doesn't make sense in this instance because the poll numbers are opposed to the current regime there, rather than in favor of it. Poll numbers that showed widespread opposition to Putin would be notable, while ones showing widespread support might not be.

thronedfire2 posted...

yeah, poll numbers out of Gaza shouldn't be taken any more seriously than poll numbers out of Russia.

Uh... why would Hamas want the world to think no one supports their plans? Does Russia put out polls that say everyone hates Putin and wants him gone?

I dunno I guess I misunderstood something >_>

that's entirely possible

thronedfire2 posted...

...you're kinda leaving out the parts where Canada got 4 other countries to go to war with the US

You say that like you believe the Palestinians convinced 4 countries to invade and occupy Palestine.

videospirit posted...

Now say, Canada did not have a history of launching rockets into the US, they just ruffled the US feathers with some statements without action and the US invaded and occupied Canada and started settling Canadian land with american citizens and pushing Canadians farther and farther north . Would Canadians be justified launching rockets into the US to try and drive them out of Canada for their unprovoked invasion?

Because that's the situation you've got in Israel/Palestine

You have a very interesting take on history. It's not at all reflective of reality but it's definitely an interesting head canon.

In reality, Arab and Jewish Palestinians have been fighting since before Israel was officially a country.

legendary_zell posted...

That doesn't make sense in this instance because the poll numbers are opposed to the current regime there, rather than in favor of it. Poll numbers that showed widespread opposition to Putin would be notable, while ones showing widespread support might not be.

Neither of them are notable. Polling during regular wartime is pointless already, let alone all the shit Palestinians have been through for decades.

willythemailboy posted...

Translation: Israel should not be able to prevent October 7th from happening every other weekend.

Huh? Saying that Israel is not justified in breaking the rules of war, and responding to terrorism with exponentially proporitoned war crimes does not translate into that unless you're delusional.

Man you really are aggressive with twisting peoples words arent you the translation isn't even rational, but i should not have expected rational thinking from you.

it's quite obvious you have simply don't care about the reality of the situation, and only care about your own personal demons.

firstly, do you have proof that October 7th is hapepning on a daily or weekly occurence? No , than stop creating false scenarios based off an isolated incident that was most definitely a tragedy causued by the terrorist act of Hamas, but this fear of the future does not give Israel the right to ignore human decency , and especially at such an extreme level.

Blowing up entire neighborhoods, slaughtering thousands , and wounding tens of thousands more (SO FAR) , is not a proportional response to October 7th, unless you are a vindicitive blood thirsty pirate. Treating Palestinians like rotting animals that need to be exterminated for the greater good. Unforgiveable, unacceptable.

willythemailboy posted...

You have a very interesting take on history. It's not at all reflective of reality but it's definitely an interesting head canon.

In reality, Arab and Jewish Palestinians have been fighting since before Israel was officially a country.

alright so what? lots of countries have tense relations. that is no reason to allow any country or population to be wiped out and or extinguished by another.
Right now, in reality, no longer the past which we can not change without a time travelling machine.

Palestine is currently on the brink of collapse, they are the ones suffering the most... right now they are the ones being oppressed by Israel.

We need to resolve the current living situation, not try to figure out what might happen 50 years from now and how to punish the current palestinians for something they may or may not do years from now.

The only solution that fails absolutely is the one you absolutely refuse to ever try.

If you are expecting things to go perfectly they wont, that is the purpose of a Neutral 3rd party to try and help build trust between the two..
There will be mistakes, there will be relapses, it doesn't mean we dont try at all. You are right, in the end it might end up failing anyways, but I think it's better to try and fail 50 times , than to simply not try at all.

I think the reason why you and the IDF actually dont want this is because you know Israel is the one that will misbehave and continuously ravage the palestinians... You know they are unable to keep ther holsters in their pants so of course how can a solution that you know Israel will fumble as they have done so many times in the past be acceptable to Israel. It will be Israel that wreaks havoc and than the 3rd party will have no choice but to shine light on it to the world. Israel can not , and will not ever allow this because than the world will see them for the true monsters that they are. (IDF/Netanyu, Pro-Genocide of Palestinians.)

ZaruenKosai posted...

Man you really are aggressive with twisting peoples words arent you the translation isn't even rational, but i should not have expected rational thinking from you.

it's quite obvious you have simply don't care about the reality of the situation, and only care about your own personal demons.

That's pretty much Willy's gimmick

videospirit posted...

You say that like you believe the Palestinians convinced 4 countries to invade and occupy Palestine.

alright maybe they didn't need much convincing, but that's the reality of going to war and losing. the winning side usually gains territory.

what do you think would have happened to Israel if they had lost?

I doubt it would exist right now. Palestine? divided up by the 4 that won the war, and still constantly fought over

Paragon21XX posted...

Pre-1967 borders were Egypt controlling Gaza and Jordan controlling the West Bank. Neither country wants those lands back.

The land would go to the PLO under the parameters of what I laid out. Egypt and Jordan wouldn't gain anything. Pre-1967 is just a term for geography, not political administration.

I'm discussing all this in good faith and out of a genuine interest in foreign policy btw so not trying to sound like a dick in any part of my response.

videospirit posted...

Yeah, which is why Israel should not be in charge of people who hate them and think they should not exist. The Palestinians who refuse to be part of Israel need to be given their own state, and Israel is not qualified to determine what their borders will be unilaterally. The Palestinians also refuse to accept any kind of deal.

So the only solution is to have the international community force arbitration on them and have the international community decide what the borders are unilaterally.

Peace that is forced upon people never lasts. There is no chance in hell that this has a chance to solve the problem. You still have two peoples that live side by side that hate each other. Good luck with that.

All you are asking for is dead peace keeping troops and more terrorism.

willythemailboy posted...

You have a very interesting take on history. It's not at all reflective of reality but it's definitely an interesting head canon.

In reality, Arab and Jewish Palestinians have been fighting since before Israel was officially a country.

Certainly weren't firing rockets at Israelis to start with. There was a civil war in the former protectorate of Palestine after the British pulled out and put in an anarchy. The Israelis came out the more advantageous of the two factions, than the Israelis occupied the rest of the former protectorate of Palestine in a later war, and have continued to occupy that land ever since. There was no formal acknowledgement of a state of Israel. Israel arguably doesn't even have a single piece of de jure territory. The Palestinians definitely didn't start the Israeli occupation.

So until that initial oversight is corrected, trying to solve the rest of the conflict is pointless, because we can't treat it as two belligerent states in conflict with each other until 2 states exist.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Peace that is forced upon people never lasts. There is no chance in hell that this has a chance to solve the problem. You still have two peoples that live side by side that hate each other. Good luck with that.

All you are asking for is dead peace keeping troops and more terrorism.

So you want a peace that involves no one hating each other, and you think the trading of indiscriminate massacres will achieve that?

hockeybub89 posted...

So you want a peace that involves no one hating each other, and you think the trading of indiscriminate massacres will achieve that?

I never said that. I would rather a peace that exists where at the very least both sides recognize the right of the other to exist, and go from there.

But one side is making that difficult.

He just wants Palestinians to die quietly. Put your guns down and dont give us a hard time while we ethnically cleanse/apartheid you people. We would hate to be the victims and then have to cut off water, electricity, and any food/medical entry to your concentration camp.

The level of delusion is not real, because they know theyre full of shit.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

I never said that. I would rather a peace that exists where at the very least both sides recognize the right of the other to exist, and go from there.

But one side is making that difficult.

Yes Israel,

they refuse a 2 state solution because they know they will be the ones to misbehave, and with a 3rd Party intermediary, they will be unable to hide it from the world.
If their atrocities (IDF/Netanyu) are shined for all the world to see, they will no longer be able to deny that they are the ones that kept breaking the peace.

ZaruenKosai posted...

Man you really are aggressive with twisting peoples words

I'm just reading through your bullshit. You can't seem to name one single thing Israel should be allowed to do to prevent another attack from occurring. Your goal is obvious.

ZaruenKosai posted...

firstly, do you have proof that October 7th is hapepning on a daily or weekly occurence?

You sure seem willing to bet thousands of Israeli lives that it wouldn't if Hamas had the capability. Wait, you're willing to GIVE Hamas that capability in order to find out, aren't you?

ZaruenKosai posted...

Treating Palestinians like rotting animals that need to be exterminated for the greater good.

If Israel were trying to exterminate the Palestinians they're shockingly inept at it. Oh wait, only people of a certain anti-Israel persuasion are delusional enough to think that.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

That's pretty much Willy's gimmick

That's rich coming from a guy who thinks

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Obviously, given every action Israel has taken is a war crime.

No doubt you think their mere existence is a war crime as well.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Peace that is forced upon people never lasts. There is no chance in hell that this has a chance to solve the problem. You still have two peoples that live side by side that hate each other. Good luck with that.

All you are asking for is dead peace keeping troops and more terrorism.

Hard to call neighboring countries "side by side". And while I seriously doubt it ends tensions in the area, it at least improves the situation to the point there are actually sides that can negotiate a peace and there are international laws that can be used as a guideline to structure said peace. Currently Israel only exists on paper. It has no legal claim to any territory, same with Palestine only it's even less of a state than Israel. These people hate each other too much to resolve this willingly, so a resolution needs to be forced. At that point defying that resolution is defying international law and we know how to handle that defiance. If Palestine wants to be a rogue state once they become a state they can be treated like a rogue state. Even a second North Korea would be an improvement over Israeli occupied former protectorate of Palestine.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/8/6/AAfd4kAAE-hu.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/8/7/AAfd4kAAE-hv.png

videospirit posted...

Hard to call neighboring countries "side by side". And while I seriously doubt it ends tensions in the area, it at least improves the situation to the point there are actually sides that can negotiate a peace and there are international laws that can be used as a guideline to structure said peace. Currently Israel only exists on paper. It has no legal claim to any territory, same with Palestine only it's even less of a state than Israel. These people hate each other too much to resolve this willingly, so a resolution needs to be forced. At that point defying that resolution is defying international law and we know how to handle that defiance. If Palestine wants to be a rogue state once they become a state they can be treated like a rogue state. Even a second North Korea would be an improvement over Israeli occupied former protectorate of Palestine.

Theres more sensibility here than the garbage Im getting from some others, so Id first like to thank you for that. Its refreshing.

I would like to counter with a couple of points. If we are going to get bogged down into particulars, technically no one has a legal claim to their own land. International recognition is a convenient lie created after World War II where basically the world decided that mankind had seen enough imperialism. So its like that famous line in Kingdom of Heaven. No one has claim, all have claim.

I would also like to point out that international law only exists when the P5 of the UN Security Council wants it to. There are literally hundreds of examples of situations where if international law were enforced consistently by the UN without a respect to national sovereignty that leaders of major countries would be prosecuted by the ICJ for war crimes, including every US President since the formation of the UN.

So I still think its reeks of hypocrisy that any of the P5 think they are in any position to impose a peace deal on anyone. The fact that Hamas is leaning on Russia and China for support while Israel is hiding behind the US is proof of that.

CyrusV posted...

Two states based on 1967 borders

Just to be clear, this is actually the cause of the conflict in the first place. The partition of Palestine is the root cause of the conflict. Palestinians never wanted it, were never going to tolerate it, and never will. And honestly, even though it is petty and selfish, they're right. Why should Palestine be split?? The only reason why it happened is because of the British and the UN, because they thought it'd be the perfect solution for the Jewish people. And hey, it could be. But not the way it was done, and much less the way it's continued to been carried out since. In their defense the entire world had little to no idea of the magnitude of the conflict it would lead to. And again a lot of the policies of Israel since haven't helped. Because they have their own agenda. And yes, obviously the Palestinian response hasn't either.

Intro2Logic posted...

Here is some polling data
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

I'm telling you, yes it sounds great on paper, and it IS the logical solution. But this is not a logical problem with logical people.
A two state solution is a trap. At best a temporary band aid. We've been here before, we've been here for 3/4 of a century. Both sides are being hypocritical when they say they accept it. We already basically have a two state solution, but neither side respects it. Because that's not what they want. As soon as one side is ready to offer two states, it means the other side won't accept it, because they've got the upper hand. It's like a see saw. I mean, I'm sure that the regular citizens wouldn't have a problem with it, if it meant peace. But they've never been the problem anyways. The governments are the problem. The higher interests are the problem. The wackos are the problem.

paerarru posted...

The partition of Palestine is the root cause of the conflict. Palestinians never wanted it, were never going to tolerate it, and never will. And honestly, even though it is petty and selfish, they're right. Why should Palestine be split?? The only reason why it happened is because of the British and the UN, because they thought it'd be the perfect solution for the Jewish people.

Yeah and Im not sure how to process that entirely. I mean wasnt that entire area under the Ottomans?

Historically anyway, I dont think anyone who was occupying conquered land got to decide what their fate would be. Their fate was pretty much up to the mercy of the (edit: conquerers). We look to the United Nations to ideally be the arbiters in these kinds of affairs in modern times, but theyve consistently shown an inability to do so, unfortunately.

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Yeah and Im not sure how to process that entirely. I mean wasnt that entire area under the Ottomans?

Historically anyway, I dont think anyone who was occupying conquered land got to decide what their fate would be. Their fate was pretty much up to the mercy of the (edit: conquerers). We look to the United Nations to ideally be the arbiters in these kinds of affairs in modern times, but theyve consistently shown an inability to do so, unfortunately.

True, the land was historically under Turkish rule before the British took over. But the majority of the people were Arabs. Several points can be made here. On the one hand, under the Turks (incidentally Muslims), Arabs and Jews lived together. On the other hand, Jews were second class citizens, as it tends to happen in Muslim nations (and as it tends to happen for Jewish people). And as soon as the Jews started immigrating, the Arabs were opposed. So yeah, there was a need for change, for a different model.

If you try to see the conflict logically, the Palestinians start looking like real idiots. Because the initial partition was much more "generous" to Palestinians than anything close to what they'd get today. In fact in the very beginning the Jews were ready to agree to an even smaller portion than that. But they were growing, and by 1948, when the Mandate ended, they were already a third of the population.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

I would like to counter with a couple of points. If we are going to get bogged down into particulars, technically no one has a legal claim to their own land. International recognition is a convenient lie created after World War II where basically the world decided that mankind had seen enough imperialism. So its like that famous line in Kingdom of Heaven. No one has claim, all have claim.

That's true of any law. But while the law isn't always enforced, when legal action is taken against someone it's in line with the law more often than not. That "convenient lie" is convenient indeed as well. It controls the narrative, greatly reduces conflict. Scares countries into doing jank stuff like regime change instead of outright trying to annex other countries into themselves like they used to. This "Convienient lie" has real power, even if only because we give it that power ourselves.

I would also like to point out that international law only exists when the P5 of the UN Security Council wants it to. There are literally hundreds of examples of situations where if international law were enforced consistently by the UN without a respect to national sovereignty that leaders of major countries would be prosecuted by the ICJ for war crimes, including every US President since the formation of the UN.

If Israel came up to the UN and said "This Palestine business is a mess. Please arbitrate what Israel's borders are so we can settle the issue. We don't care what the Arabs do with their land or how many states they carve out of it." The UN would oblige. Palestine's approval doesn't even matter. The simple truth is, Israel wants this conflict to continue, because they're likely to lose land if they ever go that route.

So I still think its reeks of hypocrisy that any of the P5 think they are in any position to impose a peace deal on anyone. The fact that Hamas is leaning on Russia and China for support while Israel is hiding behind the US is proof of that.

If the P5 worked together the issue would be solved even without Israel's cooperation, but that's no solution because you can't magically make the P5 work together for world peace and I can't bring myself to blame them. Israel on the other hand bears full responsibility for their refusal to seek arbitration. The Palestinians aren't in any position to do so, and aren't currently occupying any territory that they'd need to cede if an arbitration did happen regardless.

Ironically when it was under Ottoman control there was relative peace in the area. I dont know the situation post Ottoman control but it was 67 the shit hit the fan. The Arabs didnt sign off on the partitioning but the UN / LON went ahead anyway. I dont think it should be undone now but no more than the US being giving back to the Natives or Australia to the aborigines.

paerarru posted...

Just to be clear, this is actually the cause of the conflict in the first place. The partition of Palestine is the root cause of the conflict.

Absolutely true but trying to put that genie back in the bottle now with Israel a fully established state is impossible without igniting an existentialist war with a nuclear power. Two-state solution has its own massive problems but it's an attempt at compromise with the existing situation. Every other option is worse.

Both sides badly need fresh new leadership, which is easier said than done. Netanyahu and Hammas are war criminals and Abbas is inept.

Gaza should come under control of a third party like Saudi Arabia until a proper two state solution can be agreed. Gaza also needs fresh elections. Majority of current civilians werent even alive when Gaza last help elections in the mid 2000s.

punkfanalways posted...

Ironically when it was under Ottoman control there was relative peace in the area. I dont know the situation post Ottoman control but it was 67 the shit hit the fan. The Arabs didnt sign off on the partitioning but the UN / LON went ahead anyway. I dont think it should be undone now but no more than the US being giving back to the Natives or Australia to the aborigines.

Eh, I might even agree except neither Natives nor Aborigines are Muslim fanatics.

By the way, how about what immigrants occupy "being giving back" to Americans or Australians?

Pow_Pow_Punishment posted...

Absolutely true but trying to put that genie back in the bottle now with Israel a fully established state is impossible without igniting an existentialist war with a nuclear power. Two-state solution has its own massive problems but it's an attempt at compromise with the existing situation. Every other option is worse.

Both sides badly need fresh new leadership, which is easier said than done. Netanyahu and Hammas are war criminals and Abbas is inept.

Full agree on the leadership. Again, the leadership is really the problem. And the inhuman policies the leadership of both sides is used to implementing.

I don't think it's impossible. It's difficult, and it involves the most changes in mentality, in attitude, in world view. But it's the real solution, it's the human solution, it's the natural solution people want, or should want even, without any bullcrap from anybody. The problem is, like I said, nobody really wants it bad enough, nobody really cares. But yeah, much less the leadership.

Menachem Begin, founder of Likud, 6th Israeli PM:

"The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognised. The signature by institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever."

Two state, schmoo schmate. You can't have peace if you see your neighbor as your ultimate, mortal enemy, a thief occupying the house of your brother. You have to start by seeing your neighbor as your friend, or at least just your freaking neighbor. Who should have a say on what happens in the neighborhood, and equal rights. You can have your full human dignity, as individuals AND as a nation. But you can't just take it by force, by trampling over the dignity of other people.

paerarru posted...

Full agree on the leadership. Again, the leadership is really the problem. And the inhuman policies the leadership of both sides is used to implementing.

I don't think it's impossible. It's difficult, and it involves the most changes in mentality, in attitude, in world view. But it's the real solution, it's the human solution, it's the natural solution people want, or should want even, without any bullcrap from anybody. The problem is, like I said, nobody really wants it bad enough, nobody really cares. But yeah, much less the leadership.

Muslims lived in Ottoman controlled Palestine as well you know. In fact that era was highly regarded as a cultural renascence for Jews in the area. Muslims at the time actually protected Jews.

If your point is to argue that Hamas are a terrorist organisation I completely agree with you.

Meh that was meant to be a response to your previous post.