Current Events > How would you solve the Israel / Palestine conflict?

(+) Yeah! (+)

You realize there's no reason to give a fuck what a genocidal apartheid state agrees to, right? Force it on them. Total embargo until they comply.

Theres no reason to give a fuck what any of us have to say, you in particular.

For one thing - you dont know what the word genocide means.

But it reeks of hypocrisy that a country already guilty of both given its history with the native Americans would seek to lecture another on how it deals with minorities.

That's your fucking argument? America has done bad shit, so no one from that country has a right to correctly call out yours?

Israel is genociding Palestinians because your government hates them and wants them dead. And counties supporting Israeli governemnt is as big a joke as anyone supporting Hamas.

If anything, I should know what genocide is since America committed once against the native Americans, attempted one against the Japanese Americans, and is working on one against the LGBTQ community. And I believe we helped defeat a country that had a pretty well-known genocide against Jews. A certain country was even created in the aftermath of that war.

That's your fucking argument? America has done bad shit, so no one from that country has a right to correctly call out yours?

Israel is genociding Palestinians because your government hates them and wants them dead. And counties supporting Israeli governemnt is as big a joke as anyone supporting Hamas.

If anything, I should know what genocide is since America committed once against the native Americans, attempted one against the Japanese Americans, and is working on one against the LGBTQ community. And I believe we helped defeat a country that had a pretty well-known genocide against Jews. A certain country was even created in the aftermath of that war.

The term genocide usually means that the population of victims of said genocide goes down, not up. What is happening to the Palestinians does not met the criteria of the term Genocide.

Is it awful? Absolutely. Disproportionate at this point? Probably. Justified - debatable at best and only the most die hard Zionists at this point. At this point, its clear that the seige of Gaza constitutes a war crime. (Although I believe that all wars are crimes in some way.) I mean Hamas has kidnapped children and its nice to know someone is actually willing to do something to get them back, but given the body count on the other side, Ill concede the point.

But look at the definition of the term genocide. Israel is guilty of the first two elements - killing members of the group and causing harm to members of the group, but look at the fourth - imposing measures designed to prevent the births of the group. The birthrate for Palestinians refutes the accusation of genocide.

https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide

Im just saying - a reasonable starting point to negotiating a peace agreement is to make sure we get our indictments right. Part of the reason why neither side will even consider talking to each other is that demonization that I am referring to. Israel has absolutely no reason to negotiate with terrorists, and unfortunately is now faced with a near impossible choice: commit to a ground offensive under the so called rules of war which undoubtedly results in the lives of god knows how many soldiers, do what its doing now, or do absolutely nothing and allow Hamas to simply get away with its pogrom while maintaining a security concern it has no chance of resolving without considering the other two options.

Correct me if Im wrong, the US faced a similar choice in the Summer of 1945. And we went nuclear with it. Not suggesting thats what Israel needs to do in Gaza in anyway, but what army commander is going to send his or her troops into certain death if they dont have to?

At this point, I completely convinced that hockeybub is just a batshit insane anti-Semite that's willing to justify any killing that Hamas does. Probably would sing praises if a bunch of temples were destroyed across the US and EU while calling for the execution anyone who even looks at a mosque funny

Wtf are you smoking? The US didn't try to genocide the Japanese lol Don't spreading both hate and lies. The Imperial Japanese military refused to surrender, basically deciding that the only way the war would end for them was either they beat the US or get of all Japan wiped off the face of the earth. The camps that the Japanese-Americans was out of paranoia, while wrong on every level possible, also understandable in some strange way. And I bet that you didn't know this, but, uh...The US government also drafted these same people you say that were being killed in some purge into the military. Look up the Purple Heart Battalion, or the 442nd CRT, these men were major ass kickers in Europe. So either stfu or admit that you're stupidly spouting off hateful shit, spreading lies, and trying to justify Hamas' goal of killing every last Jewish man, woman, and child

2-state solution with pre-1967 borders and expand the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank to Gaza (they're inept and badly need fresh leadership but it's something to start with). No more illegal settlements. Hamas is not allowed to govern anymore. Neither should Netanyahu be for that matter.

At this point, I completely convinced that hockeybub is just a batshit insane anti-Semite that's willing to justify any killing that Hamas does. Probably would sing praises if a bunch of temples were destroyed across the US and EU while calling for the execution anyone who even looks at a mosque funny

The US also drafted black people despite Jim Crow still being the law of the South at the time. Drafting people to fight in the military doesn't mean you value them as people. America was the clear good guy in the WW2 and they still committed war crimes and unspeakable horrors.

Israel is far less justified. This conflict is like Axis powers fighting each other. I'm not going to be called a terror sympathizer and antisemite because I refuse to pick sides in a battle of villains.

The US also drafted black people despite Jim Crow still being the law of the South at the time. Drafting people to fight in the military doesn't mean you value them as people. America was the clear good guy in the WW2 and they still committed war crimes and unspeakable horrors.

Israel is far less justified. This conflict is like Axis powers fighting each other. I'm not going to be called a terror sympathizer and antisemite because I refuse to pick sides in a battle of villains.

Precisely 0 people on this board are in any sense qualified to solve this problem.

You may want to back that one up with facts. One of the things you are dealing with on the Jewish side is this the tsunami of misinformation circulating on social media designed to demonize Israel. At a certain point, weve gotten accused of so many imaginary crimes or accused of things that we actually didnt do, that its almost impossible that to take anything anyone says negative about us seriously.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Terrorists come into your kids house, shoot them, and kidnap your toddler grandkids. You hear the whole thing on the phone.

What expectations do you have from your government regarding how far they should go to get your grandkids back? Where do you draw the line and say no, my family isnt worth that?

Its a question Israelis and Jews are wrestling with right now. And its not hypothetical.

The list of America's war crimes in WW2 is much fucking shorter than you actually think. Last time I checked, the US wasn't killing medics and shooting parachuting pilots in WW2. Care to guess who did? Japan and Russia. Japan also killed anyone who surrendered, kidnapped women and turned into sex slaves, performed gruesome and horrific experiments on people, and denies that these things even happened.
Hard doubt

I literally said America was the good guys. The implication there would be that they weren't as bad as Japan or Germany. Man, you really have a problem with nuance. Gonna say I would have cheered the Axis Powers to win WW2?

I'd draw the line at the first innocent death tbh

And again, I'm not just talking the last few weeks. You really gonna sit here and say all the negative crap known about Israel for years is fake news? You see negative reports on Israel and get defensive. I see negative reports on America and go "Wow if only they knew it's even worse."

Youre not wrong. But who is?

At this point, I completely convinced that hockeybub is just a batshit insane anti-Semite that's willing to justify any killing that Hamas does. Probably would sing praises if a bunch of temples were destroyed across the US and EU while calling for the execution anyone who even looks at a mosque funny

I wouldn't be surprised if you did, tbh.

The term genocide usually means that the population of victims of said genocide goes down, not up. What is happening to the Palestinians does not met the criteria of the term Genocide.

Is it awful? Absolutely. Disproportionate at this point? Probably. Justified - debatable at best and only the most die hard Zionists at this point. At this point, its clear that the seige of Gaza constitutes a war crime. (Although I believe that all wars are crimes in some way.) I mean Hamas has kidnapped children and its nice to know someone is actually willing to do something to get them back, but given the body count on the other side, Ill concede the point.

Youre out of your mind if you think thats what your reaction would be. I know what its like to see those damn rockets flying towards Tel Aviv. Someone shoots at you, your family, you want them dead. Which is probably why its a good idea that the families of military and government officials be protected by the secret service.

And if Im Israel, I dont play chicken or the egg with the history of the conflict while those assholes have someones kids in a bunker somewhere. The hell with that.

I definitely dislike Islam more than I do the country of Israel. I just don't know why people have such a hard time seeing the truth that both sides are evil. It's frustrating when people refuse to have the correct opinions.

No one here is justifying Hamas Killing

You can not sit here and say Israel has every right to seek revenge but than go on to say Palestinians have no right and should just suck it up.

Definitely not Israel.

now is that really necessary or do you just enjoy resorting to that dirty tactic, I just want you to know all it does is diminish you and reduce whatever else you have to say to nothing.

No one here is justifying Hamas Killing, it's about unerstanding the history of the conflict, if you are going to be so short-sighted, don't even bother joining the conversation next time , as you;'re obviously not mature enough to have a proper adult discussion.

you further diminish yourself when you keep on

Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, they indeed might be the right terms to use, or maybe not, it might be a bit of an over reaction or an exaggeration, but the Palestinians have most definitely been treated in humanely and kept in what is basically an open air prison.

Just because it might be a bit exaggerated , it doesn't change the fact that the palestinians are not seen as human beings and are treated as such.

Israel controls everything that goes through Gaza and keeps Palestine on the brink of collapse to force them to buy resources and supplies they stole from them at ridiculous prices, they keep them hungry, starved and poor so they can never move,

so what you are saying is that, it's alright for them to murder a bunch of palestinians, including innocents, because hamas murdered israel citizens or idf? why do you think that is acceptable?

what about living in the gaza, you think its a picnic? You dont think people in there witness their friends and family brutally killed in air strikes all the time? Are they not allowed to be angry when they see their mothers, fathers, or children die??

No one on either side should be forced to go through that. I would imagine the emotions anyone would go through because of that would be life-changing.

You can not sit here and say Israel has every right to seek revenge but than go on to say Palestinians have no right and should just suck it up.

You are picking and choosing which side is allowed to do what.

I dont think revenge is ever the right answer for anyone, but that is one of the reaosons that makes an innocent palestinian become a hostile one and possibly eventually turn to terrorism like Hamas.

Israel does not have any right to revenge, just as Palestinians do not , but I sure as hell dont think Israel has every right ravage and destroy Palestine while the Palestinians are just supposed to bend over and say thank you.

Palestinians have a right to defend themselves if the IDF comes and tries to push them out of their homes and or kill them, they do not have the right to commit terroists acts and./or murder civilians. That is abhorrent no matter what.

Israel is not innocent and has not conducted themselves professionally throughout this conflict,, and will be called out for their atrocities and war crimes.

Because most of the time they are not having a conversation in good faith, and are either simply trying to provoke you to anger and/or make you look like the bad guy in front of others so as to garner sympathy. Same reason the accusations like anti-semite and hamas supporter are used to discredit any negative criticism anyone has towards Israel. Even if it is being run by a fascist government and far right extremist Netanyu.

They have no problem with Israel committing the same war crimes for the same exact reasons as Hamas, but its okay because it's Israel doing it. They can ignore all of Israels atrocities in the name of righteousness. But If a palestinian looks the wrong way, they must be anti-semites commiting treason looking to join hamas.

Dead Palestinian Children, "Collateral Damage, Hamas Fault, "
Dead Israel Children, " IDF should wipe them all out, it is justified. They will all become Hamas!"

At this point, it's no use to even try and converse with them in good faith, you will get no where with them, especially the one that can't keep the soap out of their mouth and continues to try and discredit you with their blind accusations

Someone shoots at you, your family, you want them dead

Youre out of your mind if you think thats what your reaction would be. I know what its like to see those damn rockets flying towards Tel Aviv. Someone shoots at you, your family, you want them dead. Which is probably why its a good idea that the families of military and government officials be protected by the secret service.

And if Im Israel, I dont play chicken or the egg with the history of the conflict while those assholes have someones kids in a bunker somewhere. The hell with that.

Also, someone shoots at you, they go on trial. Even American cops don't raze their neighborhood.

That says a lot about how good of a person you aren't.

Someone shoots at me or my family my only thought is survival. Not retribution against the shooter.

Do your odds of survival go up or down if you allow an organization that actively calls for genocide and acts on it against you to basically operated uninterrupted on your border?

You havent been in the situation. Which is lucky for you. I do wonder what your reaction was when the US got Bin Laden though.

The US took out Bin Laden in a special raid. This analogy would work if theyd flattened half the neighbourhood to get to him.

Jesus. I hope that wording is unintentional but based on your posting history I doubt it.

We spent 10 years or so bombing the shit out of things before finding him, it wasn't an isolated operation.

How can you explain that the Israeli occupation doesnt have to resort to explosionsor even bullets and machine-gunsto kill? That occupation and apartheid structure and saturate the everyday life of every Palestinian? That the results are literally murderous even when no shots are fired? Cancer patients in Gaza are cut off from life-saving treatments.2 Babies whose mothers are denied passage by Israeli troops are born in the mud by the side of the road at Israeli military checkpoints. Between 2000 and 2004, at the peak of the Israeli roadblock-and-checkpoint regime in the West Bank (which has been reimposed with a vengeance), sixty-one Palestinian women gave birth this way; thirty-six of those babies died as a result.3That never constituted news in the Western world. Those werent losses to be mourned. They were, at most, statistics.

What we are not allowed to say, as Palestinians speaking to the Western media, is that all life is equally valuable. That no event takes place in a vacuum. That history didnt start on October 7, 2023, and if you place whats happening in the wider historical context of colonialism and anticolonial resistance, whats most remarkable is that anyone in 2023 should be still surprised that conditions of absolute violence, domination, suffocation, and control produce appalling violence in turn. During the Haitian revolution in the early 19th century, former slaves massacred white settler men, women, and children. During Nat Turners revolt in 1831, insurgent slaves massacred white men, women, and children. During the Indian uprising of 1857, Indian rebels massacred English men, women, and children. During the Mau Mau uprising of the 1950s, Kenyan rebels massacred settler men, women, and children. At Oran in 1962, Algerian revolutionaries massacred French men, women, and children. Why should anyone expect Palestiniansor anyone elseto be different? To point these things out is not to justify them; it is to understand them. Every single one of these massacres was the result of decades or centuries of colonial violence and oppression, a structure of violence Frantz Fanon explained decades ago in The Wretched of the Earth.

What we are not allowed to say, in other words, is that if you want the violence to stop, you must stop the conditions that produced it.

That's a yikes.

1. Create a secular state where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights
2. give Palestinians reparations for war crimes and stolen land

You cant really apply that to international conflicts though.

We spent 10 years or so bombing the shit out of things before finding him, it wasn't an isolated operation.

Were talking about kidnapped children here. Taken from their homes, their parents, and being held at gunpoint by genocidal lunatics hiding in a bunker somewhere.