LogFAQs


Current Events > rowling says she would hapilly do prison time over her bigotry

Topic List
Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
The_Apologist
10/24/23 12:12:59 AM
#201:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


The social constructionist thesis: being a man/woman just means being perceived by society as a man/woman. Do you understand so far?
... Copied to Clipboard!
Umbreon
10/24/23 12:13:01 AM
#202:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
I'm not calling a person's existence a political issue, I'm saying that the exact definition of words like "man," "woman," and "gender" have become political issues.


It's the same picture.

---
Black Lives Matter. ~DYL~ (On mobile)
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:14:31 AM
#203:


Umbreon posted...
It's the same picture.
Nah, you're putting way too much value on a label.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
#204
Post #204 was unavailable or deleted.
KitKats
10/24/23 12:22:47 AM
#205:


Umbreon posted...
Feel like calling someone's very existence a "political issue" is just a way to justify any bigotry towards them as a 'personal opinion'.
This.

Whether its intentional or not, that is very much a knock on effect here.

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:24:27 AM
#206:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This is precisely what I'm referring to when I call it a political issue, by the way.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
KitKats
10/24/23 12:25:49 AM
#207:


And its a short walk to say trans people are an ideology, transgenderism, etc.

Its harmful disinformation and not legitimate discourse

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
dj1200
10/24/23 12:26:21 AM
#208:


Weird that shed take such a strong stance on this. Who cares. Just get money

---
"It was so ridiculous and I have so many feelings about it."
-Virtual Energies
... Copied to Clipboard!
#209
Post #209 was unavailable or deleted.
KitKats
10/24/23 12:29:03 AM
#210:


dj1200 posted...
Weird that shed take such a strong stance on this. Who cares. Just get money
She got too much money and too much free time

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:30:48 AM
#211:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Sure seems like a bunch of questions that get different answers from different people. Kinda feels like a subject with lots of different perspectives and opinions, the answers to which will inform how people feel about certain policy decisions and candidates.

Those are questions that have a high impact on political viewpoints.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
action52
10/24/23 12:32:06 AM
#212:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
Am I wrong? Am I lying when I say that both sides think they're correct?
What you're missing is that the basic view of transphobes is not something that has any basis in reality. We know enough to say definitively that one side is wrong.

There was a time when we still didn't understand transgenderism and it was debatable whether a trans woman was a woman, or just a man who was "confused" or "sick" and needed to conform to the gender she was assigned at birth. But not anymore. Medical science has proven it definitively. Trans men are not pretending to be women, they're not delusional, and we can't "fix" them so that they can be happy as their "correct" gender.

Arguing this is like arguing the Earth is flat or that you can cure COVID-19 with horse dewormer. It's wrong, end of story.

---
And who are you, my little friend? Not a spoon... not a fork... but something in between. A fpoon. What will you think of next, Germany?
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:32:08 AM
#213:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

That is your perspective, and your chosen definition for what makes a woman a woman. That's not going to be the same for everyone, hence why it ends up being such a hotly debated political issue. Someone else's definition might boil down to: "A woman is a human adult who was born with a vagina and has XX chromosomes," and whether or not that's the "correct" definition depends entirely on who you ask.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
The_Apologist
10/24/23 12:33:28 AM
#214:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't see how that differs from what I said.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


If someone is always regarded by others as a man/woman, then by definition that person is a man/woman, according to the social construct view. So (contrary to the testimony of lots of trans people) there can't be someone whose true gender differs from their socially perceived gender.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It could be something like 'having the typical socialization and formative experiences of an AFAB person'. This is a classic way of defining 'woman' in feminist philosophy. It's a second-wave, social constructionist sort of approach, and that's why it has TERFy implications when applied to trans people.
... Copied to Clipboard!
#215
Post #215 was unavailable or deleted.
KitKats
10/24/23 12:36:42 AM
#216:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
That is your perspective, and your chosen definition for what makes a woman a woman. That's not going to be the same for everyone, hence why it ends up being such a hotly debated political issue. Someone else's definition might boil down to: "A woman is a human adult who was born with a vagina and has XX chromosomes," and whether or not that's the "correct" definition depends entirely on who you ask.
That is factually incorrect, it does not entirely depend on who you ask; furthermore, definitions are descriptive, rather than prescriptive. This is the language of people being described, you (or others) as an individual do not dictate it

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:37:39 AM
#217:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

If those were issues of significant debate, then yes, they would be political issues. If there's a serious question over whether or not Arachnophobia counts as a disability, then it could have implications as to the permissibility of spider-themed decorations at a public park during Halloween.

If the pants-crappers were to demand accommodations such as public changing stations containing free pairs of fresh pants/underwear, they could leverage it into a political issue.

You keep giving examples that can absolutely be considered political issues.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:37:51 AM
#218:


KitKats posted...
it does not entirely depend on who you ask
It definitely does.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
KitKats
10/24/23 12:40:21 AM
#219:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
It definitely does.
You said whether or not its correct depends on who you ask, not that individuals believe something different

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
#220
Post #220 was unavailable or deleted.
KitKats
10/24/23 12:44:40 AM
#221:


The_Apologist posted...
It could be something like 'having the typical socialization and formative experiences of an AFAB person'. This is a classic way of defining 'woman' in feminist philosophy. It's a second-wave, social constructionist sort of approach, and that's why it has TERFy implications when applied to trans people.
AGAB are not identity labels, they are an event that happen in the past. Trans women experience socialization as trans female growing up, while a cis man experienced male socialization and trans guys experience trans male socialization. These are distinct and overlapping

just as a tall girl has overlapping socialization experiences with a short girl

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 12:44:46 AM
#222:


KitKats posted...
You said whether or not its correct depends on who you ask, not that individuals believe something different
What I actually said is:

Gobstoppers12 posted...
whether or not that's the "correct" definition depends entirely on who you ask.

The quotations carry important meaning. We're talking about people with opposing viewpoints who all believe themselves to be correct. When I say "correct" I'm referring to someone's personal belief, not what I would actually consider to be the correct opinion.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
KitKats
10/24/23 12:47:19 AM
#223:


Ah I see what you mean. Well a person who chooses to define women by their genitalia is misogynistic and reduces women to their body, defining us in a way that is not inclusive of all cis women or trans women. So there are ways to show how its wrong and harmful, and treats definitions as prescriptive when theyre meant to be descriptive

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
#224
Post #224 was unavailable or deleted.
The_Apologist
10/24/23 12:59:52 AM
#225:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Lots of people are always regarded as a man/woman. But really, it doesn't need to be 'always'; there just needs to be a general consensus. By analogy, even if there are some English speakers who don't know what a particular English word means, it still has that meaning as long as the community of speakers generally recognizes it as having that meaning. (I use this analogy because language is a classic example of a social construct.)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't agree with this definition, to be clear. But I'm willing to grant that people are generally treated in gendered ways, and that this gendered treatment underwrites a coherent distinction between 'the typical experience of being a man' and 'the typical experience of being a woman'.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't know. One option is to find some fundamental experience that's universal to all AFAB people (but not AMAB people). Another is to bite the bullet and acknowledge that there are a few outliers who are AFAB but don't count as real women.
... Copied to Clipboard!
The_Apologist
10/24/23 1:01:58 AM
#226:


KitKats posted...
Trans women experience socialization as trans female growing up

What do you mean? To be clear, 'to be socialized as' is synonymous with 'to be regarded by others as'.
... Copied to Clipboard!
#227
Post #227 was unavailable or deleted.
The_Apologist
10/24/23 1:10:59 AM
#228:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't see how. For example, I can describe myself as a teacher, and this can be a true statement about me with important implications for my identity and life experiences--but none of this reduces me to my job or diminishes me in any way.

In other words, there's an obvious difference between "You are X" and "You are only X".
... Copied to Clipboard!
#229
Post #229 was unavailable or deleted.
evilpresident
10/24/23 1:16:35 AM
#230:


Lmao, Rowling want so be oppressed so badly.

---
Nothing to report here
... Copied to Clipboard!
The_Apologist
10/24/23 1:27:35 AM
#231:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


If there were an additional clause saying "...and individual women are nothing more than these traits", then you'd be reduced. But there's no such clause.

Besides, if we go with the self-identification position, and define a woman as a person who identifies as a woman, doesn't this 'reduce' women in the same way, by your reasoning? Aren't you being 'boiled down' in that case too?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Take a different example, then. I'm lazy; I acknowledge this about myself. If someone were to describe me as a lazy person, I'd recognize the unfortunate truth of what they're saying, and I would understand that they're just pointing out a characteristic I have without reducing me to it. (If they said that I'm just a lazy person--a lazy person with no further characteristics worth remarking--then I'd think they were reducing me to my laziness.)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Do you understand that when someone gives a sexual/reproductive definition of 'woman', they aren't saying that the worth of a woman is exhausted by her sexual/reproductive potential?
... Copied to Clipboard!
#232
Post #232 was unavailable or deleted.
hockeybub89
10/24/23 1:37:59 AM
#233:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
Nah, you're putting way too much value on a label.
If only everyone was as privileged as you as to not have to worry about labels. Trans people don't have that luxury.

---
http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/NIR_Hockey.png
he/him/they/them
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 1:40:03 AM
#234:


hockeybub89 posted...
If only everyone was as privileged as you as to not have to worry about labels. Trans people don't have that luxury.
Okay.

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
hockeybub89
10/24/23 1:42:39 AM
#235:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
You know what's kinda funny about this?

I've seen that exact same phrase posted on r/The_Donald back in the day when I was a hardcore Trump supporter.
I'm not doing this gaslight questioning reality bullshit. There is a singular truth and Trump supporters don't live in that reality. 2+2=4 even if people have 75 million different beliefs of the true answer. 74,999,999 answers are wrong and they don't even deserve the illusion of respect.

---
http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/NIR_Hockey.png
he/him/they/them
... Copied to Clipboard!
The_Apologist
10/24/23 1:47:03 AM
#236:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Okay. So you don't object to the simplicity of the definition. (I thought that was your issue, since you used terms like 'reduced to' and 'boiled down'.) You just think that the definition is tainted by its history.

So what about a definition like "a woman is a person endowed with human rights, inalienable moral dignity, and full sovereignty over herself, and who also has female sexual/reproductive equipment"? That seems to be what feminists intend when they base their definition in biology.
... Copied to Clipboard!
hockeybub89
10/24/23 1:47:16 AM
#237:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
Okay.
It's true. Queer people are at risk of being eradicated, and people with zero empathy want to be enlightened centrist and go "Everyone cares too much about labels." When half the politicians are trying to legislate your existence out of public, you might give a fuck about labels. It is disgusting that there is politics and debate about this "issue". Everyone who isn't correct needs to stay silent.

---
http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/NIR_Hockey.png
he/him/they/them
... Copied to Clipboard!
#238
Post #238 was unavailable or deleted.
GrandConjuraton
10/24/23 2:02:36 AM
#239:


hockeybub89 posted...
If only everyone was as privileged as you as to not have to worry about labels. Trans people don't have that luxury.


---
Heavy weight, one more stone...
https://imgur.com/o21DN7r
... Copied to Clipboard!
The_Apologist
10/24/23 2:10:38 AM
#240:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Even if you don't have the legal right to an abortion in some context, you might still have the moral right. The definiton I gave is talking about morality, not legality.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


The definition doesn't require women to be fertile; it just requires them to have female anatomy.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


No. All that matters, as far as the biological definition is concerned, is anatomy. You might ask about intersex people, though; the definition might exclude them in some cases, but it doesn't imply that they're 'less than' a woman or a man.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Okay. I also accept trans identities. But this doesn't prevent me from acknowledging that there are coherent conceptions of gender that deny trans identities.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Gobstoppers12
10/24/23 2:28:57 AM
#241:


hockeybub89 posted...
Queer people are at risk of being eradicated
I think you might be getting a wee bit overdramatic. A few states are pushing unconstitutional laws that are being largely shot down in courts.

What would you say is putting them at risk of being eradicated? Do you think there's any chance whatsoever of every single LGBT+ individual ceasing to exist at any time in the near or distant future?

---
(He/Him)
I write Naruto Fanfiction. But I am definitely not a furry.
... Copied to Clipboard!
Umbreon
10/24/23 2:42:36 AM
#242:


User who is at no risk thinks people being targeted for genocide are "overdramatic".
Your next argument is "That's a misuse of the word genocide!"


---
Black Lives Matter. ~DYL~ (On mobile)
... Copied to Clipboard!
Funkydog
10/24/23 3:56:13 AM
#243:


Gobstoppers12 posted...
Do you think there's any chance whatsoever of every single LGBT+ individual ceasing to exist at any time in the near or distant future?
That's coming awfully close to saying other genocides didn't happen because Armenian, Jewish and Ukranian etc people still exist.

---
Let's make biscuits!
... Copied to Clipboard!
GranAures
10/24/23 5:26:58 AM
#244:


Ah. I see we got a nice "the people openly passing legislation and rhetoric to remove LGBTQ people will never remove all LGBTQ people so stop being scared."

Shame.

---
Just because I have 99% of a heart doesn't mean it can't kill me. It's tried. Twice.
My body has a dongle and my heart doesn't care. The one thing we agree on.
... Copied to Clipboard!
hockeybub89
10/24/23 7:35:07 AM
#245:


Funkydog posted...
That's coming awfully close to saying other genocides didn't happen because Armenian, Jewish and Ukranian etc people still exist.
And he only got a warn. Shame

---
http://card.psnprofiles.com/1/NIR_Hockey.png
he/him/they/them
... Copied to Clipboard!
KitKats
10/24/23 10:01:25 AM
#246:


The_Apologist posted...
Okay. So you don't object to the simplicity of the definition. (I thought that was your issue, since you used terms like 'reduced to' and 'boiled down'.) You just think that the definition is tainted by its history.

So what about a definition like "a woman is a person endowed with human rights, inalienable moral dignity, and full sovereignty over herself, and who also has female sexual/reproductive equipment"? That seems to be what feminists intend when they base their definition in biology.
Im not sure why youre carrying water for transphobia here, because when they use definitions in such a manner they are explicitly arguing for prescriptivism. The intent is to exclude some women with biological essentialism, which inherently boils it down and reduces us to a body part or function. You cant have your cake and eat it, too.

As a descriptive function, female is already included without excluding any subgroup of women and recognizes diversity in people and experiences.

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
GranAures
10/24/23 10:03:39 AM
#247:




and who also has female sexual/reproductive equipment"?
Aka "trans women need not apply?"

How about "trans women are women?" Or is that too inclusive?

---
Just because I have 99% of a heart doesn't mean it can't kill me. It's tried. Twice.
My body has a dongle and my heart doesn't care. The one thing we agree on.
... Copied to Clipboard!
KitKats
10/24/23 10:25:30 AM
#248:


One of the problems with transphobic arguments is they always start from a place of exclusion and work backwards from there, and it fails every time.

---
her/she
... Copied to Clipboard!
SaikyoStyle
10/24/23 10:27:15 AM
#249:


hockeybub89 posted...
And he only got a warn. Shame
Gob has deserved a full-on ban for almost 10 years now.

---
Taxes, death, and trouble.
Brunt/Gaila 2024. Make Ferenginar Great Again!
... Copied to Clipboard!
GrandConjuraton
10/24/23 10:30:23 AM
#250:


SaikyoStyle posted...
Gob has deserved a full-on ban for almost 10 years now.


---
Heavy weight, one more stone...
https://imgur.com/o21DN7r
... Copied to Clipboard!
Topic List
Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9