Current Events > How did they decide to Put Israel right in the middle of the Middle East?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Like I know were more than half a centuary on so its not something that will or should be undone but why the hell did they think this was a good idea in the first place?

SHRlKE posted...

Like I know were more than half a centuary on so its not something that will or should be undone but why the hell did they think this was a good idea in the first place?

Bible said that's where it was

I'm guessing the Red Sea was also a geographical reference.

SHRlKE posted...

Like I know were more than half a centuary on so its not something that will or should be undone but why the hell did they think this was a good idea in the first place?

This is an issue that has been going on for thousands of years.

This is literally more than just a half a century problem. It's why that region when it goes to war or conflicts, its often called a forever war by some.

asdf8562 posted...

This is an issue that has been going on for thousands of years.

Err.... no it hasn't. Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in that region peacefully since the end of the Crusades almost 800 years ago. The fighting today only dates back to World War 1.

The Ottoman Empire was on the losing side of this pretty big war, maybe you heard about it, WW1.

There are peoples all over the World who have lived in one area and had their borders redrawn by a more powerful country, it's not like it's unique only to Palestine.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Err.... no it hasn't. Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in that region peacefully since the end of the Crusades almost 800 years ago. The fighting today only dates back to World War 1.

The fighting today dates way farther back than just WW1 as the heart of why they are fighting in that reason is going on in the first place has to do with religion, and claim to that land. A conflict that dates thousands of years. WW1 isn't the only reason there's fighting going on there. WW1 wasn't the period they just out of no where, groups just declared specific land to be holy.

Also, while Ottoman rule saw some periods of peace, it most definitely was not hearts and rainbows there during Ottoman rule between all 3 religions. The Ottomans just had greater control in the area until WW1 carved it up.

We can blame WW1 for destabilizing an already controlled hot zone, but WW1 is by far not the only reason that area of the planet has fighting. If anything we akin it to throwing gasoline on a fire that was formerly being kept under relative control.

Because that's where it is in the old testament.

kelemvor posted...

There are peoples all over the World who have lived in one area and had their borders redrawn by a more powerful country, it's not like it's unique only to Palestine.

People of Mexican descent living in southern Texas, for example.

I remember watching something on history tube way back. It had something very specific to do with Britain and their economic interests because they were the ones who basically drew the borders.

Don't remember all the why behind it. Just that they were the who.

asdf8562 posted...

The fighting today dates way farther back than just WW1 as the reason the fighting in that reason is going on in the first place has to do with religion, and claim to that land. A conflict that dates thousands of years. WW1 isn't the only reason there's fighting going on there.

The only stuff dating to before WW1 is the rise Zionism. The cause of the current war has nothing to do with religion. It began as an illegal British colonialist land grab in the early 20th century and it persists today because of the suffering it has caused.

You simply don't muddle the borders of a country with a nationalist ethnostate, have both sides mercilessly slaughter civilians and children, and suddenly agree to drop it because they weren't religious. The fighting would still be going on no matter what the religions of Israelites and Palestinians had.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The only stuff dating to before WW1 is the rise Zionism. The cause of the current war has nothing to do with religion. It began as an illegal British colonialist land grab in the early 20th century and it persists today because of the suffering it has caused.

The only thing we can agree on is WW1 poured gasoline on a fire that was formerly being kept under relative control by the Ottomans.

Claim to "holy sites" and "land" definitely dated long before WW1. The Ottomans just had better control on keeping the fighting down. Fighting that btw wasn't gone, just kept more under control.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Err.... no it hasn't. Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in that region peacefully since the end of the Crusades almost 800 years ago. The fighting today only dates back to World War 1.

Most of the time.
Things went bad for the Jews in the 17th century when the Ottoman Empire went corrupt, Jews were openly harassed and got extra taxes. In 1660, Arabs destroyed the majority Jewish towns of Safed and Tiberias.
In 1720, Arabs destroyed the Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem and expelled all Ashkenazi Jews from Jerusalem.
During the Peasants' Revolt under Muhammad Ali of Egypt's occupation, Jews were targeted in the 1834 looting of Safed and the 1834 Hebron massacre.
Tens of thousands of Jewish immigrants started new communities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but many got kicked out when WWI started because they came from countries that were now in war with Ottoman.

Israel was a thing thousands of years ago. It's not like they arbitrarily decided one day in the 40s to put it there.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The only stuff dating to before WW1 is the rise Zionism. The cause of the current war has nothing to do with religion. It began as an illegal British colonialist land grab in the early 20th century and it persists today because of the suffering it has caused.

You simply don't muddle the borders of a country with a nationalist ethnostate, have both sides mercilessly slaughter civilians and children, and suddenly agree to drop it because they weren't religious. The fighting would still be going on no matter what the religions of Israelites and Palestinians had.

Both the league of nations AND the UN ratified the borders made after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Illegal how? When? Under what court?

Also remember everyone, the boundaries drawn included Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Yemen and Cyprus. These are the regions formed from the fall of the Ottoman empire after it collapsed. Of all of them, only the one with Jews is apparently illegal and invalid. Iraq is fine. Syria is fine. Lebanon is fine. No complaints about borders or legality. Nobody ever says shit about them. Israel? Made from the same process? Bad and wrong.

s0nicfan posted...

Both the league of nations AND the UN ratified the borders made after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Illegal how? When? Under what court?

Also remember everyone, the boundaries drawn included Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Yemen and Cyprus. These are the regions formed from the fall of the Ottoman empire after it collapsed. Of all of them, only the one with Jews is apparently illegal and invalid. Iraq is fine. Syria is fine. Lebanon is fine. No complaints about borders or legality. Nobody ever says shit about them. Israel? Made from the same process? Bad and wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussein_Correspondence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

The British agreed to divide the territory of Palestine differently, mostly in secret, on three different years to three different people, without consulting anyone, all before the Ottomans even lost. Then they didn't even keep one of those three promises. And neither the LoN or UN formerly acknowledges a country called Palestine while they do acknowledge Jordan etc. Palestine is just a territory that the world collectively decided should be used up and pissed on by the Zionists however they felt like sometime after WW2 after the British had left for good.

Just make the West Bank part of Jordan again.

Tyranthraxus posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussein_Correspondence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

The British agreed to divide the territory of Palestine differently, mostly in secret, on three different years to three different people, without consulting anyone, all before the Ottomans even lost. Then they didn't even keep one of those three promises. And neither the LoN or UN formerly acknowledges a country called Palestine while they do acknowledge Jordan etc. Palestine is just a territory that the world collectively decided should be used up and pissed on by the Zionists however they felt like sometime after WW2 after the British had left for good.

First link: nothing about the legality of Israel.
Second link: nothing about the legality of Israel.
Third link: surprise, nothing about the legality of Israel.

I'll state again: the league of nations AND the UN both ratified Israel.
So I'll ask again: Illegal how? When? Under what court?

Palestine was given the opportunity to be a state in 1967. They opted for attempted genocide instead. Don't forget that.

And still no acknowledgement that every other country formed by the same process is good and fine but this specific one isn't.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Bible said that's where it was

Basically

s0nicfan posted...

Both the league of nations AND the UN ratified the borders made after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Illegal how? When? Under what court?

Also remember everyone, the boundaries drawn included Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Yemen and Cyprus. These are the regions formed from the fall of the Ottoman empire after it collapsed. Of all of them, only the one with Jews is apparently illegal and invalid. Iraq is fine. Syria is fine. Lebanon is fine. No complaints about borders or legality. Nobody ever says shit about them. Israel? Made from the same process? Bad and wrong.

I'll tell you the same thing I told you last time. Those aren't fine either, just ask the fucking Kurds, who don't have a state are instead minorities in 5 different countries.

Almost like letting Europeans draw lines on a map without understanding the peoples or cultures was a bad idea.

s0nicfan posted...

First link: nothing about the legality of Israel.
Second link: nothing about the legality of Israel.
Third link: surprise, nothing about the legality of Israel.

Bro here legitimately saying that selling the same plot of land to three different people when they don't even own it yet is totally legal.

Holly Bibble said so.

go look up "isaac and ishmael"

Gasp Britain were the bad guy :o ? Not America? And yet in just a few decades Britain fell from being the global power, so its like they made this mess and just peace'd out?

Okay, the topic title got a good chuckle out of me, regardless of whether or not it was intended as a joke.

Questionmarktarius posted...

go look up "isaac and ishmael"

It all goes back to father issues.

I know it's a touchy subject and I'm massively ignorant so I'm trying to be as delicate as possible with this next question.

Was the land Israel is now based kinda free and up for grabs at the time? I know it was right after a world war so guessing it was abandoned at the time? I think I'm more interested in the logistics of it as much as anything. Like was there already a city and towns where Israel is today and they just moved in or is there more to it than that?

I'm aware of the early wars between Israel and the surrounding nations. But the lead up to that I know nothing about.

SHRlKE posted...

Was the land Israel is now based kinda free and up for grabs at the time? I know it was right after a world war so guessing it was abandoned at the time? I think I'm more interested in the logistics of it as much as anything. Like was there already a city and towns where Israel is today and they just moved in or is there more to it than that?

Arabs and Jews have been fighting over the area since roughly forever, and only stop when a 3rd-party (Rome, etc.) takes over.

SHRlKE posted...

Was the land Israel is now based kinda free and up for grabs at the time? I know it was right after a world war so guessing it was abandoned at the time? I think I'm more interested in the logistics of it as much as anything. Like was there already a city and towns where Israel is today and they just moved in or is there more to it than that?

It was up for grabs in the sense that the winners of wars always got to keep land, until the end of WW2, when the Allies started giving conquered land to the local population (unheard of prior). It was also mostly undeveloped, both because much of the land was poor-quality and also because much of the local Arab population was nomadic. It's an open question whether the land would have been improved as much without Israelis (including Israeli Arabs).

The West Bank (not involved in the current conflict) is also interesting, because it was granted (by the UK/UN) to local Arabs (now called Palestinians), but then conquered/annexed by Jordan, then conquered/annexed by Israel, and then Jordan eventually abandoned its claim (making peace with Israel). Obviously, nobody asked the locals what they wanted, since that's not how the world generally works,

For a very average piece of land no less. Sure it's more fertile than say, the Sahara desert, but it's really not "let's fight for millions of years over it" tier.

You know what's actually funny is that I was told Muslims were gonna make that the holy site, but because they couldn't overtake it from the jews or Christians or whoever else owned it, that they were like "fine we'll start our own holy site without hookers, and blackjack!" and that's how the mecca place came to be with all the Muslims going there every year.

So pretty funny overall.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Basically

I'll tell you the same thing I told you last time. Those aren't fine either, just ask the fucking Kurds, who don't have a state are instead minorities in 5 different countries.

Almost like letting Europeans draw lines on a map without understanding the peoples or cultures was a bad idea.

And you know what? I completely respect that opinion. Because rather than picking one country out of all of them and saying I don't like this one it shouldn't exist, you're at least applying an even standard to every country in that region. If people weren't calling for the end of israel, but instead calling for dissolving every single border in the Middle East and then letting them restructure themselves I would support that. But that's not what people are calling for.