Current Events > Epic laying off 16% of its workforce

(+) Yeah! (+)

Bloomberg article thats paywalled so heres another:

https://www.destructoid.com/epic-games-cuts-830-jobs-employee-layoffs/

Theres been so many layoffs in the last few months in the game industry, and this is probably the true death knell for sustainability of Live Service games if even THE money-printer Fortnite isnt sustainable without cutting so many jobs.

The good news (if there is any) is that cut employees get six months of their salary and health benefits, which is insane. (By that, I mean insanely generous, and hopefully gives them a ton of time to search out their next gig)

All they have to fucking do is make their UI not complete ass.

A lot of the Fall Guys team got laid off v_v

Isn't the CEO of epic, Tim Sweeny a complete tool? Like the dude is one of the biggest sociopaths and does a lot of shady things to get ahead.

The interesting thing about that is they are still hiring, and that the layoffs are more or less restructuring of jobs. Fortnite isn't the money printing machine it once was.

AAA games costs too much to make, and AAA publishers are putting all their eggs in a "live service" basket when there just isn't the demand for it.

But they're still running EGS at a loss, I take it?

Questionmarktarius posted...

AAA games costs too much to make, and AAA publishers are putting all their eggs in a "live service" basket when there just isn't the demand for it.

Fortnite cost like $5 to make

Time for a new union.

Irony posted...

Fortnite cost like $5 to make

Well the game itself yeah but how much do you think they're spending on throwing every goddamn character ever created into that shitty game

DarthAragorn posted...

Well the game itself yeah but how much do you think they're spending on throwing every goddamn character ever created into that shitty game

$20

Maybe they should stop blocking Linux gaming.

The next battle pass must be fire. You know what must be done, unleash Peter Griffin.

Whenever I see "Epic" I've been brainwashed to only think about the healthcare IT company >_>

What even is a "Live Service" game? I don't play online games so I'm guessing it's related to that.

Ubergeneral3 posted...

Isn't the CEO of epic, Tim Sweeny a complete tool? Like the dude is one of the biggest sociopaths and does a lot of shady things to get ahead.

Yeah he's a real piece of shit and a massive hypocrite.

maybe creating a good storefront should of been a higher priority than snipping games.

Smashingpmkns posted...

A lot of the Fall Guys team got laid off v_v

The problem of that sort of online-only game is that its major income stream is selling "hats", which drops off like a rock when the next online-only game becomes the new fad.

Smashingpmkns posted...

A lot of the Fall Guys team got laid off v_v

Nooooo I love that dev.

Too many free games

Fortnite is sustainable just fine.

What isn't sustainable is using Fortnite money to;
- Buy up timed exclusives and free games for a PC store no one is spending money on outside of Fortnite
- Buying up random companies like Bandcamp
- Buying a shopping mall, demolishing it and then trying to convert it into some sort of Epic campus. Which still hasn't happened
- Spending money on legal battles to try and force Google and Apple to give up their 30% cut

What isn't sustainable is when tech bros like Tim Sweeney feel like they can force change by constantly sinking money into vanity projects instead of creating and releasing compelling products.

And it's always the employees that suffer from the hubris of their boss.

foxhound101 posted...

Whenever I see "Epic" I've been brainwashed to only think about the healthcare IT company >_>

What even is a "Live Service" game? I don't play online games so I'm guessing it's related to that.

Basically a live service game is free to play and get started, but you pay for stuff, like a season pass, cosmetics, (admittedly those two exist in a lot of regular games too) characters, inventory space, items, etc

Punished_Blinx posted...

- Spending money on legal battles to try and force Google and Apple to give up their 30% cut

While also only charging publishers on the Epic Games Store a 12% cut (0% if the game is EGS exclusive), in some desperate attempt to convince everyone that charging publishers a sizable cut is economic oppression.

Shamino posted...

Basically a live service game is free to play and get started, but you pay for stuff, like a season pass, cosmetics, (admittedly those two exist in a lot of regular games too) characters, inventory space, items, etc

Or you're dumb like Square Enix, and charge $50-70 for it upfront.

16% is a small number. They should do bigger percentage layoffs.

Autumn Season Layoff, up to 75%

foxhound101 posted...

What even is a "Live Service" game?

Basically any game exists only as long as the publisher keeps hosting servers. These games tend to have more or less constant development to push new "content" to monetize rather than operating on a pay-to-play monetization stream. Think your League Of Legends, your Fortnites, your CS:GOs and TF2's. Live Service games want you to make their games part of your daily routine, something you log in and play daily, rather than something people play recreationally. They can be characterized best as chores you play at times (daily quests, battle passes, etc).

The problem with Live Service games is that there is a HUGE overlap in their player base. Where a more traditional game model extracts its profits up front (when players buy the game or pay their monthly subscription fee for MMOs) Live Service games do not make money if people are not buying all those optional cosmetics or time saving bonuses that speed up their gameplay-chores. So what tends to happen is a cycle of Cool New Game Comes Out -> Players no life it for awhile -> Players keep playing because they're past the sunk-cost fallacy for gaming -> Shiny new game is released and probably 90% of players jump ship to start over on... -> Cool New Game Comes Out. Depending on how good the game is and how greedy the dev is this cycle could take more or less time, but typically the entire cycle plays out in just a few months these days.

So what happens is Live Service devs spend time and energy developing their Fortnite Killer, it is profitable for a bit, and they have to KEEP pouring resources into their Fortnite killer in order to keep extracting money from it. If they let off the gas their players will just jump to the next new Fortnite Killer or even go back to playing whatever their preferred Live Service game of choice is. Companies seem to finally be realizing that trying to out-compete each other in the Live Service industry is a very, very futile effort that the more companies competing there are the more each company loses in the attempt.

Even the mighty Nintendo is gonna have to think about downsizing.

Because Nintendo couldn't possibly be releasing the Switch 2 at a worse time than 2024 when the economy will be in a deep dark recession where most Americans will be reaching in their pocket and only feeling their leg as far as disposable income goes.

.

foxhound101 posted...

What even is a "Live Service" game? I don't play online games so I'm guessing it's related to that.

perpetually supported online game (think MMORPGs or similar)

the idea is to hook somebody on something (usually free) and then get them to pay much more in backend costs (subscription fee, lootbox gambling, battle passes, or other monetization schemes).

There are several problems in this, in that nobody *likes* monetization schemes like this, the games are online-only most of the time, oftentimes the games are bad, and that most people generally have, at maximum, enough inclination to play one MMO at a time and are generally disinclined to switch, which means the winners of the Live Service Game market are the people who were there first, not any attempted imitators (as evidenced by almost every non-WoW/FF MMORPG imploding spectacularly within a year of launch)

Anyhoo maybe Epic should perhaps shore up their storefront proper instead of moneyhat exclusivity shenanigans

Saxon posted...

Because Nintendo couldn't possibly be releasing the Switch 2 at a worse time than 2024 when the economy will be in a deep dark recession where most Americans will be reaching in their pocket and only feeling their leg as far as disposable income goes.

Nintendo would be smart to recycle the Game Boy Color model for Switch 2.

• Old system plays new games, but they're uglier.
• New system plays old games, and they're ambiguously prettier.
• New system plays new games, and they're great.
• There's new games the old system can't play, but they're rare at launch and increase in frequency as time goes on.

Voidgolem posted...

perpetually supported online game (think MMORPGs or similar)

the idea is to hook somebody on something (usually free) and then get them to pay much more in backend costs (subscription fee, lootbox gambling, battle passes, or other monetization schemes).

There are several problems in this, in that nobody *likes* monetization schemes like this, the games are online-only most of the time, oftentimes the games are bad, and that most people generally have, at maximum, enough inclination to play one MMO at a time and are generally disinclined to switch, which means the winners of the Live Service Game market are the people who were there first, not any attempted imitators (as evidenced by almost every non-WoW/FF MMORPG imploding spectacularly within a year of launch)

Anyhoo maybe Epic should perhaps shore up their storefront proper instead of moneyhat exclusivity shenanigans

Are MMORPGS really considered live service though? Usually you pay up front for the game and then a monthly sub to play. You have access to everything. (This excludes obviously games like The Old Republic that have gone free to play)

We're looking a second great video game crash in my opinion in 2024 with retro gaming sales taking the biggest initial and immediate hit due to the current and unsustainable prices followed closely by a current gen decline such as Switch 2, PS5, etc.

.

Shamino posted...

Are MMORPGS really considered live service though? Usually you pay up front for the game and then a monthly sub to play. You have access to everything. (This excludes obviously games like The Old Republic that have gone free to play)

Yeah, I wouldn't lump the profitable MMOs in with the Live Service trash tbh. WoW and FF14 are both still on the Pay To Play model. While you CAN play them in a limited capacity for free (free trial accounts with limited features) if you want to play the entire game you gotta pay for both the game AND a monthly subscription. It is a completely different monetization model, even if both games run cash shops for cosmetics at this point. Since they get paid up front they actually have incentive to invest money into making new, quality content since they can then sell that as an expansion which will in turn bring back subscribers.

they're under the same broad umbrella, and a lot of the more trash ones lean more heavily into microtransactions than the upfront buy-in

Voidgolem posted...

they're under the same broad umbrella, and a lot of the more trash ones lean more heavily into microtransactions than the upfront buy-in

WoW and FF14 have nothing in common with Path of Exile, aside from the fact both are exclusively hosted online

Punished_Blinx posted...

- Buying a shopping mall, demolishing it and then trying to convert it into some sort of Epic campus. Which still hasn't happened

wtf lol

sauceje posted...

wtf lol

Yep.

2021
https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/01/04/epic-games-is-converting-a-shopping-mall-into-its-new-headquarters

2022
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/real-estate-news/article260588707.html

Don't think there's been anything since then

Are we talking about abandoned malls now? I'd rather they stay than get demolished even if they just sit and rot and become nothing more than an eye sore to the community.

These are the ancient monuments to consumerism gone awry.

Let the homeless move into the abandoned malls.

Saxon posted...

Are we talking about abandoned malls now? I'd rather they stay than get demolished even if they just sit and rot and become nothing more than an eye sore to the community.

These are the ancient monuments to consumerism gone awry.

Epic spent $95 million two years ago on a dead shopping mall. That doesn't include the work of demolishing it and building their campus.

Now two years later they're in a situation where they can't cover their expenses and have to lay off nearly a thousand people.

I don't care about the mall. The point is that their ridiculous spending over the last two years have got them into this situation even though they have one of the most profitable and successful games of all time.

Tim Sweeney was just pissing away money trying to buy exclusives and free games to stop Steam instead of using that money to make his store more appealing to users.

And then the stupid court case against Apple and Google didn't help either.

Ubergeneral3 posted...

Isn't the CEO of epic, Tim Sweeny a complete tool? Like the dude is one of the biggest sociopaths and does a lot of shady things to get ahead.

True of most of the biggest companies and game studios.

Fortnite still has like 5 million daily users. Im pretty sure they are swimming in money

Punished_Blinx posted...

- Spending money on legal battles to try and force Google and Apple to give up their 30% cut

This is a legit grievance though. Imagine if Microsoft implemented a flat 30% or even 10% or even 2% fee on every transaction that took place on Windows OS. People would riot. Meanwhile career criminals on Apple's C-suite bribe lawmakers to allow it and we're just like \_()_/

DerWillZurMacht posted...

This is a legit grievance though. Imagine if Microsoft implemented a flat 30% or even 10% or even 2% fee on every transaction that took place on Windows OS. People would riot. Meanwhile career criminals on Apple's C-suite bribe lawmakers to allow it and we're just like \_()_/

I don't have to imagine it. That's what Microsoft charges on Xbox.

I do agree that walled gardens on tech should end though yes. But Epic focusing on Google, Apple and Steam while ignoring Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo isn't consistent.

Punished_Blinx posted...

I don't have to imagine it. That's what Microsoft charges on Xbox.

I do agree that walled gardens on tech should end though yes. But Epic focusing on Google, Apple and Steam while ignoring Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo isn't consistent.

Epic gets money from doing business with PS/Nintendo/MS.
Epic gets no money from Google/Apple/Steam. (since they either compete or aren't on storefront)