Current Events > Does IWC and Breitling make better watches than omega?

(+) Yeah! (+)

they are like more expensive than avg. than omegas but aren't as highly regarded by most

idk

every time i see this topic i forget it's not about root beer and then i want it to be about root beer

are there root beers with a similar name?

No

theAteam posted...

No

no to what?

Define better in this context.

reincarnator07 posted...

Define better in this context.

what really is there to define, though? do they make better watches or not? duh

It's very hard to say but I'd say all 3 brands are roughly on the same level. Breitling has different price brackets within their brand. Their models they have in their catalog which use their manufacture caliber B01 are in the upper price bracket within their brand. They reserve the B01 for Navitimers, Premiers, Chronomats, and a few more. I personally do not see IWC's chronographs as superior to Breitling's chronographs, in fact I'd say the Breitling in-house chronographs are a league above IWC despite being lower in price.

IWC has been trying to establish themselves as a premier brand above the likes of Omega and Breitling, but to be completely honest I see them as inferior. They use mainly Val Fleurier movements, which are relatively affordable movements acquired through their own group's movement manufacturer. They use Val Fleurier to make movements for Panerai and entry level Vacheron Constantins as well amongst others.

If we're talking about Breitling's entry level models, which use ETA movements, Kenissi movements, or Sellita movements, I'd say IWC is on par or possibly slightly above in terms of quality, finishing etc. But they are priced accordingly, in fact, IWC's watches are prices well into the 5 digits. Some of their 8 day power reserve big pilots (46mm diameter) are sold for around what a Rolex Daytona costs at retail, which I'm sorry if you like IWC - it's a shameless ripoff.

Onto the subject of Omega. Omega is a fantastic value for money brand, but their prices have been creeping up since the pandemic. Their Speedmaster Professionals have seen 3 price increases ever since they updated it with the new 3861 movement. Luckily the 3861 was a very worthy upgrade:

-Brand new anti magnetic movement
-Coaxial escapement
-Superior bracelet which got a quick adjustment clasp system introduced in January this year
-Slightly more refined case design
-Higher quality dial
-Better finishing on the movement

These are reasons you won't hear me complaining about Omega's price increase from 2021. The further price increases since 2021, while annoying are still within a range where I don't see how anyone can call them greedy. This is unlike IWC and many other brands within Richemont - where humungous prince increases have happened despite not increasing the quality or even sometims DECREASING the quality! I'm looking at you Panerai!!

So all in all. I think in Breitling's case, it really matters which models we're looking at. If we're looking at models with the B01 movement, I see those Breitlings on the level of Omega watches. IWC on the other hand, I see them as inferior to both brands despite being more expensive! In the end, quality aside, you should get what you want. If you just like the look of the IWC, then that's the watch for you. All I can speak about is the value for money for what you actually get. Omega on the other hand compared to Breitling has a way more consistent quality in terms of case and movement finishing, dial quality, packaging, bracelet, clasp, reliability etc. All of their watches (save for a few insane pieces with productions of less than 20 pieces a year) have a very similar level of quality with price differences due to complications rather than using lesser quality / non in house movements for certain models like the way Breitling does it. On this subject btw. I have it on a good source that Breitling will soon stop using non in house movements and will (finally) develop non chronograph manufacture calibers instead of purchasing from different movement manufacturers like they've been doing since decades.

not gonna lie kinda curious what the differences between the movements are. i can kinda picture what you mean when you say 'better finishing' like shit is just snappy.

Fluttershy posted...

not gonna lie kinda curious what the differences between the movements are. i can kinda picture what you mean when you say 'better finishing' like shit is just snappy.

Well basically, ETA and Sellita are so similar that it's extremely hard to tell them apart. This is because ETA, who designed, developed, patented and created their movements lost their patents after X amount of years, and were therewith not allowed to call these movements their own anymore. Sellita, another Swiss movement manufacturer essentially copied these movements and are now selling them to all kinds of watch companies. The Swatch Group chairman Nick Hayek Jr. has stated numerous times that he intends to stop supplying other watch companies with the Swatch Group's ETA movements which made companies like Sellita grow incredibly fast inside the last decade.

The movements are practically indiscernible because you can order the same movements with different grades of finishing. A time only ETA 2824 and Sellita's SW200 are the same movement. But if you see an ETA 2824 with worse finishing than a SW200, that doesn't mean Sellita's is better (and vice versa). If anyone claims one is better than the other, that's a great way of knowing said person doesn't know what their talking about. The answer is: It depends which level of finishing the respective watch company has ordered. Also worthy of note, a watch company can order an unfinished movement, and do the finishing themselves. This means they buy a movement for around $100 and invest 30-40 hours per movement, which obviously drives the price up substantially.

Kenissi on the other hand is a movement manufacturer created by Tudor, Rolex's sister company. They (unsurprisingly) make movements for Tudor watches, but have also began supplying other watch brands as of recent. Norqain, Breitling, Oris and others. I've heard that Chanel has purchased a stake as well, but this is something I don't know much about. Kenissi movements are known to be very robust, but in my humble opinion are not pleasing to look at. I find them quite boring looking and the finishing really isn't anything to write home about. I'm not criticizing Kenissi, they are purposely not finishing the movements to a high standard to be as affordable / accessible as possible. All 3 movement manufacturers create great and reliable movements, but ETA and Sellita have the advantage that they can be serviced by any competent watchmaker.

What I mean by better finishing is really how pleasing a movement is to the eye. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if we're talking about bevelling, cote de Geneve, perlage, and various other kinds of finishing, these are reserved for more high end movements. If you've seen a Tudor movement before, which use Kenissi, there is barely any finishing on the components (clearly reflective of their relatively low prices). If you get a higher grade Sellita or ETA, you will notice the finishing has a 3 dimensional look to it, with polished edges and bevels having a beautiful mirror finishing without or with barely any inconsistencies.

Hey winged, what do you generally think of upper level Japanese movements or Chinese movements? Or medium level Japanese...etc...?

KazGT6 posted...

Hey winged, what do you generally think of upper level Japanese movements or Chinese movements? Or medium level Japanese...etc...?

I love and own several Japanese watches myself. I love anything from the low end (sub 200) to the high end (5 digits). It really depends how punchy a watch can be within their price bracket. An Orient Bambino Small Seconds costs less than $200 and uses a Japanese, robust movement made by Orient (owned by the Seiko Group). It has hacking seconds, a manual wind feature and will run for 10+ years without a service.

Higher end Japanese watches are phenomenal as well and generally represent incredible value. Grand Seiko's finishing is incredible for the money you pay, however up until recently their finishing was really only incredible when looking at the case, dial, dial furniture, and hands. The movements looked pretty good too, but weren't amazing - until recently. When they introduced the Grand Seiko 9SA5 with the Grand Seiko White Birch, this changed completely. Their movements have finally come to the level of the rest of the watch, which is also reflective of their price. Grand Seiko have been moving up market in the last few years which I'm completely okay with seeing as they are developing higher quality timepieces. This is saying quite a lot, because as mentioned before they have been creating excellent watches since the 60s.

On Chinese movements... I'm really not a fan. The finishing is all machined (nothing wrong with that) but they are known to have problems. The difficulty is that when these movements have problems, it's very hard or even impossible to find a watchmaker who will touch them. It's usually cheaper to throw the watch away and buy another. This kind of defeats the purpose of a mechanical watch for me, so I generally stay away. Don't get me wrong there are Chinese movements that have featured very expensive functions like a tourbillon that are impressive because they manage to do it for a very low price. But the problem, again, if it breaks, you can throw it away.

The Japanese have a strong history in watchmaking, and it really shows. The quality is excellent and the prices are more than fair. You will get most bang for buck with Japanese watches. Below you'll see a picture of a Seiko Alpinist Ginza Edition I've acquired in 2021. It's just an example of insane value for money. The dial is beautiful and changes depending on how light hits it. It's reminiscent of the cobblestone floor in front of Ginza's first Seiko boutique. You have a 3 day power reserve movement, 200m water resistance, a screw down crown and a bracelet. If you wanted something Swiss with the same features, you will be paying closer to 4000. This Seiko however cost me $800.https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/0/AAMtjIAAEyUE.jpg

I've had like 2 fashion watches automatics--Kenneth Cole, a bulova automatic and a Seiko 5 sports automatic all pretty terrible

KazGT6 posted...

I've had like 2 fashion watches automatics--Kenneth Cole, a bulova automatic and a Seiko 5 sports automatic all pretty terrible

The Kenneth Cole... Yeah, not really for me. At all. I've held them before and they just do nothing for me at all.

A Seiko 5 Sports though, great sports watch for an affordable price. I own an SKX009 which is kind of the predecessor of the Seiko 5 Sports. both watches you could buy and never look back for the rest of your life.

winged_weltall posted...

The Kenneth Cole... Yeah, not really for me. At all. I've held them before and they just do nothing for me at all.

A Seiko 5 Sports though, great sports watch for an affordable price. I own an SKX009 which is kind of the predecessor of the Seiko 5 Sports. both watches you could buy and never look back for the rest of your life.

The Seiko 5 sports was off like half a min per day the ,Cole, worse

Fluttershy posted...

every time i see this topic i forget it's not about root beer and then i want it to be about root beer

I kept thinking it had something to do with an Internet Wrestling Community way to watch Kenny Omega matches on AEW.

theres a root beer thats like iwc?

CwebbMichSac4 posted...

what really is there to define, though? do they make better watches or not? duh

A $10 Casio will tell better time than any mechanical watch, yet I don't think most people would tell you that it's a superior watch to even a Tag Heuer, let alone something like a Rolex or Omega.

All of the brands that you've mentioned here are accurate enough for every day use and way too inaccurate for anything where precise timing is required.

How many fucking alts does the TC have?

KazGT6 posted...

The Seiko 5 sports was off like half a min per day the ,Cole, worse

Yeah unfortunately -30s may still be within their tolerances, but just on the worst possible side. You can bring it to a competent watchmaker who will regulate it for you. It'll take the watchmaker 15 minutes and he can check that it's around +-3-5 seconds on the timegrapher.

reincarnator07 posted...

A $10 Casio will tell better time than any mechanical watch, yet I don't think most people would tell you that it's a superior watch to even a Tag Heuer, let alone something like a Rolex or Omega.

All of the brands that you've mentioned here are accurate enough for every day use and way too inaccurate for anything where precise timing is required.

This is true. Mechanical watches have transcended from tools to luxury objects. Buying a mechanical watch isn't something you purchase for precision more than it is an appreciation of craftsmanship. The watch industry is going stronger than they've ever been going, so clearly the watch industry is onto something here. Physical objects that are seemingly unnecessary in today's age (luxury watches) still seem to be relevant. It's a shimmer of hope in this day and age where we own less and less (thanks, subscriptions) and rent, lease, subscribe etc. more and more.

winged_weltall posted...

This is true. Mechanical watches have transcended from tools to luxury objects. Buying a mechanical watch isn't something you purchase for precision more than it is an appreciation of craftsmanship. The watch industry is going stronger than they've ever been going, so clearly the watch industry is onto something here. Physical objects that are seemingly unnecessary in today's age (luxury watches) still seem to be relevant. It's a shimmer of hope in this day and age where we own less and less (thanks, subscriptions) and rent, lease, subscribe etc. more and more.

really, the watch industry is as strong as ever? i thought that wasn't true. Is that just the swiss watch industry?

JebronLames posted...

really, the watch industry is as strong as ever? i thought that wasn't true. Is that just the swiss watch industry?

I should have been clear "luxury watch industry", of which the largest part is obviously Swiss. Japan and Germany are also substantial within the watch industry but yes, as a whole the luxury watch industry is doing incredibly well at the moment.

winged_weltall posted...

I should have been clear "luxury watch industry", of which the largest part is obviously Swiss. Japan and Germany are also substantial within the watch industry but yes, as a whole the luxury watch industry is doing incredibly well at the moment.

oh, really? have not read about how the current swiss watch industry was doing at all. How about the seikos and citizens...etc... they are really struggling?

KazGT6 posted...

oh, really? have not read about how the current swiss watch industry was doing at all. How about the seikos and citizens...etc... they are really struggling?

Actual watch companies like those that you've mentioned are doing fine. The ones that are struggling are the fashion watch brands, which did make up a massive chunk of watch sales. Those got absolutely demolished by the Apple Watch. It fit the role of a watch that you could style to your outfit as needed while also doing significantly more than just tell the time, while also operating in the same price range as these fashion watches.

winged_weltall posted...

Well basically, ETA and Sellita are so similar that it's extremely hard to tell them apart. This is because ETA, who designed, developed, patented and created their movements lost their patents after X amount of years, and were therewith not allowed to call these movements their own anymore. Sellita, another Swiss movement manufacturer essentially copied these movements and are now selling them to all kinds of watch companies. The Swatch Group chairman Nick Hayek Jr. has stated numerous times that he intends to stop supplying other watch companies with the Swatch Group's ETA movements which made companies like Sellita grow incredibly fast inside the last decade.

The movements are practically indiscernible because you can order the same movements with different grades of finishing. A time only ETA 2824 and Sellita's SW200 are the same movement. But if you see an ETA 2824 with worse finishing than a SW200, that doesn't mean Sellita's is better (and vice versa). If anyone claims one is better than the other, that's a great way of knowing said person doesn't know what their talking about. The answer is: It depends which level of finishing the respective watch company has ordered. Also worthy of note, a watch company can order an unfinished movement, and do the finishing themselves. This means they buy a movement for around $100 and invest 30-40 hours per movement, which obviously drives the price up substantially.

Kenissi on the other hand is a movement manufacturer created by Tudor, Rolex's sister company. They (unsurprisingly) make movements for Tudor watches, but have also began supplying other watch brands as of recent. Norqain, Breitling, Oris and others. I've heard that Chanel has purchased a stake as well, but this is something I don't know much about. Kenissi movements are known to be very robust, but in my humble opinion are not pleasing to look at. I find them quite boring looking and the finishing really isn't anything to write home about. I'm not criticizing Kenissi, they are purposely not finishing the movements to a high standard to be as affordable / accessible as possible. All 3 movement manufacturers create great and reliable movements, but ETA and Sellita have the advantage that they can be serviced by any competent watchmaker.

What I mean by better finishing is really how pleasing a movement is to the eye. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if we're talking about bevelling, cote de Geneve, perlage, and various other kinds of finishing, these are reserved for more high end movements. If you've seen a Tudor movement before, which use Kenissi, there is barely any finishing on the components (clearly reflective of their relatively low prices). If you get a higher grade Sellita or ETA, you will notice the finishing has a 3 dimensional look to it, with polished edges and bevels having a beautiful mirror finishing without or with barely any inconsistencies.

great post @winged_weltall , very informative

reincarnator07 posted...

Actual watch companies like those that you've mentioned are doing fine. The ones that are struggling are the fashion watch brands, which did make up a massive chunk of watch sales. Those got absolutely demolished by the Apple Watch. It fit the role of a watch that you could style to your outfit as needed while also doing significantly more than just tell the time, while also operating in the same price range as these fashion watches.

yeah good pt. that makes sense. that the fashion watches like kenneth cole have taken a huge hit. But arent' things like apple watches , cost way more than fashion watches?

Omega > Breitling > IWC

KazGT6 posted...

yeah good pt. that makes sense. that the fashion watches like kenneth cole have taken a huge hit. But arent' things like apple watches , cost way more than fashion watches?

The Apple Watch SE is right in the middle of that market segment starting at $250, which ironically is actually cheaper than many smartwatches from fashion brands.

The internet wrestling community made me an awesome Hornswoggle watch.

actually nice when you see someone who knows something you have no idea about and really talks about it.