Current Events > Michigan hair salon announces they will no longer serve trans people

(+) Yeah! (+)

Roachmeat posted...

To be fair, I don't think I would want service from a person that already decided I wasn't worth the effort. A sign telling me to get lost would be welcome. Unfortunately, that slippery slope leads to whole areas or towns thinking like that and unrest starts happening (again).

Yeah, ideally I want to know if someone is bigoted in some way, so I can just not shop there or obtain their services. Please, shout your bigotry out loud and let me know.

It's the extremes of, if they are the only physical service in an area, what do you then do, that leads to the issue in my head.

xlr_big-coop posted...

This. Plenty other places that would welcome them with open arms, let the ones who hate you rot away.

at some point you have to drag people kicking and screaming into the 20th century, let alone the 21st century, whether they want to or not.

Shamino posted...

at some point you have to drag people kicking and screaming into the 20th century, let alone the 21st century, whether they want to or not.

This, Jesus Christ you got mfs trying to drag us back to pre-1955 and you got folks being lukewarm about it.

I will never understand being dramatic over pronouns, even though I'm an idiot that regularly messes up with them and just takes the correction. Still need to fully adapt.

It's legit just a minor change and causes no harm, and helps some people feel more comfortable even.

Thud posted...

Guarantee none of yall would want to do a project for a MAGAt or have a piece commissioned by the WBC and be forced to do it.

None of which are protected classes. Get a clue.

Hope they go out of business and the owner never has a successful business again

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Thud is about one post away from suggesting that trans people should rightfully be denied food services because Subway calls its employees 'sandwich artists.'

_Krave_ posted...

Eh, it's a really stupid idea considering that trans people typically have higher IQs, therefore better jobs with more pay,, and are less likely to have kids to spend money on, so it stands to reason that they'd have money to spend frivolously on salon trips.

Money is ungendered, I don't get why businesses don't understand that.

Where I work, I specifically have the trans community coming and shopping at my place because I treat them like humans, and I can't believe that's not the status quo.

It takes zero effort to treat everyone the same.

BettyWhite posted...

Seems stupid from a business perspective.

Take a strong stance against an extremely small group of people that she likely never interacts with. A small group that has a large amount of supporters that she most assuredly deals with everyday.

It's not like this will provide advertising for her as the premiere hate filled right wing salon of Traverse City enough to offset the losses this is creating.

Idk man. Traverse is a pretty "trumpy" place if you catch my drift. It's very beautiful and there are lots of breweries, but it's still pretty conservative overall.

The "You are not welcome here" is so over the top purposely cruel and evil.

Well...this will be a 'reap what you sow' thing in a bit so at least some good will come out of it.

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^This. You need to go in the opposite direction. If the South was really left to it's own devices, how long would outlawing slavery taken? Would schools ever be desegregated? Would there still be color/white drinking fountains?
At some point you have to look bigotry straight in the face, bash it straight in, and force change.

Shamino posted...

^This. You need to go in the opposite direction. If the South was really left to it's own devices, how long would outlawing slavery taken? Would schools ever be desegregated? Would there still be color/white drinking fountains?
At some point you have to look bigotry straight in the face, bash it straight in, and force change.

We need to start seeing the government remove some of these bigots from society entirely. Modern day banishment.

hockeybub89 posted...

Kinda wild how many people would have been supportive of segregation if the Internet existed then.

you should've seen this place in 2002.

Shamino posted...

^This. You need to go in the opposite direction. If the South was really left to it's own devices, how long would outlawing slavery taken? Would schools ever be desegregated? Would there still be color/white drinking fountains?
At some point you have to look bigotry straight in the face, bash it straight in, and force change.

From a history standpoint - they REALLY fucked up by ending Reconstruction early. Who knows what would have happened if they didnt but I bet we wouldnt have had Jim fucking Crow for starters

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Yeah I think they realize that.

legendary_zell posted...

This is a childish and ahistorical understanding of how discrimination operates. You absolutely can force tolerance, we've been doing it for decades and it works.

No, no it does not work. African Americans were forced to tolerate their slave owners. And after the slaves being freed, the slave owners had to tolerate their previous slaves having similiar privileges as them. Which did not go well. In order for tolerance to work in a true manner it has to be mutual with everyone. You can't force things like this. You can not make people understand you no matter how much you want to.

That just allows people to take an unreasonable amount of time to become more tolerant or delay it indefinitely.

These are people that treat life and society as a zero-sum game.

Thud posted...

I disagree. Your premise is based on the assumption that decent people do not and will not own or run a business. Forced tolerance punishes them too and even more so I would say. I am also talking about non essential services.

"Do what I say because I want it and am entitled to it" is a pretty fucking childish take imo and extremely reductive. No, you are not entitled to a hairdo or cake anywhere you want. Yes, you are entitled to emergency services, medical care, housing/loans etc free of discrimination.

Thank you

Refusing service shouldn't come from a place of malice no matter how people choose to dress it up.

Ragtag28 posted...

No, no it does not work. African Americans were forced to tolerate their slave owners. And after the slaves being freed, the slave owners had to tolerate their previous slaves having similiar privileges as them. Which did not go well. In order for tolerance to work in a true manner it has to be mutual with everyone. You can't force things like this. You can not make people understand you no matter how much you want to.

You can't force tolerance, but you can force equal treatment. And equal treatment is a huge step in the right direction. And equal treatment shouldn't be avoided just because people might still be intolerant and not like it.

You and Thud are toeing real close to a line you don't want to cross over.

Ragtag28 posted...

No, no it does not work. African Americans were forced to tolerate their slave owners. And after the slaves being freed, the slave owners had to tolerate their previous slaves having similiar privileges as them. Which did not go well. In order for tolerance to work in a true manner it has to be mutual with everyone. You can't force things like this. You can not make people understand you no matter how much you want to.

You're watering down what exactly happened.

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how did you even come to that conclusion?

All im saying is tolerance needs to be taught. You can not force it. Otherwise you create more bigots and bitterness amongst people.

Ragtag28 posted...

how did you even come to that conclusion?

All im saying is tolerance needs to be taught. You can not force it. Otherwise you create more bigots and bitterness amongst people.

I mean, you can and you should force tolerance for some services. A hospital or a school should absolutely not discriminate. If you're doing a road trip and pass a small town with minimal hotels, the hotels also shouldn't discriminate.

Shamino posted...

You can't force tolerance, but you can force equal treatment. And equal treatment is a huge step in the right direction. And equal treatment shouldn't be avoided just because people might still be intolerant and not like it.

You and Thud are toeing real close to a line you don't want to cross over.

Are you threatening me?

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I never once said that nor did I implied it.

Ragtag28 posted...

how did you even come to that conclusion?

All im saying is tolerance needs to be taught. You can not force it. Otherwise you create more bigots and bitterness amongst people.

Equality creates more discrimination

Dang you just invented a new paradox

Ragtag28 posted...

Are you threatening me?

No. I'm referring to toeing the line in regards to saying segregation is fine in a not so obvious manner.

Spoiler: Anti trans bigotry didn't "come around" in 1930's Germany.

The Forgotten History of the Worlds First Trans Clinic
The Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin would be a century old if it hadnt fallen victim to Nazi ideology
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/

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No I did not condone allowing segregation. You explicitly jumped to the conclusion by taking what I said completely out of context in order to mark me as some bigot in order to bully me for something you yourself do not understand. Do you know what segregation even is? I'm speaking of making peace with other people despite their differences while you yourself, ironically in a thread about tolerance, is being intolerant and judgmental without even trying to understand what im even talking about.

Shamino posted...

No. I'm referring to toeing the line in regards to saying segregation is fine in a not so obvious manner.

I did not say segregation is fine. That has never been said. What is with this site and jumping to conclusions? Holy hell.

Wow...."Black people should just make peace with slave owners that hung their relatives and beat them" is one hell of a take. Like Wow....

Ragtag28 posted...

No, no it does not work. African Americans were forced to tolerate their slave owners. And after the slaves being freed, the slave owners had to tolerate their previous slaves having similiar privileges as them. Which did not go well. In order for tolerance to work in a true manner it has to be mutual with everyone. You can't force things like this. You can not make people understand you no matter how much you want to.

So if you think you shouldn't force things like this, what should be done if someone says they don't want to service someone of a gender or race?

Sandalorn posted...

Wow...."Black people should just make peace with slave owners that hung their relatives and beat them" is one hell of a take. Like Wow....

Wasn't even what i said.

Thud posted...

You can't force tolerance

And yet we still desegregated the South and created protected classes so are you sure?

I see the chud Samurai_Man got suspended for his bullshit

emblem-man posted...

So if you think you shouldn't force things like this, what should be done if someone says they don't want to service someone of a gender or race?

Move on to the next service or create one that doesn't discriminate against other people.

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Im not falling for this. You specifically took what I said out of context to spite.
Edit: and shame.

Ragtag28 posted...

Move on to the next service or create one that doesn't discriminate against other people.

So you think desegregation was the wrong way to handle the Civil Rights Movement?

Ragtag28 posted...

Move on to the next service or create one that doesn't discriminate against other people.

Should there be exceptions to the services that are fine to discriminate? Does location matter?

For clarity, my opinion is on post #101. I think in 2023, it's much easier to make the claim that you can find other services even if some decide to discriminate. This wasn't always true in the past though, and they absolutely should have forced desegregation. But i'm sure there are locations today where some options just don't really exist

Ragtag28 posted...

Move on to the next service or create one that doesn't discriminate against other people.

Sounds an awful lot like how segregation worked, right down to water fountains and toilets

Prejudicial discrimination against vulnerable and marginalized minorities doesnt belong in a fair and just society.

That means that no, your business has no business discriminating against patrons and perpetuating bigotry.