Current Events > Zelensky slams NATO over no clear path to membership, despite Biden unity pitch

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1678782713082568705

Even when the current combat comes to an end win or lose. There is still the Crimea portion to answer.

Huh, i hate Ukraine now

He'd have to kick Russia all the way out of every section of Ukraine, or just give up Crimea entirely?

I always used to say on 261 that joining NATO was the only real path for ending the war and that Ukraine should be admitted immediately rather than being just sent weapons and expected to bleed out Russia in a forever war, and all the hawks called me a Russian tool for that, lol. Now the war is predictably still ongoing with no end in sight. Of fucking course they want to join NATO, and they need to be admitted.

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I always used to say on 261 that joining NATO was the only real path for ending the war and that Ukraine should be admitted immediately rather than being just sent weapons and expected to bleed out Russia in a forever war, and all the hawks called me a Russian tool for that, lol.

That's not allowed.

If Ukraine were to join now then all the other members would have to fight Russia directly. It just goes to show that the west is content with using Ukraine as a pawn to weaken Russia without having their own skin in the game.

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I always used to say on 261 that joining NATO was the only real path for ending the war and that Ukraine should be admitted immediately rather than being just sent weapons and expected to bleed out Russia in a forever war, and all the hawks called me a Russian tool for that, lol. Now the war is predictably still ongoing with no end in sight. Of fucking course they want to join NATO, and they need to be admitted.

Any deviation from the official stance of the west will get you called a Russian tool here, and probably moderated.

Bandit_Keith posted...

He'd have to kick Russia all the way out of every section of Ukraine, or just give up Crimea entirely?

Depends if Crimea is actually recgonized as "official Russian territory" instead of "Russian occupied Ukraine territory."

1337toothbrush posted...

If Ukraine were to join now then all the other members would have to fight Russia directly. It just goes to show that the west is content with using Ukraine as a pawn to weaken Russia without having their own skin in the game.

Any deviation from the official stance of the west will get you called a Russian tool here, and probably moderated.

Shut the fuck up.

Admitting Ukraine right now would start WW3. No fucking way

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

No.

If a country at war joined NATO, all other member would be committed to defending it. There is no way all existing members would vote for that, and decisions in membership must be unanimous.

Zelensky knows and accepts this, in reality.

I don't understand how he expects a clear timeframe for a condition based membership process.

1337toothbrush posted...

If Ukraine were to join now then all the other members would have to fight Russia directly. It just goes to show that the west is content with using Ukraine as a pawn to weaken Russia without having their own skin in the game.

Any deviation from the official stance of the west will get you called a Russian tool here, and probably moderated.

It's funny because the first part of your post is what a Russian tool would say and then you immediately try to obfuscate by claiming that's what the bad people would say a Russian tool would say.

Bad faith actors try to paint Zel as entitled and militant. Must be a day ending in ay.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Bad faith actors try to paint Zel

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/3/6/AAearvAAEpkU.jpg

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I always used to say on 261 that joining NATO was the only real path for ending the war and that Ukraine should be admitted immediately rather than being just sent weapons and expected to bleed out Russia in a forever war, and all the hawks called me a Russian tool for that, lol. Now the war is predictably still ongoing with no end in sight. Of fucking course they want to join NATO, and they need to be admitted.

the only way they can join right now is by giving up any claim to Crimea and thats definitely a Russian shill-worthy thing to expect them to do

chaos_knight posted...

Admitting Ukraine right now would start WW3. No fucking way

Are you 1:1 equating nuclear war with WW3 or do you actually think Russia and their friends could/would stand up to the full force of NATO's Navies and Air Forces?

There's no issue whatsoever with him wanting to join NATO, but the problem is that you can't really admit a nation at war into a defensive pact without drawing said pact into the war.

It sucks for Ukraine, but realistically speaking the West is doing all it can do short of starting WWIII.

K181 posted...

It sucks for Ukraine, but realistically speaking the West is doing all it can do short of starting WWIII.

We could be a heck of a lot quicker of F-16s, long range missiles and so on.

Plus actually swing our military industrial might at the problem. There's no excuse for Ukraine to have any kind of shell/ammo shortage.

Likewise, the US alone could declare itself a protectorate of Ukraine and provide air superiority and bombings.
Just operate within Ukraine. Don't actual declare war, call it a de-Nazification operation and the behest of Ukraine's leader.
Russia wouldn't call our bluff. (Wouldn't be a bluff but that's not the point.)

Why would there be a path when there's no clear end to the war?

You can't join during a war for obvious reasons.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I think it's a fair inference. If we're not afraid of nukes, who the fuck gives a shit about going to war with Russia? I know, easy for me to say but it would be absolutely so one sided because of the difference in naval and air powers it would be the end of Putin's regime in months.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

I think it's a fair inference. If we're not afraid of nukes, who the fuck gives a shit about going to war with Russia? I know, easy for me to say but it would be absolutely so one sided because of the difference in naval and air powers it would be the end of Putin's regime in months.

inb4:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/0/2/AAds4pAAEplW.jpg

thronedfire2 posted...

the only way they can join right now is by giving up any claim to Crimea and thats definitely a Russian shill-worthy thing to expect them to do

I don't think they should give up claims on Crimea and have never held that position, so try again.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Then change the fucking charter or allow an exception in this case. There are no excuses. NATO is a construct, and if it doesn't even do what it is supposed to, which is prevent a Russian invasion of Europe, then it is fucking useless.

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I don't think they should give up claims on Crimea and have never held that position, so try again.

but that is literally the only way they can join, countries aren't allowed in if they have active territorial disputes.

thronedfire2 posted...

but that is literally the only way they can join, countries aren't allowed in if they have active territorial disputes. so they would have to give up Crimea to get Russia out of the rest of Ukraine

That's assuming Russia will be satisfied with just Crimea, which they won't be, or else they wouldn't have invaded the rest of Ukraine in the first place.

thronedfire2 posted...

but that is literally the only way they can join, countries aren't allowed in if they have active territorial disputes. so they would have to give up Crimea to get Russia out of the rest of Ukraine

There is no such thing as a rule that is absolutely unchangeable, especially when we are talking about a construct like a security pact. And one nation, America, has such an overdue influence over the nature of the pact that they could very easily have it changed if they pushed for it. If they really wanted Ukraine to join, they'd find a way to have them join.

And in fact, NATO has already changed immensely from its original forming anyways because its entire purpose was as security for Europe against the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, which no longer exists. Notably, when the Soviet Union dissolved and the Warsaw Pact was no more, no one helplessly said, "Oh, well, I can't NATO can't exist anymore!".

Accepting that circumstances can change and that nations must adapt to them rather than inflexibly adhering to frameworks that no longer work is incredibly important, and in this case, necessary for preventing the misery being forced upon Ukraine right now. NATO should commit to enforcing Ukraine's border integrity, including Crimea, because if there is never a line in the sand, Russia will just keep trying this with nation after nation, over and over again.

Balkanize the country and admit into NATO the parts with no occupying invaders. They wouldn't actually do that, but it'd be effective on paper.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

So Ukraine should be destroyed because we're scared of Russia?

If the goal is to kill as many people as possible, admitting Ukraine to NATO mid-war would be a great start.

Yeah I don't see any scenario where NATO admits Ukraine while it's still under invasion.

It's cruel and calllous but no amount of anger will change reality. NATO won't let a nation join if they're actively in a conflict

he knows as well as everyone else does that ukraine is not getting into nato during this.

BurmesePenguin posted...

It's funny because the first part of your post is what a Russian tool would say and then you immediately try to obfuscate by claiming that's what the bad people would say a Russian tool would say.

What's really funny is that you've proven my point that if you don't correctspeak 100% on here then you're automatically considered a "Russian tool". I used to think the insane paranoia of the cold war was just a product of the times, but apparently it can come back quite easily.

ultimate_reaver posted...

he knows as well as everyone else does that ukraine is not getting into nato during this.

Then this is telling putin that as long as he's invading Ukraine, there is no NATO membership. Who knows how long this will be drawn out?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The hawks have worse takes than the tankies

ultimate_reaver posted...

he knows as well as everyone else does that ukraine is not getting into nato during this.

yeah he just wants to keep it in everyone's minds. the Crimea annex got forgotten about way too fast. plus it looks good for his people too.

1337toothbrush posted...

What's really funny is that you've proven my point that if you don't correctspeak 100% on here then you're automatically considered a "Russian tool". I used to think the insane paranoia of the cold war was just a product of the times, but apparently it can come back quite easily.

Then this is telling putin that as long as he's invading Ukraine, there is no NATO membership. Who knows how long this will be drawn out?

you have a history of massively shilling for russia and advocating ukraine just be abandoned via appeasement...kinda like the chamberlain tactic in ww2. anyone with any reading comprehension sees that you think russia should just be allowed to conquer ukraine with no opposition. in reality by helping ukraine fight a war for survival that they very much want to fight we are weakening one of our principle enemies and extending our influence into a place we have never had much sway. we have already gained massive influence in eastern europe and will continue to do so as long as russia keeps getting the shit kicked out of them.

obv we can't admit ukraine into nato when they are being actively invaded, but we can keep supplying them with superior weapons that massively outclass the russians. ukraine winning the war is just a matter of when at this point.

andel posted...

you have a history

No I don't. I have a history made up by people like you who follow me around topics and lie about my positions. Stop lying about me or kindly shut up.

This is the old Between a Rock and a Hard Place.

1337toothbrush posted...

No I don't. I have a history made up by people like you who follow me around topics and lie about my positions. Stop lying about me or kindly shut up.

oh and the many times you have been suspended/purg'd for defending russian murder of civilians is conspiracy too?

Am I allowed to say courting WWIII with Russia is madness or will I get accused of being a Russian agent for the 50th time?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

No. It's a rule that you're not allowed to have any territorial disputes.

andel posted...

oh and the many times you have been suspended/purg'd for defending russian murder of civilians is conspiracy too?

Are you also the kind of the guy who points to crime stats to espouse racist views? Moderations are proof of nothing other than people like you mass marking my posts while lying about me and managing to convince some inundated moderator, otherwise you'd be able to post proof of your claims, but you can't and neither can any of the others because you're all full of it.

Aloc posted...

The hawks have worse takes than the tankies

sorry, I'm trying to keep score here. who is a hawk and who is a tankie?

1337toothbrush posted...

Then this is telling putin that as long as he's invading Ukraine, there is no NATO membership. Who knows how long this will be drawn out?

for better or for worse zelensky's strategy currently seems to be appearing to be as strong and proactive as possible by injecting himself into basically every international conversation no matter how hopeless any sort of result occuring would be. it doesnt really seem to have any particularly negative effect on the public at large because hes going to keep getting money and arms no matter wat he says, and while we can never really know objectively how its percieved in ukraine at this point and time i doubt it's high on the list of anyone's concerns right now

Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Germany, France, Hungary and even the UK would never allow it.