Current Events > "we can't kill the bad guy because then we'll be just as bad as them"

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"the genocidal maniac that has killed/will kill hundreds of millions/billions? yeah, if we, the harmless protagonists who have never hurt a fly kill the villain, we will be just as bad as them"

this might be one of my most hated tropes. why is this such a common theme? it ruined Arrow. It's always so refreshing when you see a protagonist that isn't afraid to off someone when necessary

I hate it too. It's stupid as hell. Some even think that in real life too.

It's especially dumb when the main villain is spared, but their henchmen can be killed no problem.

Nuremberg and it's trials say hi...

I can't upload a photo of the front page of reputable newspapers the day after the sentences were carried out.

It's a moddable offense here.

When's the last time this trope was ever used?

Thats why im only like 99% liberal, because I absolutely support the death penalty in certain situations.

i get not killing them, but i want them beaten half to death or gtfo with that bullshit

Meanwhile, watch the protagonist absolutely obliterate canon fodder without so much as a glance.

Yeah, spare The Joker because you "don't want to be like him". Meanwhile, send 40 gangsters to a permanent nursing home in a paraplegic state because they were paid $50 to keep watch outside a safehouse.

The only Batman story that handled his "cant kill the Joker" bullshit well was Under the Red Hood, specifically because it accepts that it's an morally indefensibe position and presents it as a character flaw, not something admirable >_>

Kloe_Rinz posted...

"the genocidal maniac that has killed/will kill hundreds of millions/billions? yeah, if we, the harmless protagonists who have never hurt a fly kill the villain, we will be just as bad as them"

this might be one of my most hated tropes. why is this such a common theme? it ruined Arrow. It's always so refreshing when you see a protagonist that isn't afraid to off someone when necessary

The idea is it may become easier each time. Slippery slope fallacy. They believe they do it once next thing they know they are offing people that truly coulda been rehabilitated.

Then there is the idea that justice and law must prevail in cases of a criminal being put to death. Aka a court orders it.

We may see the flaws in this line of thinking but imagine if we let shit like that slide in real life. We would have a bunch of people taking the law into their own hands and innocents would die as a result. Not everyone is of good enough mind to be jury judge and executioner. I'd say few are. These fictional characters typically are but for one reason or another they hold themselves to a higher standard

Sufferedphoneix posted...

The idea is it may become easier each time. Slippery slope fallacy. They believe they do it once next thing they know they are offing people that truly coulda been rehabilitated.

Then there is the idea that justice and law must prevail in cases of a criminal being put to death. Aka a court orders it.

We may see the flaws in this line of thinking but imagine if we let shit like that slide in real life. We would have a bunch of people taking the law into their own hands and innocents would die as a result. Not everyone is of good enough mind to be jury judge and executioner. I'd say few are. These fictional characters typically are but for one reason or another they hold themselves to a higher standard

This is all well and good in a basically functional justice system. But Arkham Asylum is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Gotham is in a state of perpetual war and the "good guys" are choosing to pull their punches.

Batman and other protagonists like him are complicit in the genocide committed by these mass-murdering war criminals because he frequently has the power and capacity to stop it, and the intelligence to know the consequences if he doesn't - and he chooses not to every time. If only he was as merciful towards the poverty-stricken and desperate henchmen just trying to make a buck.

it's not Batman's responsibility to kill the Joker. It's the Justice system's fault for not putting Joker in prison instead of a psych ward.

Comic books love this stupid trope. Reddit happened to feed me this one just before I saw this topic:
https://i.imgur.com/eTyw4tl.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/TpfwbvE.jpeg

The OP gave the context that in this storyline, Red Skull had made a mutant concentration camp and imprisoned Magneto in it. Made him "grovel so Red Skull wouldn't kill his daughter" and "used stolen mind powers he got from shoving pieces of the then dead Charles' brain into his own to conjure the image of the SS guard that shot all of Erik's friends when he was a kid."

police are corrupt, but none of them can be the one to shoot any of the criminals in self defense?

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

it's not Batman's responsibility to kill the Joker. It's the Justice system's fault for not putting Joker in prison instead of a psych ward.

There is no prison or psych ward capable of housing him. You'd do as well to put Putin in a minimum security detention centre.

Batman is a multi-billionaire in a broken society who chooses to flout the justice system insofar as it lets him fly about in his tank and cripple misdemeanour felons. I think he has a moral duty to execute joker, if he's gonna go to all that bother.

pinky0926 posted...

This is all well and good in a basically functional justice system. But Arkham Asylum is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Gotham is in a state of perpetual war and the "good guys" are choosing to pull their punches.

Batman and other protagonists like him are complicit in the genocide committed by these mass-murdering war criminals because he frequently has the power and capacity to stop it, and the intelligence to know the consequences if he doesn't - and he chooses not to every time. If only he was as merciful towards the poverty-stricken and desperate henchmen just trying to make a buck.

Aside from say the joker maybe we know people would cry foul if he killed say the penguin or two face and call for his arrest or worse. You'd even have some bleeding hearts over the joker. Oh he was just mentally unstable. Clearly arkham sucks how come Noone tried getting him help somewhere better?

That too is a problem of this world. You'll always have bleeding hearts for these people.

Like this site itself is full of people against thr death penalty and you think they'd be OK with a vigilante offing them?

CE: "Batman should just kill the joker"

also CE: No one should ever serve a lifetime in prison. Prison is a place of rehabilitation. No matter what crime is committed there should always be effort to better these people so they can re-enter society as a contributing member and make up for their wrongs.

Sufferedphoneix posted...

Aside from say the joker maybe we know people would cry foul if he killed say the penguin or two face and call for his arrest or worse. You'd even have some bleeding hearts over the joker. Oh he was just mentally unstable. Clearly arkham sucks how come Noone tried getting him help somewhere better?

That too is a problem of this world. You'll always have bleeding hearts for these people.

Like this site itself is full of people against thr death penalty and you think they'd be OK with a vigilante offing them?

I'm against the death penalty, but that's because we live in a basically functional society with a basically functional (but flawed) justice system, and we don't have anyone close to the level of chaos and damage that the joker frequently affects on the city. There are many steps that can be made towards justice before offing someone. Gotham has tried all those steps, and he needs to be put down imo.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

CE: "Batman should just kill the joker"

also CE: No one should ever serve a lifetime in prison. Prison is a place of rehabilitation. No matter what crime is committed there should always be effort to better these people so they can re-enter society as a contributing member and make up for their wrongs.

I do think that partially boils down to as readers we know the joker is just pure evil even if it's because mental issues. In real life we often don't truly know all the details and deep down we know it.

"We can't kill the bad guy because we'll be bad as them."

"But we just mowed down a thousand of his mooks."

"It's okay, they're not people."

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

CE: "Batman should just kill the joker"

also CE: No one should ever serve a lifetime in prison. Prison is a place of rehabilitation. No matter what crime is committed there should always be effort to better these people so they can re-enter society as a contributing member and make up for their wrongs.

Seems like a bit of a strawman. I've ever hardly ever seen anyone on CE make the argument that every person ever is rehabilitable.

I have seen people make the argument that you should seek rehabilitation first, then restitution, then incapacitation then deterrence.

pinky0926 posted...

Seems like a bit of a strawman. I've ever hardly ever seen anyone on CE make the argument that every person ever is rehabilitable.

There are plenty that argue against death penalty though. I've some argue against it even when I stated I would be cool with it even if it was only a rare scenario where there was 100% certainty they where guilty like video footage

Sufferedphoneix posted...

There are plenty that argue against death penalty though. I've some argue against it even when I stated I would be cool with it even if it was only a rare scenario where there was 100% certainty they where guilty like video footage

That's usually because the death penalty is exorbitably expensive, gruelling for the victims to exact and has been metered out to the innocent more times than any person should be comfortable with.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

also CE: No one should ever serve a lifetime in prison. Prison is a place of rehabilitation. No matter what crime is committed there should always be effort to better these people so they can re-enter society as a contributing member and make up for their wrongs.

Only the bloodiest of bleeding hearts say that kind of stuff. Some people can't be rehabilitated and should be kept away from society so they won't harm anyone.

pinky0926 posted...

That's usually because the death penalty is exorbitably expensive, gruelling for the victims to exact and has been metered out to the innocent more times than any person should be comfortable with.

Why I made the argument for rare circimstance of 100% sure. If there absolutely zero doubt they are guilty all those appeals that drive the price up should go out the window cause why bother.

Kloe_Rinz posted...

it ruined Arrow.

I agree with you overall. However Arrow needed to come his ass down he was just a murderer after a while.

Sufferedphoneix posted...

Why I made the argument for rare circimstance of 100% sure. If there absolutely zero doubt they are guilty all those appeals that drive the price up should go out the window cause why bother.

How would that work? Because it's not the absence of evidence that draws out the time and cost of the death penalty. In most cases these days the evidence is overwhelming. It's the due process and appeals that the accused is legally entitled to have.

And "you don't get appeals because I am sure you are guilty before you've had every chance to prove that you are not" is very troubling.

pinky0926 posted...

How would that work? Because it's not the absence of evidence that draws out the time and cost of the death penalty. In most cases these days the evidence is overwhelming. It's the due process and appeals that the accused is legally entitled to have.

Sorry to jump in here .. but not all Evidence is not overwhelming in many cases, and police lie on stand and plant evidence and get away with it

cjsdowg posted...

Sorry to hope in here .. but not all Evidence is not overwhelming in many cases, and police lie on stand and plant evidence and get away with it

Exactly. Even in cases that on the face of it seem cut and dry, you still need to go through the fact finding to make sure it all stands.

I think a lot of it is in argument of slippery slopes. If you, just once, kill someone, these characters are afraid it will become easier to do in the future. Maybe yeah, they will kill a Joker or a Hitler, but maybe they will eventually be killing a Joe-bank-robbery or some Aladdin-bread-thief too. Usually these people are already unhinged and hanging by a thread me tally, like Batman. Spiderman doesnt kill, because he actually believes he can help people, and he also knows he cant be caught killing because then someone will see it and nobody would ever trust him again.

cjsdowg posted...

I agree with you overall. However Arrow needed to come his ass down he was just a murderer after a while.

While true, I remember it being so, so annoying in that third season when all of their problems could have been solved by him killing Malcolm and he just refused to do it. Much more sensible in the later seasons when he tried to avoid killing people but would do it if he had to.

_____Cait posted...

I think a lot of it is in argument of slippery slopes. If you, just once, kill someone, these characters are afraid it will become easier to do in the future. Maybe yeah, they will kill a Joker or a Hitler, but maybe they will eventually be killing a Joe-bank-robbery or some Aladdin-bread-thief too. Usually these people are already unhinged and hanging by a thread me tally, like Batman. Spiderman doesnt kill, because he actually believes he can help people, and he also knows he cant be caught killing because then someone will see it and nobody would ever trust him again.

That's a good point, Batman's no kill rule hasn't be portrayed as righteous in a while. It's presented more like a flaw these days, that if he starts killing, he truly would be no different from any other Gotham maniac and would need to be put down.

There's a lot of anyone tropes honestly.

Like that character who wants to be a hero so bad they throw logic to the wind to be one. They can't beat the villain, but they jump in to be the hero with no actual plan beyond "I have to stop the evil action."

That shit is so annoying to me.

They can't beat the villain, but they jump in to be the hero with no actual plan beyond "I have to stop the evil action."

That shit is so annoying to me.

you know who else is probably annoyed by that? villains.

pinky0926 posted...

How would that work? Because it's not the absence of evidence that draws out the time and cost of the death penalty. In most cases these days the evidence is overwhelming. It's the due process and appeals that the accused is legally entitled to have.

And "you don't get appeals because I am sure you are guilty before you've had every chance to prove that you are not" is very troubling.

I'm talking like video evidence plus being detained at the scene and time of the crime. Truly rare circumstances. Add that up with any and all other evidence and yeah I donr feel they should be allowed to drag the shit out.

Like best example off the top of my head. Active mass shooter situation. Gets seen.on camera doing it. Cops manage to detain the shooter..forensic evidence further backs it up. I have zero sympathy for that dude if they excute him right after the trial. It's a rare circumstance but I truly feel some people don't deserve to live so if there is a zero percent chance they are innocent why waste time and money.

Now I have a varying opinion on what I'm about to say. If I knew they could put them to work and make good off their labor then fine don't kill them. But not all prisons require a inmate to get a job. And I'm cool with that cause I'm not for slave labor. But some of them deserve to at least bust their ass working in prison. Prison isn't just rehabilitation its repaying a debt to society. I just don't agree with any and every inmate being forced into labor cause it's rife for corruption aka arresting people for petty shit doing everything to make sure they don't get early release parole etc. But if they are a lifer yeah work them up to a certain age at least.

Fluttershy posted...

They can't beat the villain, but they jump in to be the hero with no actual plan beyond "I have to stop the evil action."

That shit is so annoying to me.

you know who else is probably annoyed by that? villains.

Given how unrealistic the trope always plays out, all of its annoying.

Yeah, its a pretty silly thing to use. There are different levels of acceptability, depending on the circumstances of the series, the threat of the person to be executed, relative treatment of other individuals of a similar danger, level, etc. while Batman is fairly silly, at least its more that hes actually literally insane, and would personally snap if he did it. Though it makes no sense why the state does not execute every single one of his villains.

Sufferedphoneix posted...

If there absolutely zero doubt they are guilty all those appeals that drive the price up should go out the window cause why bother.

How do you prove "absolutely zero doubt" before an appeals process?

Antifar posted...

How do you prove "absolutely zero doubt" before an appeals process?

I kinda already explained that. And even if there was an appeal to such a case it shouldn't take decades

Someone should take the Incredibles 2's route of the superheroes actually making things worse because everything the villains steal/destroy is insured anyways and going after them endangers the public more.

It works for Batman cause he is already mentally unstable and he knows it. He is fighting crime dressed as a bat, he knows if he kills, he wont stop.

Kim_Seong-a posted...

The only Batman story that handled his "cant kill the Joker" bullshit well was Under the Red Hood, specifically because it accepts that it's an morally indefensibe position and presents it as a character flaw, not something admirable >_>

That has been covered extensively, in multiple comics.

Batman is a fucking psychopath, if he actually began just killing people, he likely wouldn't stop at one. It's the one thing that keeps his head on straight, rather than him going to the loony bin with the rest. It's not something you can defend morally, it's his code to keep himself from breaking.

Wasnt there a story where Joker was put on trial for a crime he didnt commit and Batman went out of his way to save/defend him lmao?

Killmonger posted...

Wasnt there a story where Joker was put on trial for a crime he didnt commit and Batman went out of his way to save/defend him lmao?

That was Joker: Devil's Advocate.

DToast makes a version of this argument every day to try and stop me shitposting.

It doesn't work.

Killmonger posted...

Wasnt there a story where Joker was put on trial for a crime he didnt commit and Batman went out of his way to save/defend him lmao?

USA is filled with people that got jailed for something they didnt do, is that the way to go?

Usually that happens because the bad guy is the only one smart enough to surrender and talk while goons just rush into their deaths.

Ivynn posted...

"We can't kill the bad guy because we'll be bad as them."

"But we just mowed down a thousand of his mooks."

"It's okay, they're not people."

normally i can forgive this trope but not when shit like this happens.

this is why I didn't like Batman's decisions in The Dark Knight, especially after I saw the first movie later and he just lets the guy die anyway? Just repeat it with the Joker, dumbass

Slayer_22 posted...

Batman is a f***ing psychopath, if he actually began just killing people, he likely wouldn't stop at one. It's the one thing that keeps his head on straight, rather than him going to the loony bin with the rest. It's not something you can defend morally, it's his code to keep himself from breaking.

I think Gotham would forgive him, and if he becomes the villain let Superman take him out?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/7/9/AARLwzAADMiT.jpg