Current Events > Tweet about JK Rowling and HP allegories goes viral

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darkprince45
10/08/22 8:33:42 AM
#1:


https://twitter.com/cherryxgarcia/status/1578477117007765506?s=46&t=jUtoIUNVB0Tk1ErF1lHZWQ

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Dat_Cracka_Jax
10/08/22 8:36:13 AM
#2:


"read the full conversation on Twitter"

No thanks

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Doom_Art
10/08/22 8:40:24 AM
#3:


Iunno there's definite criticisms you can make, and I get the desire to beat up on Rowling, but I feel like this girl is reaching in some areas.

Also the Fenrir Greyback point annoys me because while yeah the pedophilic werewolf is definitely a stand in for HIV stuff, we get a much more prominent, much more positive example counter to that stereotype in Lupin.

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LightningAce11
10/08/22 8:41:54 AM
#4:


The one thing you can definitely say is she didnt think too hard about many aspects of her world building because they fall apart with any close inspection.

see wizards only discovering toilets after the 16th century and shitting in their pants before that.

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Doom_Art
10/08/22 8:45:37 AM
#5:


LightningAce11 posted...
The one thing you can definitely say is she didnt think too hard about many aspects of her world building because they fall apart with any close inspection.

see wizards only discovering toilets after the 16th century and shitting in their pants before that.
the degree to which people fixate on this is weird as hell lol

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Doe
10/08/22 8:46:13 AM
#6:


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/9/7/AAcZIZAADwbd.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/9/8/AAcZIZAADwbe.jpg

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CyricZ
10/08/22 8:50:44 AM
#7:


Man, Disco teaches everything doesn't it.

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Doom_Art
10/08/22 8:52:14 AM
#8:


Doe posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/9/7/AAcZIZAADwbd.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/9/8/AAcZIZAADwbe.jpg
I mean it is definitely a thing in supplementary/epilogue material that the Ministry and wizarding society in general underwent a pretty big de-corruption and metamorphosis in the years after Voldemort's defeat

I'm not suggesting Rowling should get points for that, since it wasn't in the actual book, but I'm not going to fault a fantasy book series geared primarily towards 10-15 year olds for not going into the complexities about wizard politics and class conflict

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Kim_Seong-a
10/08/22 8:53:23 AM
#9:


At least half of these are ice cold takes rooted in memes or half-remembered details. Then the "Harry never tried to enact systemic change" thing just feels like a weird dig considering the first 4 books were "slice of life magic mystery" and the last 3 were "let's fight hitler". >_>

Rowling is a schlocky writer who punched above several tiers above her skill level when the series tried to tackle more serious themes, and as a person she's a bit of a shitheel, to put it mildly. But the recent sort of counter-culture takedown of Harry Potter feels like it's trying too hard. Which is a shame, because there are definitely problems with, say, how she handles the slavery angle, and there's a bit to be learned by looking at how she fucked up, but to reduce it to "harhar harry potter says slavery good" is just lazy. <_<

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Doe
10/08/22 8:56:02 AM
#10:


Doom_Art posted...
I mean it is definitely a thing in supplementary/epilogue material that the Ministry and wizarding society in general underwent a pretty big de-corruption and metamorphosis in the years after Voldemort's defeat
That's the exact sleight of hand liberalism performs in real life. You never see the meaningful change to structure and institution. It's just assured to come like the end of a fairy tale if you pledge to support the structure and institution as it is now.


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Jerry_Hellyeah
10/08/22 8:57:13 AM
#11:


Big yikes to the folks upset that a children's book isn't political enough.

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Kim_Seong-a
10/08/22 8:58:54 AM
#12:


Doe posted...
You never see the meaningful change to structure and institution. It's just assured to come like the end of a fairy tale if you pledge to support the structure and institution as it is now.

I mean...one of the Ministers loses his job and the other gets killed , and both a direct result of their wishy washy "politics before solutions" methods. >__>

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Doom_Art
10/08/22 9:00:36 AM
#13:


Doe posted...
It's just assured to come like the end of a fairy tale
I mean that's more or less what the series is

Like yeah, Liberalism sucks and centrists in this political climate tend to be fascist-enablers

but this is a fantasy book series drawing inspiration from fairy tales and mythology, written by a grade school teacher in the 1990s. if you're expecting some trailblazing leftist political commentary from it, then Iunno what to tell you

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Doe
10/08/22 9:02:02 AM
#14:


Doom_Art posted...
if you're expecting some trailblazing leftist political commentary from it, then Iunno what to tell you
Is that not what the OP of this thread is about?

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pinky0926
10/08/22 9:02:43 AM
#15:


I'm no Rowling fan but the reaching going on in that thread is legendary, lmao

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Doom_Art
10/08/22 9:04:56 AM
#16:


Kim_Seong-a posted...
I mean...one of the Ministers loses his job and the other gets killed , and both a direct result of their wishy washy "politics before solutions" methods. >__>

also this

another the end result of their wishy washy methods and "head in the sand" bullshit is basically the fascists infiltrating all levels of government and overthrowing it in a coup lol


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gunplagirl
10/08/22 9:16:25 AM
#17:


Jerry_Hellyeah posted...
Big yikes to the folks upset that a children's book isn't political enough.
Considering that Judy Blume novels covered plenty of issues from the perspective of kids and teens being conscious of the socioeconomic issues of their worlds and resolving to change what they could even provided their limited capabilities as minors? And oh, those were usually single entry books and not part of a multiple thousand page series? Yeah. Children's books can cover this stuff quite well if actually handled by a competent author.

Do I even need to explain how racism is a core issue in The Outsiders?

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LazLemon
10/08/22 9:32:16 AM
#18:


The Twitter thread in the OP is stupid and cherrypicks things in the books that support their argument - listing some things completely out of content or lacking important details - and completely ignoring stuff that goes against their argument.

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IShall_Run_Amok
10/08/22 9:40:09 AM
#19:


Maybe Just Kidding Rowling can't weave a coherent worldview into her stories because she is a bad writer and doesn't really have a coherent world view.

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11110111011
10/08/22 9:48:27 AM
#20:


On one hand I want to say people are reading too much into a kid's book series. On the other hand, the author is notorious for going back and retconning parts of her own series to seem hip and with the times, so I doubt she put that much forethought into anything she wrote.

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gunplagirl
10/08/22 9:50:26 AM
#21:


IShall_Run_Amok posted...
Maybe Just Kidding Rowling can't weave a coherent worldview into her stories because she is a bad writer and doesn't really have a coherent world view.
She hates trans women, that much is a consistent part of her worldview.

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Revelation34
10/08/22 9:57:06 AM
#22:


That entire thread was trash. Of course it went viral.

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IShall_Run_Amok
10/08/22 10:06:44 AM
#23:


gunplagirl posted...
She hates trans women, that much is a consistent part of her worldview.
Yeah but did she put it in her Hairy Podder book?

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gunplagirl
10/08/22 10:08:18 AM
#24:


IShall_Run_Amok posted...
Yeah but did she put it in her Hairy Podder book?
She had at least half a dozen "haha guy in a dress" jokes so I'd reckon so.

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IShall_Run_Amok
10/08/22 10:12:40 AM
#25:


gunplagirl posted...
She had at least half a dozen "haha guy in a dress" jokes so I'd reckon so.
Oh, well, egg on my face.

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Sad_Face
10/08/22 10:15:17 AM
#26:


Doe posted...
That's the exact sleight of hand liberalism performs in real life. You never see the meaningful change to structure and institution. It's just assured to come like the end of a fairy tale if you pledge to support the structure and institution as it is now.

BRO, JK Rowling got stumped on figuring out how write a compelling method of Harry, Hermione, and Ron becoming best friends while they were grouped off in the obvious houses they were supposed to be in, Ravenclaw and Slytherin for the latter 2 respectively. So she gave up on them being sorted in their logical houses and threw them all into Gryffindor.

If she couldn't come up with a compelling scenario there, why expect her to write a compelling multi-volume story of Harry becoming a revolutionary hero that meaningfully impacts and progresses his society for the better?

Rowling is clearly a brilliant writer for creating such a compelling magical world, but that #6's post, I think that was out of her hands.

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AloneIBreak
10/08/22 10:18:17 AM
#27:


Dumb everything must be activism takes like this make me glad I never read Harry Potter.

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gunplagirl
10/08/22 10:18:53 AM
#28:


IShall_Run_Amok posted...
Oh, well, egg on my face.
The series as a whole was mean-spirited. Don't forget that the 5th and 6th books used some equivalent to the following line a lot when Harry interacted with Neville or Luna:
"Harry looked at them pitifully" or "Harry felt a pain in the pit of his stomach as he watched ___"
Even when the character in question was having a great time, he was being judgmental of them while also considering them a friend? And hell, I'm pretty sure the 2nd book is the last time he stood up for Neville. If Luna hadn't been so conventionally attractive even with the unorthodox fashion and body language (which is totally autistic-coded but that's for another time), he'd probably have ignored her or grouped her in with the rest of the girls relegated to play background characters.

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Devilanse333
10/08/22 10:27:27 AM
#29:


Guys....Guys!!!!!
Twitter keeps saying the thing!!!!

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_____Cait
10/08/22 10:34:45 AM
#30:


Honestly, a lot of that stuff was before people started fighting about this stuff. Half of the books happened before the internet really took off, so information didnt spread as quickly.

Dobby wanted to be a slave, irrc. I and the other elves felt it made them who they were, and they broke down when they had some semblance of freedom. They were abused, yeah. But I felt the whole message was that Hermoine really wasnt equipped to help the elves. She couldnt understand what was really going on and couldnt help them.

The mean spiritedness was definitely a product of the time. But it was also fiction. I mean, so many people here defend worse stuff than Neville being a butt-monkey.

JK isnt really someone I admire, and she has hurt many people, but I think people are greatly overthinking the books. They werent meant to be deep social commentary. They just happened to have politics in them. I didnt feel anything was an allegory, minus the racism.

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_____Cait
10/08/22 10:40:58 AM
#31:


gunplagirl posted...
The series as a whole was mean-spirited. Don't forget that the 5th and 6th books used some equivalent to the following line a lot when Harry interacted with Neville or Luna:
"Harry looked at them pitifully" or "Harry felt a pain in the pit of his stomach as he watched ___"
Even when the character in question was having a great time, he was being judgmental of them while also considering them a friend? And hell, I'm pretty sure the 2nd book is the last time he stood up for Neville. If Luna hadn't been so conventionally attractive even with the unorthodox fashion and body language (which is totally autistic-coded but that's for another time), he'd probably have ignored her or grouped her in with the rest of the girls relegated to play background characters.

Harry isnt perfect, and was shown multiple times to be a bit short tempered, quick to judge, and reckless.

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PiOverlord
10/08/22 11:16:43 AM
#32:


This reads like an English 1000 College level paper.

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Rath_Attack
10/08/22 11:17:05 AM
#33:


Doom_Art posted...
Iunno there's definite criticisms you can make, and I get the desire to beat up on Rowling, but I feel like this girl is reaching in some areas.

Also the Fenrir Greyback point annoys me because while yeah the pedophilic werewolf is definitely a stand in for HIV stuff, we get a much more prominent, much more positive example counter to that stereotype in Lupin.


Remus still tries to kill them the one time he forgets to takes his medicine, and it doesnt help those are the only examples especially after were told the rest sided with Tom.

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LazLemon
10/08/22 11:18:41 AM
#34:


_____Cait posted...
Harry isnt perfect, and was shown multiple times to be a bit short tempered, quick to judge, and reckless.

I think people criticising Harry for this stuff forget that he was litro a teenager through most of the series. Are we getting heavy on a teenage boy for occasionally being a dick?

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gunplagirl
10/08/22 11:22:42 AM
#35:


LazLemon posted...
I think people criticising Harry for this stuff forget that he was litro a teenager through most of the series. Are we getting heavy on a teenage boy for occasionally being a dick?
I dunno, I'd just figure that the teen raised in a broom closet and thrust into celebrity and treated as a weirdo because of it might have a little empathy for others who aren't actively helping him at the moment.

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Rath_Attack
10/08/22 11:34:48 AM
#36:


gunplagirl posted...

The series as a whole was mean-spirited. Don't forget that the 5th and 6th books used some equivalent to the following line a lot when Harry interacted with Neville or Luna:
"Harry looked at them pitifully" or "Harry felt a pain in the pit of his stomach as he watched ___"
Even when the character in question was having a great time, he was being judgmental of them while also considering them a friend? And hell, I'm pretty sure the 2nd book is the last time he stood up for Neville. If Luna hadn't been so conventionally attractive even with the unorthodox fashion and body language (which is totally autistic-coded but that's for another time), he'd probably have ignored her or grouped her in with the rest of the girls relegated to play background characters.


Think thats more a thing with the movies than the books. Luna sticks out as an example of how much the fandom tends to overvalue how much Harry consider certain people friends.

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#37
Post #37 was unavailable or deleted.
silverpine
10/08/22 11:45:06 AM
#38:


it's pretty easy to look back now and criticize the books because we KNOW that rowling is a piece of shit. like we have the answer already so it's easy to find evidence that existed all along. i don't really have a problem with that either, just saying tweets like this are very "hindsight is 20/20".

what stood out to me back in the day when i was reading these books was.... i hated harry. i thought he was boring and never DID anything. it was like he had no personality or charm. i totally understand that he was a surly teen that didn't ask for the things that happened to him... even so, he just seemed shallow. back then i just thought she was a bad writer. now it means he's a liberal XD
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Kim_Seong-a
10/08/22 11:46:51 AM
#39:


_____Cait posted...
Dobby wanted to be a slave, irrc.

Dobby wanted freedom, but was pathologically obessessed with following the rules of his caste.

One of the big issues with the house elf slavery, and Rowling's writing in general, is that she wants to tackle serious subjects with complex, morally unsatisfying realism, but she also wants to be fucking lazy and stick to the simplified world building style of the early books.

It should be simple to say "yes, most elves have been gaslighted into subservience, but some still hate it." But no, it's just Dobby. Because as long as it's just Dobby, you never have to bother writing about the serious cultural issiues of it all unless Dobby (or later, Hermione) is there. And you can just boil the entire state of house elf rights down to "here's what Dobby's up to."

Kreacher was handled surprisingly well, though, imo, specifically because he was the only time when Rowling had the chutzpah to show the heroes being unrepentant assholes to him and also show them eat shit because of it. Dumbledore all but says that Sirius was responsible for Kreacher's radicalization and getting himself killed. >_>

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Jerry_Hellyeah
10/08/22 11:49:54 AM
#40:


gunplagirl posted...
Considering that Judy Blume novels covered plenty of issues from the perspective of kids and teens being conscious of the socioeconomic issues of their worlds and resolving to change what they could even provided their limited capabilities as minors? And oh, those were usually single entry books and not part of a multiple thousand page series? Yeah. Children's books can cover this stuff quite well if actually handled by a competent author.

Do I even need to explain how racism is a core issue in The Outsiders?

You missed my point by a mile, and intentionally stretched it further to sneak in a Rowling dig.

"Children's books" can convey fantastic messages that have real positive effects in the world. They have no less weight or power than other forms of literature. I agree with everything you said.

My point is that literature doesnt NEED this to be something great. The absence of political motive should absolutely not be viewed in a negative light, but simply a neutral one. Needing to be pulled around or see it happen seems like a dangerous road to go down.

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Ivynn
10/08/22 11:50:04 AM
#41:


I don't know why some people want everything to have a political statement or all protagonists must be activists. Why can't something just be a story?


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Jerry_Hellyeah
10/08/22 11:54:06 AM
#42:


Side note, I dont really give two squats about Harry Potter lady, in case I came across the wrong way there

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silverpine
10/08/22 11:54:44 AM
#43:


"neutral" is a political stance in this world, sorry
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CyricZ
10/08/22 11:56:07 AM
#44:


Ivynn posted...
Why can't something just be a story?
Like what? What are some examples of "just a story"?

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...
Side note, I dont really give two squats about Harry Potter lady, in case I came across the wrong way there
Phew. Yeah man we were really worried about that. Totally.

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TetsuoS2
10/08/22 11:56:14 AM
#45:


Monsters Inc did way better job of tackling a political issue than the entire HP series.

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Kim_Seong-a
10/08/22 11:57:22 AM
#46:


Ivynn posted...
I don't know why some people want everything to have a political statement or all protagonists must be activists. Why can't something just be a story?

To be fair here, the Harry Potter books absolutely do lean on political and social commentary as they progress so it's fair to criticize them for how they handle it.

Honestly the real irony is that a lot of the political writing is a condemnation of the kind of person Rowling's revealed herself to be.

Like, substitute her manic hatred for transpeople for like, centaurs or werewolves or something, and she'd fit right in as a villain in her own stories. The way she posts bad faith bullshit arguments and then acts affronted when called out on it makes her look like Umbridge lmao

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Rath_Attack
10/08/22 11:59:08 AM
#47:


silverpine posted...
it's pretty easy to look back now and criticize the books because we KNOW that rowling is a piece of shit. like we have the answer already so it's easy to find evidence that existed all along. i don't really have a problem with that either, just saying tweets like this are very "hindsight is 20/20".


A bunch of this stuff was brought up back then too, it just tended to get ignored.

Kim_Seong-a posted...
Kreacher was handled surprisingly well, though, imo, specifically because he was the only time when Rowling had the chutzpah to show the heroes being unrepentant assholes to him and also show them eat shit because of it. Dumbledore all but says that Sirius was responsible for Kreacher's radicalization and getting himself killed. >_>


Kreacher was already radicalized though, that was the main reason Sirius was a dick to him. Whats more he changes really stances real quick when Harry decides to be a good master to him.

And while Sirius does bare responsibility for his death, so do Harry and Dumbledore for being idiots. Everyone seems to forget Harry ran headfirst into Toms trap.

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Ricemills
10/08/22 12:00:00 PM
#48:


11110111011 posted...
On one hand I want to say people are reading too much into a kid's book series. On the other hand, the author is notorious for going back and retconning parts of her own series to seem hip and with the times, so I doubt she put that much forethought into anything she wrote.

those points seems to be in the same hand.

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Ivynn
10/08/22 12:08:42 PM
#49:


CyricZ posted...
Like what? What are some examples of "just a story"?

I should rephrase. I know most stories have some kind of allegory or commentary, intentional or not, what I mean is that why do some people treat it as a negative if a story doesn't explore a concept to the fullest or take a strong position on anything? I dunno, I read her complaints about Harry himself not doing anything as her being mad he isn't as hardcore about activism as she is.

For the record, I'm not defending Rowling as a person, I know she's a transphobe, I just think people should be allowed to write stories that don't go all in on politics/social commentary if they don't want to which I don't think JK Rowling intended to in the beginning. She leans into it later in the series and it's fair to criticize if she didn't do it well.

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Kan-Wan
10/08/22 12:16:35 PM
#50:


Kim_Seong-a posted...
At least half of these are ice cold takes rooted in memes or half-remembered details. Then the "Harry never tried to enact systemic change" thing just feels like a weird dig considering the first 4 books were "slice of life magic mystery" and the last 3 were "let's fight hitler". >_>

Rowling is a schlocky writer who punched above several tiers above her skill level when the series tried to tackle more serious themes, and as a person she's a bit of a shitheel, to put it mildly. But the recent sort of counter-culture takedown of Harry Potter feels like it's trying too hard. Which is a shame, because there are definitely problems with, say, how she handles the slavery angle, and there's a bit to be learned by looking at how she fucked up, but to reduce it to "harhar harry potter says slavery good" is just lazy. <_<

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