Current Events > New York has fourth-highest household debt in US and it's getting worse

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://nypost.com/2022/09/23/new-york-has-fourth-highest-household-debt-in-us-and-its-rising/

New York state residents have the fourth highest personal household debt in the country and the burden is only growing heavier, according to a recent government report. The office of Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli released a report this week indicating that New Yorkers were carrying an average household debt of $53,830 as of the fourth quarter of last year. The report noted that while New York was still below the national average of $55,810, the state was still well above the national average when factoring in just student loans and credit card debt per capita. By the end of last year, Americans amassed a total of $15.6 trillion in household debt. New York accounted for 5.6% of the total, or $869.4 billion.

California led the nation in national average household debt. Texas, Florida, New York, and Illinois round out the top five. According to DiNapolis office, average household debt has rose by 4% nationally and 2% in the Empire State during the first two quarters of this year outpacing the previous highs that were set in 2008. The vast majority of household debt both nationwide and statewide was made up by mortgage debt, according to the Thursday report. In New York, 69.2% of residents average household debt or $601.2 billion was owed to lenders for mortgage payments. Nationwide, that figure was 70.2% or $10.9 trillion. Households across the nation have record levels of debt, after a temporary decline at the onset of the pandemic in 2020, DiNapoli said. DiNapoli added: Borrowing can help individuals achieve their personal and financial goals, but high levels of debt can cause damaging long-term consequences. I urge policymakers to improve access for individuals and families to financial education resources, so they are better prepared to build a stronger financial future.

And this is all with low levels of unemployment. If people start losing their jobs and we are entering a recession thing could get ugly.

My cynicism-reflex tells me this is because of stubborn insistence to remain in rapidly-gentrifying high cost-of-living areas.

The slums are being obliterated, and this is what happens.

Questionmarktarius posted...

My cynicism-reflex tells me this is because of stubborn insistence to remain in rapidly-gentrifying high cost-of-living areas.

The slums are being obliterated, and this is what happens.

I definitely think we're entering an era where we collectively stop pretending that the only places to live are New York and the bay area, where people start seriously considering moving out into any number of states where cost of living is far lower. The last few years have showed us that a distributed workforce can work, so there's no longer a need to physically consolidate in one or two places.

We don't have a housing problem. We have a population distribution problem.

Yeah but who wants to live in MAGA counties?

Will_VIIII posted...

Yeah but who wants to live in MAGA counties?

Yeah, people making fun of flyover states for their entire lives have definitely created a situation where they're not even considering them as alternatives, but that's precisely why it's getting to the point where it's physically impossible to afford housing in a handful of places.

You've got people with no money trying to live in the most exclusive parts of the country while simultaneously making fun of the areas they could actually afford, and then demanding government regulation to make it more affordable for them to live where they want. It's a vicious cycle that only makes things worse.

s0nicfan posted...

I definitely think we're entering an era where we collectively stop pretending that the only places to live are New York and the bay area, where people start seriously considering moving out into any number of states where cost of living is far lower. The last few years have showed us that a distributed workforce can work, so there's no longer a need to physically consolidate in one or two places.

We don't have a housing problem. We have a population distribution problem.

Nah, most people are to entitled and stubborn to give up living in premium citys like them.

And is probably why some kind of universal housing wouldn't work for the most part.

s0nicfan posted...

I definitely think we're entering an era where we collectively stop pretending that the only places to live are New York and the bay area, where people start seriously considering moving out into any number of states where cost of living is far lower. The last few years have showed us that a distributed workforce can work, so there's no longer a need to physically consolidate in one or two places.

We don't have a housing problem. We have a population distribution problem.

Yeah. Even in new York state there's tons of places to live that aren't rural and don't have insane housing costs.

Like look here.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/3/7/AARLwzAADtHl.jpg

Albany is a pretty big city and capitol city of NY State and it's way fucking cheaper.

Wtf!!!

s0nicfan posted...

We don't have a housing problem. We have a population distribution problem.

As soon as the buses run out to the suburbs, the old post-war 'burbs will become the new slums.
We're looking at a flip of the 50s-60s paradigm, where the well-off are fleeing to the cities, and the suburbs are becoming abandoned.

Why do people have so much debt? I owe less than $50 on my only credit card, thats all the debt i owe

thx1138 posted...

Why do people have so much debt? I owe less than $50 on my only credit card, thats all the debt i owe

Cost of living is high in "liberal" cities and seeing Texas on the list, there's a few large conservative high cost cities too. Florida's issues with cost of living lie on the coast.

thx1138 posted...

Why do people have so much debt?

Insisting on living in NYC, LA, or the bay area, while being unable to afford living in NYC, LA, or the bay area.

Cost of living in Lodi or Utica is probably a lot more manageable, but gotta live in the city for some reason.

Questionmarktarius posted...

As soon as the buses run out to the suburbs, the old post-war 'burbs will become the new slums.
We're looking at a flip of the 50s-60s paradigm, where the well-off are fleeing to the cities, and the suburbs are becoming abandoned.

You're still thinking too local though. This isn't about extending the commute out from a city center. This is about recognizing that maybe your office doesn't have to be in Manhattan and you could have a satellite office in Ohio, or Arkansas, or Mississippi and get just as much done without paying the premium for the location.

Move the businesses, and that will move the people. Move the people, and that will move even more businesses into that area. That brings more money into the area, which means higher quality services, which will draw even more people.

s0nicfan posted...

Move the businesses, and that will move the people. Move the people, and that will move even more businesses into that area. That brings more money into the area, which means higher quality services, which will draw even more people.

That's the Detroit Cycle.

Questionmarktarius posted...

That's the Detroit Cycle.

Eh... Not quite. Detroit didn't diversify its business portfolio, so when the Auto industry collapsed too much of the Detroit industry collapsed at the same time and there was not enough else to fill in the gap. For this kind of thing to work it has to be gradual.

I know a website you'd like: https://www.strongtowns.org/

Questionmarktarius posted...

I know a website you'd like: https://www.strongtowns.org/

Just browsing their about page, it does seem like an organization that I would support. I had never heard of them before, but I definitely agree with their mission. Especially since their focus seems to be on empowering towns with information and resources to allow them to do better city planning and protect their town against economic downturn rather than trying to push through punitive legislation that tries to force some sort of change in the status quo.

Why should people born and raised there have to move out? It's a nonsensical thing driven by profits that only harms the people who made the city so desirable in the first place.

s0nicfan posted...

Yeah, people making fun of flyover states for their entire lives have definitely created a situation where they're not even considering them as alternatives

Living in a heavily MAGA populated area isn't a reasonable alternative for anyone remotely intelligent.

It is what it is.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Insisting on living in NYC, LA, or the bay area, while being unable to afford living in NYC, LA, or the bay area.

Cost of living in Lodi or Utica is probably a lot more manageable, but gotta live in the city for some reason.

Because that's where the jobs are. Back in like 2010, one of my mom's co-workers got a really nice house out in the valley. 2 stories, 5 bedrooms, 3 baths. Really nice place. And it was like 350k. A house like that in LA would have been 800k+ back then (and well over a million now).

The problem though, was that his job in LA was now 2 hours away from his home. That's the tradeoff. There's not a lot of job opportunities in some of these cheap cities.

s0nicfan posted...

Yeah, people making fun of flyover states for their entire lives have definitely created a situation where they're not even considering them as alternatives, but that's precisely why it's getting to the point where it's physically impossible to afford housing in a handful of places.

You've got people with no money trying to live in the most exclusive parts of the country while simultaneously making fun of the areas they could actually afford, and then demanding government regulation to make it more affordable for them to live where they want. It's a vicious cycle that only makes things worse.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah. Even in new York state there's tons of places to live that aren't rural and don't have insane housing costs.

Like look here.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/3/7/AARLwzAADtHl.jpg

Albany is a pretty big city and capitol city of NY State and it's way fucking cheaper.

Yeah, no. Albany is basically falling apart. I lived around the area for a bit. It's not really a city you move to, especially from NYC. Most of upstate NY is falling apart and is barren and is definitely not that much cheaper. The only really affordable places are like Utica in the middle of nowhere. It's been a popping place the last 5 years but it's also a 5 hour drive from NYC

Touching on Sonic's point as well, there are no affordable places for hundreds of miles from NYC. Me and my friends have been looking for years now. Everything out into the boonies of Philly or New Hampshire or West Virginia is expensive as fuck. It's not much cheaper than NYC. In fact, the areas surrounding NYC are even more expensive like Nassau, Westchester and NJ.

Moving to places like Ohio or Arkansas is not something that most people will be able to do. Though people from NYC have been leaving in droves to Florida, Georgia, Michigan and Texas these past few years.

Hop103 posted...

Cost of living is high in "liberal" cities and seeing Texas on the list, there's a few large conservative high cost cities too. Florida's issues with cost of living lie on the coast.

I dont think that is the case. I think Texas/Florida are just like New York/California. They have high cost cities Dallas, Houston, Miami, and low cost ones. But Dallas/Houston probably drive up those numbers for Texas. Because just like is the story in NY/CA people want to live in the urban cities driving up their rents.

And I actually remember it being a meme that people from CA/NY were moving to Texas due to their cost of living being lower. And that crowd probably drove up Texas prices.

archedsoul posted...

Moving to places like Ohio or Arkansas is not something that most people will be able to do. Though people from NYC have been leaving in droves to Florida, Georgia, Michigan and Texas these past few years.

Like I said, the process has to be gradual. People and business have to move together in order to build up a solid base or it won't work. Those cities that you say are crumbling, are crumbling because there isn't enough money to fix them, because there aren't enough people and businesses to raise enough tax revenue to do so. Those places will naturally turn around as tax revenue increases, but if your default response to a city starting to fall apart is to flee it then all you're doing is guaranteeing it. It might not be the same location, but you're highlighting exactly how this process can and does work in the current day.

It may be something that has to be incentivized, but it's an approach that will have far more long-term success than continuing to try to jam an infinite number of people into a finite space simply because that's where people most want to be.

thx1138 posted...

Why do people have so much debt? I owe less than $50 on my only credit card, thats all the debt i owe

May I ask what your age and what your living arraignments are?

archedsoul posted...

Touching on Sonic's point as well, there are no affordable places for hundreds of miles from NYC. Me and my friends have been looking for years now. Everything out into the boonies of Philly or New Hampshire or West Virginia is expensive as fuck. It's not much cheaper than NYC. In fact, the areas surrounding NYC are even more expensive like Nassau, Westchester and NJ.

Come out to Suffolk county while it's still affordable.

Best decision I ever made was going from 516 to 631

s0nicfan posted...

Those cities that you say are crumbling, are crumbling because there isn't enough money to fix them, because there aren't enough people in businesses to raise enough tax revenue to do so.

Yeah, you're definitely going to be a strongtowns fan.
https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/0/4/AAEhCpAADtIo.jpg

A lot of people see cities like Omaha, Kansas City, Des Moines, etc are in red states and think "gross, I don't want to live near a bunch of MAGA assholes" but don't bother looking into how the cities are.

Are they as great as NYC/LA? No, but they still have plenty to do, are generally a lot safer, the cost of living is waaaay lower, and the MAGAts aren't common

archedsoul posted...

Yeah, no. Albany is basically falling apart. I lived around the area for a bit. It's not really a city you move to, especially from NYC. Most of upstate NY is falling apart and is barren and is definitely not that much cheaper. The only really affordable places are like Utica in the middle of nowhere. It's been a popping place the last 5 years but it's also a 5 hour drive from NYC

I've a friend who lives in Albany and everything seems fine when I visit him. Also tons of parking compared to new York City

Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah. Even in new York state there's tons of places to live that aren't rural and don't have insane housing costs.

Like look here.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/3/7/AARLwzAADtHl.jpg

Albany is a pretty big city and capitol city of NY State and it's way fucking cheaper.

No, we also have a housing problem. Because if you look at the median home cost in Albany youll see that the average cost has far outpaced inflation

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/0/9/AAW8UqAADtIt.jpg

so its affordable compared to NYC, but has still experienced a significant price jump. This is reflected in cities around the countrypeople just want to live in cities (mainly because they arent shitty like suburbs)

Cities like NYC and LA don't really have to try to be appealing, there's always something to do
Yeah if you're the type who is a homebody then you can live pretty much anywhere, but for those people who are outside at night and trying new things there's not much else you can live. Major cities like Miami, Denver, Kansas City, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, etc. have a lot going for them, but now we're not really addressing the problem just putting a bandaid on it (plus these cities are still nothing like NYC or LA to people who actually live there).

Make urban areas worth living in with good public transit options where you don't have to drive 20 minutes somewhere just to get groceries. Until cities start actually urbanizing themselves then people aren't going to want to move there.

Avoid Kansas City. It's deep into a "field of dreams" delusion that building a shiny new airport, streetcar to nowhere, downtown stadiums, and asstons of taxbreaks for redundant hotels will somehow spur a revival - instead of catastrophic capital flight and the city becoming bankrupt within a decade.

TheGoldenEel posted...

No, we also have a housing problem. Because if you look at the median home cost in Albany youll see that the average cost has far outpaced inflation

That's the entire country though and we're in the middle of a housing bubble + recession with crazy interest. There's more affordable places than Albany for sure but I singled it out as an urban / metropolitan suburban area that's still far cheaper than NYC, by a lot.

If you go to the boonies somewhere between Ithaca and Buffalo you'll probably find even cheaper places to live.

Tyranthraxus posted...

That's the entire country though and we're in the middle of a housing bubble + recession with crazy interest. There's more affordable places than Albany for sure but I singled it out as an urban / metropolitan suburban area that's still far cheaper than NYC, by a lot.

If you go to the boonies somewhere between Ithaca and Buffalo you'll probably find even cheaper places to live.

Yes, the entire country has a housing problem

nobody wants to live in the fuckin boonies man. housing needs to be places that people want to live. Places with amenities, services, etc. and not for nothing but suburban sprawl is terrible for the environment

Imagine going a single day without eating avocado toast.

NinjaWarrior455 posted...

Make urban areas worth living in with good public transit options where you don't have to drive 20 minutes somewhere just to get groceries. Until cities start actually urbanizing themselves then people aren't going to want to move there.

That isnt going to happen car and airline lobby is too strong for that. Plus NIMBYs say dont build trains in our neighborhoods. NYC is kinda a sad situation where the majority of their entire train system was built in something like 40-50 years. If only they had like 10 more years before the NIMBY and car lobby stuff started.

SodomInsane posted...

Plus NIMBYs say dont builds trains in our neighborhoods.

Mass transit attracts residents who can't afford a car.
That's pure poison to NIMBYs

Sim Nimby. It's sim city but you can't build anything and you always lose

https://boingboing.net/2022/09/17/sim-nimby-the-game-where-you-cannot-build-anything-and-you-cannot-win.html

Questionmarktarius posted...

Mass transit attracts residents who can't afford a car.
That's pure poison to NIMBYs

Remember when Seattle voted against having public transit in 1968 and 1970 and it was given to Atlanta instead lmao one of the major fuck ups in the history city planning by Seattle.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/how-atlanta-got-seattles-subway/281-140120387

SodomInsane posted...

Remember when Seattle voted against having public transit in 1968 and 1970 and it was given to Atlanta instead lmao one of the major fuck ups in the history city planning by Seattle.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/how-atlanta-got-seattles-subway/281-140120387

from the article:

Pamela Crenshaw is one of them. She lives in Duluth, a suburb north of Atlanta. Five days a week, Crewnshaw drives 30 minutes to the Doraville Station, where she leaves her car at a park and ride and hops on MARTA's gold line.

Marta is still dependent on car-having.

SodomInsane posted...

California led the nation in national average household debt.

Not surprising. Housing out there is massively expensive.

s0nicfan posted...

Like I said, the process has to be gradual. People and business have to move together in order to build up a solid base or it won't work. Those cities that you say are crumbling, are crumbling because there isn't enough money to fix them, because there aren't enough people and businesses to raise enough tax revenue to do so. Those places will naturally turn around as tax revenue increases, but if your default response to a city starting to fall apart is to flee it then all you're doing is guaranteeing it. It might not be the same location, but you're highlighting exactly how this process can and does work in the current day.

It may be something that has to be incentivized, but it's an approach that will have far more long-term success than continuing to try to jam an infinite number of people into a finite space simply because that's where people most want to be.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but it's not exactly easy, especially when you have a lot of people that you would have to leave behind.

Those cities are crumbling because of ineffectual governing by NY state, so there's a bit more going on there.

bigblu89 posted...

Come out to Suffolk county while it's still affordable.

Best decision I ever made was going from 516 to 631

Yeah, I lived out there for a bit too. It's nice and quiet, but gets desolate. It's not exactly welcoming to non-white people depending on the areas of Suffolk you go to.

Which is another issue. Non-white people don't have as much mobility to go to many suburban and rural areas of the US unless they're bringing a whole crew with them.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I've a friend who lives in Albany and everything seems fine when I visit him. Also tons of parking compared to new York City

Parking where? Parking in downtown Albany was horrid. It was as bad as Boston.

This is gonna depend on the area of Albany. There are safer and quieter areas like Guilderland and Latham, but some are pretty bad. It's also not much cheaper than NYC, which is the bigger point. You go 200 miles away from NYC to an old ass city that is decaying to save a relatively small amount.

I was paying $650 for a 2 bedroom up there about 12 years ago. That place is now $1500. You can find a 2 bedroom in NYC for like $1600-$1800 in the outer boroughs, so uprooting to go there or the rest of empty upstate NY is not exactly a wise decision.

Questionmarktarius posted...

from the article:

Marta is still dependent on car-having.

This goes back to my previous post NIMBYs prevent this from happening.

In fact, MARTA was planned as a 100-mile system. But selling it to voters in Georgia wasn't easy--out of five counties included in the original the plan, only two, Fulton and DeKalb, voted to tax themselves to build MARTA.

Atlanta's train system was supposed to be bigger but voters voted against the funding. At least they have something.

SodomInsane posted...

This goes back to my previous post NIMBYs prevent this from happening.

In fact, MARTA was planned as a 100-mile system. But selling it to voters in Georgia wasn't easy--out of five counties included in the original the plan, only two, Fulton and DeKalb, voted to tax themselves to build MARTA.

Atlanta's train system was supposed to be bigger but voters voted against the funding. At least they have something.

Marta is slowly improving but it's like watching a tree grow.

I went to college in Albany, and it does have strong points, like a pretty decent bus system that I got well acquainted with because UAlbany students get to ride them for free.

Really though, the problem with Albany is parts of it are utter shit and there's not a whole lot nearby that isn't Albany or Troy (which is basically Albany but worse). And it's, as has been pointed out, not actually much cheaper at all. It just hasn't died because it's the state capital, contains a massive state college and at least one other private college.

What we're seeing is the confluence of declining real wages and housing increasingly becoming an investment vehicle.

SodomInsane posted...

Atlanta's train system was supposed to be bigger but voters voted against the funding. At least they have something.

The counterpart to NIMBY is the "why should I pay for something I'll never use?" mentality. I don't know if that has a clever acronym.

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