Board 8 > Dota 2 Mafia 2 Topic 2 - A Second Serving of Subtle Spiciness

(+) Yeah! (+)

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Hb I agree does not look great. Seems to be very one track minded.

Ok you know what, I'm getting fucking sick of this. People keep popping in calling me scummy with basically no evidence. Sultan, I'm going to ask you directly: What makes me so scummy? Describe how I've been anti-town

I take back that red not scum claim, but I do add Ctes and Kirby aren't scum together.

It's odd that Lea and Kirby are claiming almost antithesis roles.

Lea - Miller Ninja
Kirby - Miller Fake Mover

Lea claimed her movement based part first. Kirby claimed the Miller part first.

Lea tried to falsely claim Kirby cannot be compelled to defend him also.

Usually a scum Miller counterclaimer uses the Miller before them as a meat shield for protection. Lea seems moreso to be actively defending Kirby. That's interesting and not normal scum play, at least. Also means Lea claims to not show up on any scans or such which are bound to be in plethora based on wards and roles claimed so far.

Hbthebattle posted...

Ok you know what, I'm getting fucking sick of this. People keep popping in calling me scummy with basically no evidence. Sultan, I'm going to ask you directly: What makes me so scummy? Describe how I've been anti-town

Hb is scummy

Corrik7 posted...

Hb is scummy

any reasons why?

There is a lot of people who likely cannot be scum with Kirby which could bode well for Kirby being town. Lea's play is odd though. I know the gungho haha setup trap by hosts when multiple millers is they are always town, but I am not sure Isquen would fall into that usual trap to confirm people as town by having multiple miller's. Usually hosts are loathe to toss multiple roles in in order to not feel they screwed scum over if they claim truthfully.

Something to ponder there.

Lea's claim can only really exist for scum in limited roles. If claimed truthfully.

I'll come back to Lea later on. It's a possible death claim if true.

Hbthebattle posted...

any reasons why?

No you just are

Right over his head.

I take back that Lea and Kirby can't be scum together.

Corrik7 posted...

I'll come back to Lea later on. It's a possible death claim if true.

I dont think death claimed anything, corrik.

Leafeon13N posted...

I dont think death claimed anything, corrik.

It's possible the claim is one that will lead Lea to death as claimed if scum.

If we take out just all the super suspicious of the miller claim people, which scum is more likely to believe something off the bat due to knowing the person is actually town if so.

That would clear a slew of people as town. Hmmm I wanna look this over before day ends for sure.

Poppy I would consider not what I am looking for in the miller town clearing. Poppy votes due to counterclaim. I am more looking at people who attacked what they felt were inconsistencies with the claim.

Red ctes ulti attacking parts of the wording and claimed role actions. That's moreso what I am looking for.

Also of note

People that name dropped me were
Sultan
Death
Lea x2
Han

Just a random aside.

Votes with counterclaim reasoning are easy to defend for scum if it goes through as a mislynch. It's an easy to hide behind fallback.

Corrik7 posted...

Actually I like Red as town or at least not scum.

you're going to have to explain this one to me

Corrik7 posted...

Votes with counterclaim reasoning are easy to defend for scum if it goes through as a mislynch. It's an easy to hide behind fallback.

to be clear i stuck to that for barely any time at all, when kirby elaborated on his claim i changed my mind

reading obellisk. from topic 1:

TheSultanOfSlam posted... Lea any specific reason for the Han Vote. I don't even think Han has got started really this game?

I haven't seen anything scummy from him yet

Obellisk posted... Would you say you've seen anything towny from him yet, though?

i don't like this. feels like putting the burden of proof on the accused. the leadup to his han vote is incredibly telegraphed and the questioning of han feels more like a gotcha than good faith - unreasonable to expect han to remember every past experience with another player without any archives is not really realistic.

beyond that he's not doing a whole lot? a lot of his posts are just commentary without analysis added to it. leaning toward scum here

Hbthebattle posted... Alright. Part of it is how rapid he jumped perspective.

These were his three posts in a row before/during the vote, and you can notably see drastic perspective flips. He goes from thinking Han's D1 town actions can be foolish to then voting him because he hasn't been doing said "foolish" D1 actions. Unlike Han's "three minutes", I don't see a logical route for mindset to change like this.

this is from the first topic that i've been seeing while rereading, and it's not bad. i don't agree with it but i can see why hb might find kirby suspicious from a town perspective

##Unvote

Votes on Red are always good.

changmas is another one who feels like he's going under the radar this game, had sus on kirby and thought lea was real and that's it, otherwise posts are all about flavor related speculation which is pretty useless, decent chance of being scum

Do you feel the same way about Ctes, Poppy?

ctesjbuvf posted... I am highly skeptical of both Kirby and Lea having claimed miller. And I know Kirby said he's only effectively miller, but it's still the same to a cop. Might be role madness and all but still. My first thought was that Kirby would be the one lying. I just don't find it likely that scum would counterclaim anything that few posts into the game. Lea doing that aforementioned untargetable claim actually stopped a scum that game from claiming miller out the gate and that wasn't even the same role. Like, that also wasn't a role madness game but still you generally don't want to risk something like that. Even though claiming miller right away as scum also seems bold I find it to be a lot more likely move for scum. Really struggle to see both Kirby and Lea as town at least.

don't agree with this but think it's towny (and not an unreasonable thought given info at the time). ctes seems paranoid in a towny way, him digging into something lea said and voting her for it looks like hes really scumhunting. wish he'd broaden his scope but i think he's probably town here

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Do you feel the same way about Ctes, Poppy?

heh, can probavbly see i'm working through the roster here

but i think ctes has been more on topic and looks like he's actually trying to figure out people's alignments which i don't get from changmas at all

I should probably reread tomorrow. Chang was one of the guys who seemed on the ball to me, since he seemed to properly read events surrounding when I was getting voted

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Votes on Red are always good.

This is literally the most untrue statement we could make lets not start this shit again.

i still have a few people i need to read but it's past 1 am for me and i don't wanna fuck up my sleep for a mafia game. hopefully can get the full picture tomorrow

right now these people are the scummiest to me:

changmas
Obellisk
red13n

all doing very little and getting very little attention for it

PoppyTheNinja posted...

unreasonable to expect han to remember every past experience with another player without any archives is not really realistic.

I feel like I just got hit by a wave of deja vu. I think Sbell and Han have had that exact same conversation in a previous game before lol

PoppyTheNinja posted...

changmas is another one who feels like he's going under the radar this game, had sus on kirby and thought lea was real and that's it, otherwise posts are all about flavor related speculation which is pretty useless, decent chance of being scum

Tbh I completely forgot changmas was in the game until he called me out for ridiculing Han's lack of Hangut. But now that you've got me ISOing him...

Hey, chang, what do you think of Corrik and Lopen now?

changmas posted...

tbh i think we collectively work together to enable corrik to do his thing on day 1 for once and see what happens

he's been pretty spot on for the last few games and if he's scum it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out how he's led us astray if so

changmas posted...

for whatever it's worth as the only person who thought Lopen was scum Day 1 in Baseball Mafia (also known as purple monkey dishwasher mafia), I haven't felt the same way about him this game.

yeah he's overanalyzing the world's least meaningful comment but that's just his personality i think. if he insists it's truly relevant to voting at the end of the day i will be having a problem

I like that Poppy and I seem to have had similar thoughts throughout the game.

Hbthebattle posted...

Ok you know what, I'm getting fucking sick of this. People keep popping in calling me scummy with basically no evidence. Sultan, I'm going to ask you directly: What makes me so scummy? Describe how I've been anti-town

The evidence is that you've had nothing to say about anyone else besides me.

Sultan literally said you were "very one-track-minded". That's his accusation, and you seem to be rather on the defensive over it.

Kirby321 posted...

I feel like I just got hit by a wave of deja vu. I think Sbell and Han have had that exact same conversation in a previous game before lol

Tbh I completely forgot changmas was in the game until he called me out for ridiculing Han's lack of Hangut. But now that you've got me ISOing him...

Hey, chang, what do you think of Corrik and Lopen now?

I like that Poppy and I seem to have had similar thoughts throughout the game.

Feelings on corrik haven't changed at all. We should still let him do his thing even when he can't express his questions properly because he's been very accurate on reads in recent games and i'm down to let that run its course. if he's town, it's probably more accurate to listen to him for now than to lynch by democracy, unless/until we have role-based evidence to support a different plan.

Lopen has stopped overanalyzing completely irrelevant posts from red as I mentioned before and has started investigating sultan which I am completely on board with. feels fine to me, doesn't trigger any of the negative feelings i had against him in our previous game.

if there's anyone i'm worried about it's SBell, who might have another case of the "i rolled scum again and don't feel super motivated to play that alignment" disease.

i'm very much in the town camp for ulti and probably for ctes too, although there's a case to be made that i can't read ctes at all after thinking he was scum last game!

poppy, though unfamiliar with most of these players, is realllllly going after low hanging fruit here. HB, Mzero, me, red, SBell... that's about as close to a "routinely gets suspected by players on day 1 for general playstyle reasons" list as it gets for this playerlist. or i guess if you add corrik on there it would be.

Oh uhm yeah
Can confirm I was given an item

Its also, as far as I can see it, exactly what Kirby said it was.

Also those items sound like a headache and I am just gonna ignore them and hoard whatever money comes my way.

Not sure if this makes Kirby 100 % town either. Heck someone else on the scumteam could have given it to me. Its not exactly as dangerous a gift to them as the shot for Sultan was.
Still, thanks Kirby.

I'm still thinking Lea might be the best vote. I think I'm be repeating myself, but she swtiched back and fourth too quickly too many times to finally thinking probably town on a claim that you just should not feel that great about town with because oh there's a 0.01% chance it might do any good for town.

Lopen also humored that idea way too easily and then wanted to check when he had time who was after Kirby because he's too easy to a target seemingly acting like he wasn't doing that himself. He had his vote there on several occasions. Was even the first to attack without a counterclaim and went back to attack again later. Like sure, Kirby is easy go after today, but that isn't such a great point when the so called easy attack is the place where we have the most information and there have been conflicting things.

Both those things look like trying to look good if Kirby gets lynched and is actually town. Arguing against consensus is fine and all but when arguing is limited to things like "it's technically possible" and "and it could be..." then it glaringly looks like making yourself look good later. You just don't look at that claim and not consider more that it's simply scum decoy especially when Kirby doesn't exactly have that much else going for him this game.

I do not think all three that I just mentioned are scum, but two in there is likely enough and at least one in Kirby/Lea is basically certain.

If anything looks like people going after an easy target, it's honestly the HB votes both Lea and Lopen then resurged to, because he's making decent points that are just being ignored or shoved away as "correct statement that scum might as well have made" for no real reason.

What happens if you use the observer ward during the day, Death? Does it work the following night or the previous one so it would effectively be useless today?

The way its described with how the effect lingers for the whole next phase...
I guess it would last til the end of night1

It just seems to me like Lea suddenly came to think that going all out on Kirby and get him lynched would be worse than believing him and hoping they'd both get to live or that she'd look good if he didn't live.

But then again Kirby just hasn't looked that great and claims a role that makes no darn sense to have on town especially given all the abilities we know. Possible explanation is that Kirby had locked himself into not being "essentially miller" early so he had to claim something, but then being made the first to claim made him feel like he had to use his own scum power instead of coming up with something.

I'm sure there's a scum in that pairing and it is as if they fight to look like it, argh.

Also it'd probably be good for me to reread the day looking at everything else that I haven't been as focused on, but that wont be until later today.

I also feel like I need to broaden my horizon
So far I only feel like HB has been a bit too tunnelvisiony, but he is hardly the only one.

Also Sultan and Mzero I want to see post a lot more.

I remember MZero saying he had his reasons for wanting to know more about Kirby's role early in topic 1 but that he'd let Kirby answer something first. Did he ever get back to that?

Kirby321 posted...

It's a good question for scum to ask. I don't see the benefit for town to ask that question. If I say yes, scum would now have zero incentive to shoot me to make use of my power.

What does town stand to gain from prying that deep into my role?

This is what you're thinking about. It was about death asking if Kirby's re-claim still made it more beneficial to draw a shot from scum. I thought it was good questioning because it felt like death was trying to catch him in a contradiction, and I don't think scum (especially a vet like death) would so carelessly be like "should we shoot you bro"

So when I said it was a good question from death, I more meant that it looked like a question from town trying to scum hunt, moreso than saying the info would actually benefit town

Hb ignored my vote and I'm not pleased. Also like 90% of his posts are about Kirby and the rest were defending Han

gut says Hb scum Kirby and Han Town

Question that I'd love for everyone to answer (perhaps except for the two in question because that's useless info). Assume you know for certain that there's scum in Lea/Kirby, who do you think it is? Both is a valid answer. Neither is of course not.

Leafeon13N posted...

I am very curious that you left out scum on scum.

I've been on plenty of scum teams. you don't hinder yourself.
Scum doing it to scum would be as dumb as assuming I stunned Han just because I'm the one questioning it's confirmability of him.

Hbthebattle posted...

Ok you know what, I'm getting fucking sick of this. People keep popping in calling me scummy with basically no evidence. Sultan, I'm going to ask you directly: What makes me so scummy? Describe how I've been anti-town

dude you brought my name up like 3 different times inferring I'm scummy and literally have done nothing else about it.

so simmer down.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Question that I'd love for everyone to answer (perhaps except for the two in question because that's useless info). Assume you know for certain that there's scum in Lea/Kirby, who do you think it is? Both is a valid answer. Neither is of course not.

Lea, just because I'm not feeling any scum equity in Kirby's posts

##Unvote
##Vote: Sultan

I think what he is claiming to do on the last page doesn't jive with what a player trying to solve the game would actually be doing. Let's go through his posts.

855 est
- post 258 complains about amount of new content when I scummon him. "100 new posts"
1021 est (so about 90 minutes later)
- post 276 he lashes out at me and claims he's "trying to understand the shop" also claims Ulti is suspicious because he has many reads without justification. He claims I never mentioned him before my list and I explain this is false I've mentioned suspecting him several times including in my first post of the game.
- post 278 he snipes back that I had "pretty weak reasonings" this hostility in these two posts feels weird for Sultan
- post 285 he says "he's still catching up!!" when I point out how little content he's posted
- post 293 he mentions he did an ISO on me when I suspected him "Sultan doesn't like Millers that is fake argument that you reiterated after I asked so you know that is why I got distracted" this is not only a weird thing to claim he used his time on but also not something I said (it was Mzero) I was suspicious that he accepted Kirby's Miller claim so easily. He also says he's caught up now, 8 minutes after stating he's not caught up.
- post 296 he tries to drum up support to lynch Ulti and hb

He leaves, adding no content of value after catching up

I think he's lying about "reading the shop"
I think he's lying about doing an ISO on me and only said it because I was asking why he knew I wasn't mentioning him if he wasn't caught up (he had nothing to say about me that wasn't defensive)
I think he's lying about "catching up" because reading the game to do nothing with your read is pointless
He's been lurking
He was too quick to accept Kirby's Miller claim early

PoppyTheNinja posted...

reading obellisk. from topic 1:

i don't like this. feels like putting the burden of proof on the accused. the leadup to his han vote is incredibly telegraphed and the questioning of han feels more like a gotcha than good faith - unreasonable to expect han to remember every past experience with another player without any archives is not really realistic.

beyond that he's not doing a whole lot? a lot of his posts are just commentary without analysis added to it. leaning toward scum here

Han said he had the experience with Lea to know she would buddy to him. Yes the burden is on Han to prove that. He cited 1 game as an example. it wasn't a gotcha, it was a, "please show me how many times this has happened so that I can feel like you aren't lying to the game about xrap only you would know".

I'm afraid you've misread this one Poppy. Other than that I have enjoyed your presence so far.

I too agree that scum against scum isn't a good bet seems like a waste of something useful for not even making a real point about anyone. But it being used in the first place is a waste so.

Oh and he had a hostile tone towards me for suspecting him when I think town Sultan is more humble about it, realizing he has been suspicious and that I am completely justified to be suspicious of him

He has also gotten precious little mention from anyone after popping in to do nothing. To me that means some people who posted after him were likely scum.

I guess unless scum has somehow used another read on town Han and wants to prevent something or it isn't one time use and they might as well throw it on someone, then it might not be a waste.

Don't think we know enough for it to be worry considering unless someone claims the action.