Current Events > Florida is going to have military veterans replace teachers

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MedeaLysistrata
08/17/22 9:06:55 PM
#102:


47k is a decent starting sum for 2 years of professional school that is generally not competitive

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Kloe_Rinz
08/17/22 9:12:32 PM
#103:


47k is abysmally low for a trained educator even if they werent overworked. You guys dont get to hand them pennies and expect teacher shortages to go away. Handing untrained veterans pennies instead is even worse. Fuck this republican nonsense
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ZMythos
08/17/22 9:16:58 PM
#104:


For reference, I teach in Rural Wisconsin and will be making 45k before taxes this year. I've been teaching for 5 years.

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Questionmarktarius
08/17/22 9:21:06 PM
#105:


Vets already have ambiguous benefits, which gets around the impending teacher benefits and pension disaster.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teacher-pensions-the-math-adds-up-to-a-crisis/
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Popcorn2000
08/17/22 9:21:42 PM
#106:


Idiots
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Questionmarktarius
08/17/22 9:27:59 PM
#107:


Clearly, the public education system is broken, and better solution than "throw more money at it!" needs to emerge.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/24/the-problem-with-public-schools/
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COVxy
08/17/22 9:30:40 PM
#108:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Clearly, the public education system is broken, and better solution than "throw more money at it!" needs to emerge.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/24/the-problem-with-public-schools/

I think you are underestimating the effect of actually investing in education.

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Kastrada
08/17/22 9:31:26 PM
#109:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Clearly, the public education system is broken, and better solution than "throw more money at it!" needs to emerge.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/24/the-problem-with-public-schools/

WOKE CULTURE IS KILLING AMERICA

TOO MUCH SLAVERY AT MONTICELLO

Edit: And the person you linked to is a part of this conservative think tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Institute

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Kloe_Rinz
08/17/22 9:37:15 PM
#110:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Clearly, the public education system is broken, and better solution than "throw more money at it!" needs to emerge.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/24/the-problem-with-public-schools/
Fuck public education because fuck taxes is a trashy Republican belief and is completely shitty and anti-human
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GrandConjuraton
08/17/22 9:39:00 PM
#111:


Kastrada posted...
WOKE CULTURE IS KILLING AMERICA

TOO MUCH SLAVERY AT MONTICELLO

Edit: And the person you linked to is a part of this conservative think tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Institute
I didn't recognize the author's name, but I did get a heavy feeling that they were a crazy, and... seems I was right.

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ZMythos
08/17/22 9:39:24 PM
#112:


On the other hand, private schools treated school families as what they rightly are: valued customers.
Yea no. If your goal in education is profit motives, then you're part of the problem in education.

See also: Healthcare

The schools solicited their inputs and responded by opening their doors to in-person schooling. And they did it safely, without any widespread Covid-19 outbreaks. Many provided an online option for those who desired it.

That's a fucking lie and most schools that opened, public or private, had surges of COVID-19 cases. Not to mention the problem wasn't necessarily students getting it, but the teachers. One teacher is responsible for hundreds of kids throughout the day. If they're out sick for 7-10 days then that's going to have a big impact on the district since finding subs is hard enough (they face even worse conditions and compensation than full time staff)

I 100% guarantee that there is no school in America that didn't experience a learning deficit during the 2020-2021 school year due to COVID. Not a single school was fully prepared to handle a public health crisis. Some got by and minimized the damage, but many schools suffered greatly. Private schools are in no way exempt and anyone who claims they made it out in one piece is either ignorant or lying.


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Questionmarktarius
08/17/22 9:41:59 PM
#113:


Goddamit, that was the one with the least screamy bias, too.
Hold on...

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/detroit-schools-spend-more-educate-less-than-other-us-urban-districts
Probably worse, I dunno.

Gonna take a break from this thread, before I get tipsy and extra ranty.
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COVxy
08/17/22 9:45:02 PM
#114:


The issue is that the argument lies on the good old, very wrong, republican argument that public funding breeds inefficiency because it's "a given" and that on the other hand the invisible hand of capitalism will make ensure that no matter what the goal is it will be met perfectly.

It's just a weird fetishism of capitalism.

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Kastrada
08/17/22 9:46:18 PM
#115:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Goddamit, that was the one with the least screamy bias, too.
Hold on...

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/detroit-schools-spend-more-educate-less-than-other-us-urban-districts
Probably worse, I dunno.

Gonna take a break from this thread, before I get tipsy and extra ranty.

You keep linking us to think tanks that are trying to run schools like a business.

There are actual educators in this topic telling you what we need to teach successfully. We have actual experience with what works in a classroom and school setting.

The people you are trying to prove your arguments set around and talk about their beliefs in a vacuum and present it as fact with no first hand experience.

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Questionmarktarius
08/17/22 9:51:46 PM
#116:


ZMythos posted...
Yea no. If your goal in education is profit motives, then you're part of the problem in education.
What the Soviets got right, is running education as a "profit motive" about fifteen years out. China went nuts on that.
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Kloe_Rinz
08/18/22 5:33:40 AM
#117:


Kastrada posted...
run schools like a business.
is it not purely american to the core to exploit children for profit?
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Foppe
08/18/22 6:16:05 AM
#118:


https://youtu.be/XvAsR4O4W0w

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MedeaLysistrata
08/18/22 7:41:35 AM
#119:


Kloe_Rinz posted...
47k is abysmally low for a trained educator even if they werent overworked. You guys dont get to hand them pennies and expect teacher shortages to go away. Handing untrained veterans pennies instead is even worse. Fuck this republican nonsense
lol 47k is pennies?

Don't get me wrong, American teachers are definitely underpaid on the whole. And most of it is because it's a job that mostly women do, and it's funded by taxes which are low in the USA. If it was a man centric job they would definitely be paid more. But at the same time, to scoff at a 47k starting salary just reeks of being sheltered and privileged. My graduate professional program for third sector work (another mostly women job) would have had me starting at something like 35k if I had followed through with it. Ultimately it's not that difficult to become a teacher so they will never be making a TON of money. But you can still end up as a department head making like 85k, which is pretty good.

But yes, we should support teachers more.

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hockeybub89
08/18/22 7:53:48 AM
#120:


COVxy posted...
The issue is that the argument lies on the good old, very wrong, republican argument that public funding breeds inefficiency because it's "a given" and that on the other hand the invisible hand of capitalism will make ensure that no matter what the goal is it will be met perfectly.

It's just a weird fetishism of capitalism.


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MedeaLysistrata
08/18/22 7:58:21 AM
#121:


COVxy posted...
The issue is that the argument lies on the good old, very wrong, republican argument that public funding breeds inefficiency because it's "a given" and that on the other hand the invisible hand of capitalism will make ensure that no matter what the goal is it will be met perfectly.

It's just a weird fetishism of capitalism.
it's because republicans constantly advertise how low they can get taxes to be, and then turn around and tell people public institutions aren't good because they're inefficient. It's like yea, maybe put more money into them.

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Kloe_Rinz
08/18/22 9:12:50 AM
#122:


MedeaLysistrata posted...
lol 47k is pennies?

Don't get me wrong, American teachers are definitely underpaid on the whole. And most of it is because it's a job that mostly women do, and it's funded by taxes which are low in the USA. If it was a man centric job they would definitely be paid more. But at the same time, to scoff at a 47k starting salary just reeks of being sheltered and privileged. My graduate professional program for third sector work (another mostly women job) would have had me starting at something like 35k if I had followed through with it. Ultimately it's not that difficult to become a teacher so they will never be making a TON of money. But you can still end up as a department head making like 85k, which is pretty good.

But yes, we should support teachers more.
"a low pay isn't all that bad because some people get even lower than that"

no
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MedeaLysistrata
08/18/22 9:42:32 AM
#123:


Kloe_Rinz posted...
"a low pay isn't all that bad because some people get even lower than that"

no
The average salary in Florida is $48174 per year as of August 2022. That works out to a $23.16 hourly wage.
it's literally average pay. also keep in mind taxes are probably lower and so is living cost compared to where you live. there's more than just the dollar amount to be considered.

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Kloe_Rinz
08/18/22 9:59:23 AM
#124:


you think teachers should barely get average pay? no. especially not with the level of disrespect they get and how important the job is

and just because its average doesnt mean its not low
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MedeaLysistrata
08/18/22 10:02:54 AM
#125:


Kloe_Rinz posted...
you think teachers should barely get average pay? no. especially not with the level of disrespect they get and how important the job is
I think teachers should be able to make good money but I don't think starting salary is what should be the indicator of them making good money. I made that clear already. the pay you start at isn't what you make for your whole career.

Also if the profession was filled with money chasers, it would suffer.

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MedeaLysistrata
08/18/22 10:08:40 AM
#126:


Also, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be against raising the starting salaries, I just don't think it's the most important thing about this whole issue. Teachers do their job because they want to teach. They need to be provided with resources, training, and emotional support. And yes, they should still technically be able to make bank, but they face a lot more issues than that that need to be solved before raising the starting pay.

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Ruvan22
08/19/22 7:51:25 PM
#127:


Question, are you trying to discuss/debate this in good faith? Because you seem to miss a lot of responses, bring up unrelated points, and change your arguments...

1) Again - are you saying that hiring vets with no training is the only OTHER option?
Questionmarktarius posted...
Because the alternative is overworked teachers.

Ruvan22 posted...
To be clear, you are stating that those are the ONLY two possibilities in the universe?


Questionmarktarius posted...
Clearly, the public education system is broken, and better solution than "throw more money at it!" needs to emerge.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/24/the-problem-with-public-schools/

2) This article doesn't really address the question of BASE starting pay as much as difficulties firing and increasing wages for seniority. And as Kastrada pointed out, the author is a bit sus...

Questionmarktarius posted...
What the Soviets got right, is running education as a "profit motive" about fifteen years out. China went nuts on that.

3) And this is a different point from your initial argument - so now you are saying schools SHOULD be profit driven? Because it worked in two highly authoritarian countries?
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