Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 392: PM Mess

(+) Yeah! (+)

A combination of moderates overestimating the conservatism of the country and making a moral judgement on things they see as infringing on that, as well as a system literally designed to protect a conservative minority has led to US politicians, laws, and the media coverage of giving the appearance of a 50/50 split.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

A combination of moderates overestimating the conservatism of the country and making a moral judgement on things they see as infringing on that, as well as a system literally designed to protect a conservative minority has led to US politicians, laws, and the media coverage of giving the appearance of a 50/50 split.

I think progressives underestimate the conservatism of the country far more than moderates overestimate it. At the very least, it doesn't help that conservatives are the only ones that reliably turn out to vote (either in the general election, or more importantly, in primaries), sending a message to politicians across the board that conservative policies are what the American people want.

Its both? Like, the US is an unusually conservative country for a democracy. Its not nearly as conservative as its politicians are though.

The problem is that moderates only care about one thing: Themselves. If it doesn't affect them, they really can't be bothered. Which aligns very well with the conservative ideology. Conservatives just take things a step further and if it doesn't benefit them, but benefits people that aren't them, then it's bad. They also tend to not believe conservatives when they say they're going to do what they're going to do.

Republicans: "We want to overturn Roe v. Wade!"
Moderates: "They're just saying that to keep their voters in line. They won't ACTUALLY do it."
Republicans: *overturn Roe v. Wade*
Moderates: *shockedpikachuface*

Doesn't help that super pacs spread misinformation completely unchecked.

Dancedreamer posted...

The problem is that moderates only care about one thing: Themselves.

This is just a dumb strawman. Even if you said conservatives only care about themselves it would be a dumb strawman but at least then there is a tinge of truth to it.

masterplum posted...

This is just a dumb strawman. Even if you said conservatives only care about themselves it would be a dumb strawman but at least then there is a tinge of truth to it.

Nah perfectly accurate. Moderates tend to not give a shit about a bunch of things they think are bad policy because they ultimately feel it doesn't impact them.

I think the problem is the terminology. When I say "moderates", I'm largely referring to the conservative majority of the democratic party. They are, as Dancedreamer says, very self-centered (because that's a wonderfully American trait) and generally look out for their own interest above all else, which is why it's hard to make any sort of financial policy that might raise taxes, or might be seen as their tax dollars being used to help someone who isn't them. They're more than happy to campaign for minority rights or abortion rights, but ultimately, those are icing on a cake, rather than the cake itself for them.

The Republican Party are not conservatives. They're regressives who want to erase any progress in this country, in order to specifically enrich the wealthy (and their own pockets by proxy). And then you also have the far right, who just wanna be openly racist, which is basically what the party has been trending towards, ever since the Civil Rights Act spooked privileged white voters enough to cement their departure from the Dems and into the open arms of the GOP.

masterplum posted...

Even if you said conservatives only care about themselves it would be a dumb strawman

...how

In actual albeit expected news, the full contents of Alex Jones' phone obtained by the prosecution has been turned over to the 1/6 committee.

Dancedreamer posted...

The problem is that moderates only care about one thing: Themselves. If it doesn't affect them, they really can't be bothered.

I'd disagree that it's only caring about themselves. It's more "see no evil" combined with a complete lack of forward thinking. When the stakes are clear and imminent, suddenly you get situations like Kansas of all places voting to protect abortion. If that vote gets held a year prior, it probably goes the other way with much lower turnout.

kevwaffles posted...

I'd disagree that it's only caring about themselves. It's more "see no evil" combined with a complete lack of forward thinking. When the stakes are clear and imminent, suddenly you get situations like Kansas of all places voting to protect abortion. If that vote gets held a year prior, it probably goes the other way with much lower turnout.

The other thing with the Kansas issue is that it's a lot easier to get people onboard with social issues (abortion rights, convicted felons' voting rights being restored) when there's literally nothing on the table to dissuade them. So often, super popular liberal/progressive causes get sandbagged by the fact that, at the end of the day, people care more about their personal finances and protecting the status quo at all costs.

https://twitter.com/ScottMStedman/status/1556775348926238720?t=reD_xr3OO1zzG0oEVPcukQ&s=19

Fucking finally.

woahly

https://www.marijuanamoment.net/biden-doj-says-medical-marijuana-patients-are-too-dangerous-to-trust-in-motion-to-dismiss-lawsuit-on-gun-rights/

No matter how you feel about guns, the precedent this is supporting is backwards as hell and feels like it ends any hope of legalization.

Biden DOJ literally saying state legal (including Medical) Marijuana users should be restricted from owning guns on the basis of them being criminals according to Federal law.

Not sure what evidence they'll find that already hasn't been scrubbed after all this time, but you still love to see it

Alex Jones' text logs getting sent over is a bigger deal though

I agree, but the fact that it's finally happening is still a big deal

KamikazePotato posted...

Not sure what evidence they'll find that already hasn't been scrubbed after all this time, but you still love to see it

Alex Jones' text logs getting sent over is a bigger deal though

honestly I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt scrub stuff because Trumps a dingus and just didnt bother

Cosmic karma: this is the same date as Nixon's resignation

FBI bout to be defunded in 2024

MoogleKupo141 posted...

honestly I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt scrub stuff because Trumps a dingus and just didnt bother

Plus when you're committing like 12 new crimes everyday you're bound to forget about a few of them.

Late to this, but my quick take would be something like this.

The US is not nearly as conservative as the GOP thinks/acts like it is.
The US isn't really as progressive as some leftists think it is.

What it is is full of "moderates" who really just want the status quo because a culture of individualism kind of ingrains the idea that a collective like the government doing anything big is just intrinsically bad because they're conditioned to believe it will somehow infringe on their pioneer spirit or some shit even when that's just clearly not true.

So you get an electorate that tries to protect the status quo from often imaginary and just nonexistent threats... but then that is applied to an electoral and governmental system which was explicitly designed to empower a minority of wealthy white men which in turn delivers a result far more conservative than that electorate actually wants.

But it all happens under the guise of nothing changing all that much (still two parties, etc.) from an uninformed layperson's point of view so any attempts to alert them that this very much isn't normal, okay, or just is met with rolled eyes and "you're over-exaggerating."

Very much summarized and cut corners there instead of writing an essay for nuance but yeah.

I don't really like the term "moderate" because it implies more belief than the reality which I'd rather point towards complete disinterest. A disinterest that does of course come much easier to people who have little skin in the game and relative safety in the status quo.

although maybe disinterest isn't quite the word though because they also can be quite repulsed by any perceived partisanship, aka having a political stance.

US moderates are literally just conservatives who don't want to identify as conservatives because that would make them look bad lol

Kenri posted...

US moderates are literally just conservatives who don't want to identify as conservatives because that would make them look bad lol

It's splitting hairs, but that's how I parse "independent." "Temporarily embarrassed Republican"

But I put moderate in quotes because yeah it's more like what GMUN said.

Okay so Republicans are way more upset about Mar-a-Lago than I expected they would be. I mean, I SHOULD have expected it, but I didn't. Loooot of outright sedition on twitter right now.

KamikazePotato posted...

kay so Republicans are way more upset about Mar-a-Lago than I expected they would be. I mean, I SHOULD have expected it, but I didn't. Loooot of outright sedition on twitter right now.

Yeah this one apparently struck a nerve.

If the guy who constantly committed crimes and livetweeted those crimes is being held accountable for doing so, who will they go after next???

Not_an_Owl posted...

Well, depending on what Trump gets charged with as a result of this, one possible outcome if he's convicted is he's barred from ever holding any federal office again. So that's kind of a big deal.

Hey now this it technically false and all the centrist assholes on twitter have been up in arms about it being spread.

Oh is it? My bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5n5YzMm5LY

Not_an_Owl posted...

Oh is it? My bad

No, it is up for interpretation because it is in conflict with the constitution.

It is only "False" if you really want it to be.

It's not in conflict. People have literally run for president while incarcerated with no legal issues. It's being convicted in an impeachment trial that prevents holding federal office.

There is the sedition exception but that doesn't necessarily even require a criminal conviction.

KamikazePotato posted...

Okay so Republicans are way more upset about Mar-a-Lago than I expected they would be. I mean, I SHOULD have expected it, but I didn't. Loooot of outright sedition on twitter right now.

Shouldnt matter, Long way to go until November. Unless the FBI reveals they found nothing I doubt this changes much

pretty sure the fbi doesn't take the step of "raiding the residence of a former president" if there is any chance of the outcome being "lol got nothing"

Plus we know that they had to submit (and have signed off by a judge) what they were looking for and we know they took stuff back so it feels pretty safe they found (and in all likelihood knew exactly where to go, we also know they were there a while ago talking with Trump's lawyers about documents) what they were looking for.

Thorn posted...

Late to this, but my quick take would be something like this.

The US is not nearly as conservative as the GOP thinks/acts like it is.
The US isn't really as progressive as some leftists think it is.

What it is is full of "moderates" who really just want the status quo because a culture of individualism kind of ingrains the idea that a collective like the government doing anything big is just intrinsically bad because they're conditioned to believe it will somehow infringe on their pioneer spirit or some shit even when that's just clearly not true.

So you get an electorate that tries to protect the status quo from often imaginary and just nonexistent threats... but then that is applied to an electoral and governmental system which was explicitly designed to empower a minority of wealthy white men which in turn delivers a result far more conservative than that electorate actually wants.

But it all happens under the guise of nothing changing all that much (still two parties, etc.) from an uninformed layperson's point of view so any attempts to alert them that this very much isn't normal, okay, or just is met with rolled eyes and "you're over-exaggerating."

Very much summarized and cut corners there instead of writing an essay for nuance but yeah.

this is a much more concise and less confrontational version of what Ive said in the past, so thank you for that.

Thorn posted...

Late to this, but my quick take would be something like this.

The US is not nearly as conservative as the GOP thinks/acts like it is.
The US isn't really as progressive as some leftists think it is.

What it is is full of "moderates" who really just want the status quo because a culture of individualism kind of ingrains the idea that a collective like the government doing anything big is just intrinsically bad because they're conditioned to believe it will somehow infringe on their pioneer spirit or some shit even when that's just clearly not true.

So you get an electorate that tries to protect the status quo from often imaginary and just nonexistent threats... but then that is applied to an electoral and governmental system which was explicitly designed to empower a minority of wealthy white men which in turn delivers a result far more conservative than that electorate actually wants.

But it all happens under the guise of nothing changing all that much (still two parties, etc.) from an uninformed layperson's point of view so any attempts to alert them that this very much isn't normal, okay, or just is met with rolled eyes and "you're over-exaggerating."

Very much summarized and cut corners there instead of writing an essay for nuance but yeah.

I agree with this BTW, with the caveat that it bugs me when people act like the constitution should have just been different. I don't think people appreciate how difficult it was for the colonies to ratify a functional constitution

Well, from a moral/justice standpoint it very obviously should have been different. At the very least it shouldn't be treated like a sacred text that can't have its motivations and outcomes questioned. It very clearly no longer fits the current times and that has been true... for a while.

~~~

Back to the raid.

https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1556968629522014211

The FBI wouldn't, in my estimation, make this kind of move if we were talking about the document equivalent of jaywalking even if they were 100% sure they had him on it so I figured that there has to be something fairly significant about whatever documents they are alleging he took. This might be a hint.

Yeah him giving/selling stuff he took to other countries would certainly be one thing that would make the raid make sense

I also kind of get the feeling someone like Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez or Kamala Harris wouldn't fall into the same traps as Hillary Clinton due to being likely to get people of their respective ethnicities to vote for them in the same way as Obama.

So basically white women can go to heck.

Thorn posted...

At the very least it shouldn't be treated like a sacred text that can't have its motivations and outcomes questioned. It very clearly no longer fits the current times and that has been true... for a while.

wow, the constitution is a lot like the bible

I mean the whole idea was the constitution could be modified. It happened frequently initially.

But now its pretty much impossible.

Thorn posted...

It's splitting hairs, but that's how I parse "independent." "Temporarily embarrassed Republican"

But I put moderate in quotes because yeah it's more like what GMUN said.

Nah I' m an independent because both parties suck and I have no desire to be considered part of the Democratic party. Same is true of my wife and my sister.

Doesn't mean we won't be voting straight Democrat for the foreseeable future unless the Rs completely change their way of doing things and their priorities (which won't happen unless they get crushed in multiple elections in a row)

Lock

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/7/0/AAcM16AADi6-.jpg

him up