Board 8 > Am I the only one surprised Tom Cruise beat Marvel?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I got burned out of the MCU before I even started watching it.

everybody trying to out-hipster each other on how little they care about the MCU huh

I still love the MCU with all my heart!

EDIT: And even so, Maverick was better than Strange 2. And I literally got into a debate with somebody in the MCU topic about why Strange 2 Wanda was a good and logical progression, so it's not like I didn't love Strange 2!

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I'm hoping that Top Gun succeeding gets us a Die Hard finale but we'll see.

wait, bruce willis has retired so you want a die hard finale sans bruce willis? i'll pass on that one.

(i would pass on a die hard finale with bruce willis too, btw.)

I do like the fact that a movie where three of the four top billed actors are over 50 was such a big hit.

Yesmar_ posted...

I do like the fact that a movie where three of the four top billed actors are over 50 was such a big hit.

I do think it says a lot about good actor longevity, in that you don't need the latest BIG HIT young actor/actress to be a hit.

Granted, Marvel has been doing that, too. Not necessarily with over 50 actors, but Chris Evans, for instance, was not lighting up the box office prior to Captain America.

Many of the biggest action stars today are 50 or older. We just haven't replaced them with anyone else equally bankable yet.

Leonhart4 posted...

Many of the biggest action stars today are 50 or older. We just haven't replaced them with anyone else equally bankable yet.

While this is a fair point, it's not always a guaranteed mega hit. Expendables, for instance, didn't make nearly as much as Maverick has.

plasmabeam posted...

The amount of time spent watching the movies/shows isn't the problem.

The problem is the law of diminishing returns.

I hope you say this about every show you watch a single season of.

sounds like a modern day attention span problem

Leonhart4 posted...

sounds like a modern day attention span problem

I'd say this is accurate. With so many shows/movies available, people don't have the attention spans they used to. It's much easier to see one single thing about a show you like less, and drop it completely for another show.

Leonhart4 posted...

sounds like a modern day attention span problem

Totally. People who can't go 5mins without doing something else during the movie.

For me personally it's not that 12 hours is a terribly long investment, but more of that it feels like these are the only movies marketed to me and such a large portion of the movies being made. It feels like there's a lack of variety on the market as movies become more and more homogenized and marvel is a part of that.

There are more movies being made than ever

Yeah, i watch like 100 movies each year and none of them are marvel movies

It is a legit problem that cinemas are shutting out smaller films from screens to make way for Marvel films though. The films are still there but they are getting harder to see in a cinema. Its not really Marvels fault though.

LightningStrikes posted...

It is a legit problem that cinemas are shutting out smaller films from screens to make way for Marvel films though. The films are still there but they are getting harder to see in a cinema. Its not really Marvels fault though.

I'm honestly not even sure this is all that true, since that has always been the case for blockbusters and has been happening since atleast the late 90s.

With streaming services, it's easier to see obscure films than ever.

Maybe it appears like Marvel movies take up more screens because theaters in general have gotten bigger over time and have more screens to begin with, but I bet the actual percentage taken hasn't gone up all that much. I remember being a kid and having to call around to theaters to see if you could find one playing a certain movie, since everything close only had a handful of screens. Like, I remember the closest one had four, and only ever showed up to three movies at one time because the biggest movie at the time always took up two, or sometimes even three, depending on what it was. The example that I always remember was the Jim Carrey Grinch taking up three of the four screens.

StealThisSheen posted...

EDIT: Bigger movies have always gotten more screens, and trying to avoid releasing movies near them has been a thing as long as I can remember.

Feels like a particularly bad year for it because this didn't really happen and there's a huge glut of both blockbusters and smaller films coming out real close to each other.

So did everyone on Board 8 just forget what LFF is?

We've had No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, and now Love and Thunder in a short timespan. If someone is only a casual Marvel fan, they're not going to go see all of them. Plus, there's all the Disney+ shows.

Meanwhile, Top Gun stands out, and doesn't have as much to compete with with its target market, which is nostalgia for the 80s. Of course it'll outscore the MCU. Naturally, Disney has been oversaturating the market, but I'm sure they're fine with the money the franchise has been pulling in.

LightningStrikes posted...

It is a legit problem that cinemas are shutting out smaller films from screens to make way for Marvel films though. The films are still there but they are getting harder to see in a cinema. Its not really Marvels fault though.

They aren't shutting out smaller films, they're showing the ones that sell tickets. Without Marvel films half of the theater industry would probably go out of business. I have a local indie theater that shows nothing but the smaller movies and despite having a captive audience it's still such a small audience that they rely on donations. This place also has a liquor license, so they are maximizing their profitability and still some of these movies are so small that it's just not enough.

The truth is, if anything is a "legit problem" it is the people like you who cry out into wild clamoring for more small budget movies but then just don't put their money where their mouth is. Movie theaters don't make money if they can only sell 2-4 tickets per showing. Really if it weren't for overpriced concessions they wouldn't make money off of 20-40 tickets per showing.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

They aren't shutting out smaller films, they're showing the ones that sell tickets. Without Marvel films half of the theater industry would probably go out of business. I have a local indie theater that shows nothing but the smaller movies and despite having a captive audience it's still such a small audience that they rely on donations. This place also has a liquor license, so they are maximizing their profitability and still some of these movies are so small that it's just not enough.

The truth is, if anything is a "legit problem" it is the people like you who cry out into wild clamoring for more small budget movies but then just don't put their money where their mouth is. Movie theaters don't make money if they can only sell 2-4 tickets per showing. Really if it weren't for overpriced concessions they wouldn't make money off of 20-40 tickets per showing.

What a bizarre, accusatory, and frankly rude post (people like you?). I go to see these films. Also, the issue is the market system to begin with, so you literally just described the problem. The concentration of the business at the top.

Now, accounting for the lack of Russia and China, theres no evidence of a Marvel slowdown yet. But what happens when there is, if other films arent growing? Incidentally as I acknowledged in my original post, the issue is not Marvel films. The issue is the whole system around them.

I'm not sure Chich knows how to respond to somebody without being an asshole, honestly.

Maybe you specifically go to see the smaller movies but the vast majority of people I come across that decry Marvel's box office dominance simply don't go to see other films. That's not Marvel's fault, it's not the theaters' fault, that's on the audience.

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm not sure Chich knows how to respond to somebody without being an asshole, honestly.

Probably not. I'm pretty direct and don't feel the need censor myself even if maybe I should.

Im not really decrying Marvels box office dominance, indeed there have been years where it was clearly possible for smaller (and by smaller we basically mean all non-blockbusters) to do very well alongside the MCU films. The pandemic changed that, and so far the tentpoles have come back but the smaller ones are struggling to. The success of some makes me think thats not (just) an audience issue, along with the sheer volume that have been dumped on streaming. Hell, that last thing isnt even just affecting small films, it may have seriously damaged Pixar. Turning Red by all indications would have been a box office success (it was doing Coco numbers in the few territories it got released into cinemas). Now after Lightyear flopped analysts think the move devalued the idea of Pixar films as something you see in the cinema.

Edit: Oh and to be clear, streaming is great. It makes films muuuuuch more accessible. However, not giving films that deserve it a full cinematic release is bad.

Oh, and for the topic, Thor 4 pulled in a huge $143 mil for opening weekend. That beats Thor 3 by 20 mil.

I'd have to say that analysts are probably wrong on that one. Pixar fans had little reason to be excited for Lightyear. Where's Tim Allen, why is the backstory changed, and why is it so booooring? It's just not a good movie for the target audience.

And yes, there is certainly some pandemic related issues here. In 2018/2019 I was seeing stuff like like Sorry To Bother You, Eighth Grade, and Jay And Silent Bob Reboot at major chain theaters. None of them could fill even the smallest screens at the big chains, but they gave them a chance. Perhaps all of them got so close to bankruptcy they can't take chances on the small stuff. Maybe that audience stopped going because they switched to streaming. Maybe it's a little of both and some other things I'm not thinking of.

Whatever it is, it still comes down to audiences. Once the chains realized Everything, Everywhere, All At Once had real potential they put it onto thousands of screens. Maybe still half as many as Doctor Strange or Top Gun, but almost everybody who wanted to see it should have had the chance to. There is still room for small films even in the big chains, but people do need to show up.

Leonhart4 posted...

There are more movies being made than ever

This is not entirely true actually. Disney has always had a proportionally smaller input than other film studios and with them having bought Fox (oh sorry, 20th Century Studios) and canned a lot of their slate the effects on the industry at large are more apparent than ever.

Anyway Marvel movies are kind of just a fact of life now, which wasn't really true during Phase 3.

Yes it was

It has more to do with percieved big releases and marketing than the number of movies. I said feel for a specific reason. Because it pivotal isn't true but that's what perception I'm given. Almost all the marketing for movies that I see is marvel. There's pretty much always a marvel movie in the cinemas. When I was younger it felt like a whole bunch of different types of movies were in theaters, and now it does not.

And there are a lot of marvel movies that are considered blockbusters. I don't know that there are very many 'blockbusters' that aren't marvel movies released anymore. Relative to the number of marvel anyway

Its too early to say what the lasting impact of the Pixar on Disney+ will be. Lightyear certainly always looked dull, but its not like dull animated films with an unclear target audience havent succeeded in the past, including Pixar films. Also this is my soapbox to say that the Tim Allen controversy was blatantly manufactured, its clearly a different character. Regardless of Lightyear, what we can be sure of is that making Turning Red streaming only was a mistake.

On the number of movies, in cinemas there are still about half the releases there were pre-pandemic. Streaming definitely compensates for some of that but the pandemic did a number on film production. Time will tell what the lasting effects will be.

Leonhart4 posted...

Yes it was

Back then Marvel's consistent dominance was relatively new. It's like the Roger Moore era of Bond vs. Sean Connery's.

By Phase 3, people knew the MCU was here to stay.

I just feel like up until Black Panther the MCU was just one in a sea of big blockbuster franchises, then the one-two punch of that and Infinity War solidified it as THE big thing which is now more of a basic fact of life than anything.

The first Avengers movie put the MCU on the map and it hasn't really looked back since then. Black Panther was a phenomenon, but it doesn't become one in the same way without the MCU being an established brand already.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Anyway Marvel movies are kind of just a fact of life now, which wasn't really true during Phase 3.

*Phase 1

Leonhart4 posted...

The first Avengers movie put the MCU on the map and it hasn't really looked back since then. Black Panther was a phenomenon, but it doesn't become one in the same way without the MCU being an established brand already.

I meant more what cemented the MCU as THE big thing instead of just another big thing.

Okay fine I'll say it's MORE of a fact of life now compared to during Phase 3.

Pretty much every MCU movie has been a guaranteed blockbuster since Avengers and it gave them the liberty to start expanding the universe beyond what they did in Phase 1. Black Panther was the fruit of that, not the root.

Avengers established it.

Lots of huge box office successes after The Avengers (which itself made more than Black Panther). Pretty much every phase 2 movie is in the top 200 (non-adjusted) gross of all time. Even Thor The Dark World for crissakes. In phase 1 you had a lot that didn't make that cut and it felt more like a "normal" blockbuster franchise.

MCU fatigue is absolutely a thing, and I suspect a lot of the people still consuming every MCU show/movie are doing so out of some weird "obligation". The truth is the mainstream appeal of the MCU (outside of Spiderman) disappeared when they put the original crew out to pasture. There are only so many C and D tier characters they can dredge up before it becomes clear that they need to let Marvel relax for 10 years before rebooting with a new cast in the big roles.

The Multiverse provides an easy excuse to recast someone like Iron Man (although I'm sure filling RDJ's shoes will be a massive undertaking for whoever ultimately takes over).

And people have been complaining about MCU fatigue for years now. It's not a new trend. It's just getting accelerated as time goes on.

Doctor Strange MOM did 1.5x the box office Doctor Strange did. I know the cop out is "well it's Spider-Man" for No Way Home but it made more than Homecoming or Far From Home too.

I'll believe there's fatigue when a movie flops or heck as a starting point when they're drawing less than Phase 2 movies. I personally still look forward to them.

Oh, I'm not saying the box office will necessarily die down. Just the amount of complaining that they're tired of the MCU will keep going up as they put out more stuff.

I feel theyre more likely to try and push the X-Men/FF center stage before recasting Iron Man/Cap.

redrocket posted...

I feel theyre more likely to try and push the X-Men/FF center stage before recasting Iron Man/Cap.

Oh, I don't expect it to happen for quite a while since they've already gotten Falcon to replace Cap. It's just now they have an easy path to do it without having to do a hard reboot.

Did LMS actually dispute that more movies are being made now than ever? Aside from the pandemic year of 2020, there has never NOT been a rise in the number of released movies from the year before!

There was definitely a big increase around the time of Black Panther. Spider-Man Homecoming didnt even make a billion.

If we look at average gross its something like:

Phase 1: mean - $637.5 million, median - $507 million

Phase 2: mean - $876.5 million, median - $744 million

Phase 3 first half: mean - $884.8 million, median - $869 million

Phase 3 second half: mean - $1.512 billion, median - $1.23 billion

Phase 3 overall: mean - $1.227 billion, median - $1.13 billion

So there was clearly a bigger jump in overall attendance in Phase 3 than what got brought about by Avengers 1. They were also making twice as many films in Phase 3, over the same period of time. So, while the MCU was a huge deal already, it is reasonable to say that it became a lot more universal in both popularity and the number of films there were during Phase 3. I dont think its to do with any one film, more the buildup in general.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Did LMS actually dispute that more movies are being made now than ever? Aside from the pandemic year of 2020, there has never NOT been a rise in the number of released movies from the year before!

Not if you go by theatrical releases, 2019 was down from 2018, though still the number two year. 2021 was also down from 2020 because 2020 had three normal months. Were still nowhere near a return to normal in 2022 also. Thats the pandemic of course, but its a lasting effect not just one year. I wouldnt be surprised if the box office and the number of theatrical releases never returns to 2018 levels to be honest

Thankfully, streaming services increase the number far more than that. And that's the most salient point in this argument because the box office is not any longer the best means for a lower budget or independent film to be made.