Current Events > Parents voice concerns about the direction of the Princeton Public Schools

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://planetprinceton.com/2022/06/10/parents-voice-concerns-about-the-direction-of-the-princeton-public-schools/

Is that really what's happening? They're reducing the highest math class you can take to pre-calculus? If so, yeah that's bad. I feel like this isn't the full story though.

Im all for trying lots of new things in education, and I think there are lots of good ideas that people react negatively to without considering the positives, but removing options seems like a bad path though.

Princeton schools are ranked some of the best schools in the state, in the state with the best education in the country. So I definitely trust the Princeton administrators and educators to know what's best more than I trust a bunch of random outraged parents and Republicans and Joe Numbers

emblem boy posted...

Is that really what's happening? They're reducing the highest math class you can take to pre-calculus? If so, yeah that's bad.

Im all for trying lots of new things in education, and I think there are lots of good ideas that people react negatively to without considering the positives, but removing options seems like a bad path though.

A DEI consulting firm that was hired apparently argues for "equal outcomes, without exception" which is clearly not an intelligent goal.

joe40001 posted...

A DEI consulting firm that was hired apparently argues for "equal outcomes, without exception" which is clearly not an intelligent goal.

More details please. Like I said,

Im all for trying lots of new things in education, and I think there are lots of good ideas that people react negatively to without considering the positives.

emblem boy posted...

More details please. Like I said,

Im all for trying lots of new things in education, and I think there are lots of good ideas that people react negatively to without considering the positives.

Read the comments, the Doctor these people are going after is defending himself

Kneecapping the education of excellent students to own joe numbers.

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

At least I can still screencap. Here's the Dr. mentioned in the article defending his position in the comments. I agree 100%

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/9/AAaVCFAADYNV.png

ZMythos posted...

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

Yep. Tracking seems like a bad thing since it essentially picks out kids at a young age and starts them in that track. If you're weren't lucky enough to be chosen early on in your schooling, you're kinda out of luck .

Is that correct?

Background_Guy posted...

Princeton schooks are ranked some of the best high schools in the state, in the state with the best education in the country. So I definitely trust the Princeton administrators and educators to know what's best more than I trust a bunch of random outraged parents and Republicans and Joe Numbers

So the historic success of Princeton schools is attributed, in your mind, to bad policies that are proposed but not yet implemented...?

lol ok.

It's weird the kinds of knots people will work themselves into trying to defend clearly bad ideas.

I'm curious, was there any critical thinking that happened in your mind beyond "person I don't like doesn't like this, therefore I do like it."?

Because for your own sake you are likely better served by making up your own mind rather than just taking my or other's opinion and just putting a minus sign in front of it. The latter approach gives me all the power.

ZMythos posted...

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

At least I can still screencap. Here's the Dr. mentioned in the article defending his position in the comments. I agree 100%

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/9/AAaVCFAADYNV.png

I agree with that guy then. Have other high level math class options and also increase the general rigour of math classes for all kids, not just the ones chosen to be the select few.

as a side note... , I will say though, from a purely pragmatic sense... I wish people would not use "it's a racist policy" as an argument when talking to parents about this stuff.

If there's anything we've learned recently, it's that people don't care if a policy has racist outcomes. They just don't. It's sad as fuck and depressing, but use any other reason. It's very easy for people to be racist or support racist policies. Don't try to appeal to racists by telling them you want to fix racist things.

ZMythos posted...

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

At least I can still screencap. Here's the Dr. mentioned in the article defending his position in the comments. I agree 100%

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/9/AAaVCFAADYNV.png

Why do ignorant parents think their opinions on education matter more than actual experts in education? I don't go to the doctor and tell him I know more about medicine than him

Oh Joe is back

emblem boy posted...

I wish people would not use "it's a racist policy" as an argument when talking to parents about this stuff.

If there's anything we've learned recently, it's that people don't care if a policy has racist outcomes. They just don't. It's sad as fuck and depressing, but use any other reason. It's very easy for people to be racist or support racist policies. Don't try to appeal to racists by telling them you want to fix racist things.

Eh. I get where you're coming from, but not calling it out for what it is would be a disservice to the people these policies negatively impact the most.

I mostly leave it for the people at the top, since they can take the backlash. Teachers are much more vulnerable and are therefore much more careful with how they word things.

Background_Guy posted...

Why do ignorant parents think their opinions on education matter more than actual experts in education? I don't go to the doctor and tell him I know more about medicine than him

My department head for education had a great saying for this: "Let the pilot fly the plane"

ZMythos posted...

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

At least I can still screencap. Here's the Dr. mentioned in the article defending his position in the comments. I agree 100%

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/9/AAaVCFAADYNV.png

To say tracking "is racist" is a flat out lie, other people make this point in the comments as well.

The fact that he starts from such a position shows the flaws in his thinking. Tracking "is racist" is an ideological argument. Not a statement of fact. He can argue that there are better alternatives, but he has to make the case for them and demonstrate they will not compromise the ability if students to achieve higher level math.

I think I speak for just about all concerned parents when I say nobody is against an alternative that improves academic success. But to everything I can see, he is not doing that, he is saying "we need to get rid of tracking because it 'is racist' in some way I refuse to or am incapable of demonstrating, and also I refuse to or am incapable of articulating what if anything will go in its place."

You can't claim you don't want to remove calculus if you advocate polices that accomplish that. "Equal outcomes without exceptions" means that nobody will have an outcome higher than the outcome the least apt person can achieve, and that kind of thinking clearly hurts everybody IMO.

ZMythos posted...

Eh. I get where you're coming from, but not calling it out for what it is would be a disservice to the people these policies negatively impact the most.

I'd rather succeed in the end goal of making these changes though. Yes, not calling these things out is bad and does a disservice. But not being able to make necessary changes also does a disservice. Which disservice is worse.
Sometimes we just gotta not say the quiet part out loud .

For example, see Joes post above mine. Seeing the word "racist" absolutely triggers people, regardless of if it's true or not.
People are going to make bad faith arguments regardless, but let's not help them further make it.

joe40001 posted...

I'm curious, was there any critical thinking that happened in your mind beyond "person I don't like doesn't like this, therefore I do like it."?

Considering that conservatives are consistently trying to destroy American education and make it worse for everyone, yeah I feel pretty comfortable dismissing conservative posters' opinions on education. If that's bad, well so be it.

joe40001 posted...

Equal outcomes without exceptions" means that nobody will have an outcome higher than the outcome the least apt person can achieve, and that kind of thinking clearly hurts everybody IMO.

See, I agree that's what that phrase means, but I'm willing to apply enough good faith charity to believe that what people actually mean when they say that is more like, "I don't just want people to have equal opportunities, but I want to have high standards that everyone will meet "

It's a goal.
But maybe I'm being too naive. But yes, people should use their words better.

joe40001 posted...

To say tracking "is racist" is a flat out lie, other people make this point in the comments as well.

The fact that he starts from such a position shows the flaws in his thinking. Tracking "is racist" is an ideological argument. Not a statement of fact. He can argue that there are better alternatives, but he has to make the case for them and demonstrate they will not compromise the ability if students to achieve higher level math.

Tracking is a racist practice. Factually.

https://www.nctm.org/Standards-and-Positions/Position-Statements/Closing-the-Opportunity-Gap-in-Mathematics-Education/

Too many studentsespecially those who are poor, nonnative speakers of English, disabled, or members of racial or ethnic minority groupsare victims of low expectations for achievement in mathematics. For example, traditional tracking practices have consistently disadvantaged groups of students by relegating them to low-level mathematics classes, where they repeat work with computational procedures year after year, fall further and further behind their peers in grade-level courses, and are not exposed to significant mathematical substance or the types of cognitively demanding tasks that lead to higher achievement

joe40001 posted...

You can't claim you don't want to remove calculus if you advocate polices that accomplish that. "Equal outcomes without exceptions" means that nobody will have an outcome higher than the outcome the least apt person can achieve, and that kind of thinking clearly hurts everybody IMO.

You're either intentionally misrepresenting his position, or fail to understand it at all. He, along with almost the entire mathematics education community, believe that every student should have access to high quality math curriculums and instructors, but what they get is years of remediation, little access to critical thinking and modeling problems, and instructors that are ill equipped to teach quality mathematics

emblem boy posted...

I agree with that guy then. Have other high level math class options and also increase the general rigour of math classes for all kids, not just the ones chosen to be the select few.

as a side note... , I will say though, from a purely pragmatic sense... I wish people would not use "it's a racist policy" as an argument when talking to parents about this stuff.

If there's anything we've learned recently, it's that people don't care if a policy has racist outcomes. They just don't. It's sad as fuck and depressing, but use any other reason. It's very easy for people to be racist or support racist policies. Don't try to appeal to racists by telling them you want to fix racist things.

Almost everybody cares about racism, but they don't care about what certain people call racism because those people use it to apply to almost everything frequently with literally 0 evidence.

Take this person's argument for example. He just said tracking "is racist" without an iota of evidence. Why should a parent care about that? Why should anybody?

Personally I find it much more racist to lower expectations and tracks of mathematical success to people as a function of thier race.

So yeah, almost everybody cares about racism, but that doesn't mean simply by invoking the term without evidence people should care, only fools care about that.

joe40001 posted...

Almost everybody cares about racism, but they don't care about what certain people call racism because those people use it to apply to almost everything frequently with literally 0 evidence.

Take this person's argument for example. He just said tracking "is racist" without an iota of evidence. Why should a parent care about that? Why should anybody?

Personally I find it much more racist to lower expectations and tracks of mathematical success to people as a function of thier race.

So yeah, almost everybody cares about racism, but that doesn't mean simply by invoking the term without evidence people should care, only fools care about that.

People define what a racist policy differently. Until that changes, I stand by what I said. If people don't care about these types of inequalities or think it's an actual inequality, we should not try to appeal to them by saying we'll fix it.
Simple as that.

joe40001 posted...

Personally I find it much more racist to lower expectations and tracks of mathematical success to people as a function of thier race.

Let's get away from the race part.
Do you think there can be negatives to tracking for math?

How many times has joenumbers promised to stop his usual bullshit then immediately jumped back into it again

joe40001 posted...

Take this person's argument for example. He just said tracking "is racist" without an iota of evidence. Why should a parent care about that? Why should anybody?

I linked an NCTM article that cites numerous sources about the negative effects of tracking. Do you want me to do more of your homework for you? Here are several more articles saying the same thing.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775702000559#preview-section-references

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0002831213489843

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3326053

Students on low tracks are substantially more likely to stay on those low tracks and never get high quality math education. They are more likely to have lower self-esteem as mathematics students. And low tracks correlate more with race, language, and socioeconomic status than they do with actual mathematics ability.

Indeed, I taught a remedial math class just last year and 8 out of my 14 students were of hispanic descent, and 6 of those students were ESL students. All of them held the belief that they were in that class because they were stupid and/or bad at math. I've been working to detrack and eliminate those classes for three years now, and I've just started to see some success.

joe40001 posted...

So the historic success of Princeton schools is attributed, in your mind, to bad policies that are proposed but not yet implemented...?

lol ok.

It's weird the kinds of knots people will work themselves into trying to defend bad ideas.

Aren't you the guy who kept defending ivermetcin and hydroxychloroquine?

emblem boy posted...

People define what a racist policy differently. Until that changes, I stand by what I said. If people don't care about these types of inequalities or think it's an actual inequality, we should not try to appeal to them by saying we'll fix it.
Simple as that.

I agree with the behavior but not the framed reasoning. I'd say it thusly: people do care about racism, which is why even hardline conservatives don't like being called racist, but as such it should only be invoked we definitely appropriate.

Tracking for example is something with arguments for and against. (Personally I don't see how high level or AP courses are maintained without some form of tracking.)

The point is, and where I'd agree with your conclusion, is that it is inappropriate to attribute racism to the defenders if it.

Those who invoke 'racism' as a reductive cudgel to 'win' a argument seldom are acting in a sincere or pragmatic space.

Nobody is against retooling the education system in a way that will help, but many are concerned about hurting the education system in service of some performative wokeness that often ends up hurting those it claims to help.

If the "doctor" has polices that he can demonstrate will help without reducing high level classes I don't think there would be a problem.

But just listen to him in his own words: "I'm not arguing for the removal of calculus at any high school, but...".

Somebody who talks like that sounds like the type of person who is open to policies that would result in the removal of calculus at some schools, even if it's not the direct intention of his policy but just a consequence of it.

Parents aren't being absurd, many places have deincentivized "academic rigor" in the name of inclusiveness. And that just hurts people.

We need to help everyone with the interest and aptitude to succeed at high level academics get the resources they need to succeed, we don't help them by removing high level academics from public schools.

Like the parent said that just further advantages those with existing wealth.

emblem boy posted...

Let's get away from the race part.
Do you think there can be negatives to tracking for math?

Without question yes.

ZMythos posted...

I linked an NCTM article that cites numerous sources about the negative effects of tracking. Do you want me to do more of your homework for you? Here are several more articles saying the same thing.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775702000559#preview-section-references

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0002831213489843

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3326053

Students on low tracks are substantially more likely to stay on those low tracks and never get high quality math education. They are more likely to have lower self-esteem as mathematics students. And low tracks correlate more with race, language, and socioeconomic status than they do with actual mathematics ability.

Indeed, I taught a remedial math class just last year and 8 out of my 14 students were of hispanic descent, and 6 of those students were ESL students. All of them held the belief that they were in that class because they were stupid and/or bad at math. I've been working to detrack and eliminate those classes for three years now, and I've just started to see some success.

What alternative would you advocate for?

Far increased resources and mobility between tracks is different than abolishing tracks.

Would you agree with me that we should not do anything that would remove the existence or access to high level courses?

Hmmm... I'm pretty biased here because I doubtlessly benefited from educational tracking.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

You seem to confuse positions of authority with expertise. Do you truly believe just because somebody got themselves into a position of power they are necessarily knowledgeable?

Jabodie posted...

Hmmm... I'm pretty biased here because I doubtlessly benefited from educational tracking.

And what, if anything, do you think was wrong with your education? Did it at all feel predicated on others receiving worse education?

joe40001 posted...

A DEI consulting firm that was hired apparently argues for "equal outcomes, without exception" which is clearly not an intelligent goal.

https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Bergeron_djvu.txt

Hes the thing, parents of kids that are gifted will move out of the district so that their kids wont get bored in class. The school will lose the top kids and overall their standardized testing scores will drop. That will hurt them.

They are making the assumption that parents wont move. But many parents decide on where to live based on school opportunities.

Dude has negative self awareness.

joe40001 posted...

And what, if anything, do you think was wrong with your education? Did it at all feel predicated on others receiving worse education?

I'll warn you right now that I wrote a bunch of shit that doesn't have any real point. It's just me reflecting on my grade school education:

In some ways. During my first two years of high school, I had a mix of advanced and "regular" level classes and the difference in rigor and level of care was pretty large (one reason is that I was two years "ahead" in math/language, but placed into the regular curriculum). But I also had an issue of being extremely bored in school until I went into the full IB curriculum in my junior and senior years, so I understand the feeling of listlessness as you easily perform well in classes that seem to ask very little of you.

When I did shift into the IB curriculum, the rigor and level of stimulation increased immensely, and some of the questions and challenges that were posed to me were very important in forming who I am today and how I perceive the world. Success and understanding took a lot more effort and were, therefore, more gratifying. But at the same time, I knew that most of the school was basically being babysat and fed test prep for state education exams so the school can maintain its funding.

But at the same time, what can you do if a student simply needs extra resources and time to grasp the same concepts as another student? What can you, as the educator, really do if some students have parents that have time or resources for tutoring and some need to work part-time outside of school? What can you do to help a student that may be depressed or otherwise unmotivated to perform in school? Do you want to invest your time and effort into helping your best student really excel, or helping your struggling students better understand the material offered to them?

But it is natural for these teachers to want to put extra resources into helping their best students succeed. Being there to give advice on college applications, extracurriculars, career paths etc. And, when you enter into an accelerated education path, you will typically be around kids who have parents that are better off and can get good advice by osmosis.

Was it predicated on others receiving worse education? My personal experience comes from receiving a lot of extra attention and encouragement from my teacher throughout my life which has led me to almost never doubt my intelligence in any situation (but I quite often doubt my knowledge or understanding). That comes off as pretty douchey, and it is, but hey what can I say. And I know many, many people can't say the same simply by having less natural talent at the particular set of skills schools ask of you (which may or may not be representative of intelligence). I once had one of my teachers boldly tell me many students simply could not perform the way I do academically, an idea I was very averse to back in high school (and I was arguing with her about it).

My success in school was in no small part thanks to the support and attention I got from my teachers, which in turn helped me develop my skills to achieve my goals to this day. But what does my performance in school really say about me as an individual? I'm not really sure to this day.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I'm perfectly capable of answering your question.

There's countless experts in every field who are far smarter than me in that field or in general.

Adam Savage, Quinton Tarantino, Penn and Teller, John McWhorter, Dave Filoni, Vince Gilligan, almost all career musicians, I mean I can list names of experts all day but I doubt you'll concede anything.

But speaking of dodging, are you capable of answering my question?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I did, I named experts I respect. Do you need me to name education experts, or are you just trying really hard to dodge my question?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Your question was literally:

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


My answer was yes and I named them.

Your question was answered, you continue to dodge my question. So I will restate it for you:
"Do you believe a person being in a position of authority in a field means they are necessarily knowledgeable in that field?"

Jabodie posted...

I'll warn you right now that I wrote a bunch of shit that doesn't have any real point. It's just me reflecting on my grade school education:

In some ways. During my first two years of high school, I had a mix of advanced and "regular" level classes and the difference in rigor and level of care was pretty large (one reason is that I was two years "ahead" in math/language, but placed into the regular curriculum). But I also had an issue of being extremely bored in school until I went into the full IB curriculum in my junior and senior years, so I understand the feeling of listlessness as you easily perform well in classes that seem to ask very little of you.

When I did shift into the IB curriculum, the rigor and level of stimulation increased immensely, and some of the questions and challenges that were posed to me were very important in forming who I am today and how I perceive the world. Success and understanding took a lot more effort and were, therefore, more gratifying. But at the same time, I knew that most of the school was basically being babysat and fed test prep for state education exams so the school can maintain its funding.

But at the same time, what can you do if a student simply needs extra resources and time to grasp the same concepts as another student? What can you, as the educator, really do if some students have parents that have time or resources for tutoring and some need to work part-time outside of school? What can you do to help a student that may be depressed or otherwise unmotivated to perform in school? Do you want to invest your time and effort into helping your best student really excel, or helping your struggling students better understand the material offered to them?

But it is natural for these teachers to want to put extra resources into helping their best students succeed. Being there to give advice on college applications, extracurriculars, career paths etc. And, when you enter into an accelerated education path, you will typically be around kids who have parents that are better off and can get good advice by osmosis.

Was it predicated on others receiving worse education? My personal experience comes from receiving a lot of extra attention and encouragement from my teacher throughout my life which has led me to almost never doubt my intelligence in any situation (but I quite often doubt my knowledge or understanding). That comes off as pretty douchey, and it is, but hey what can I say. And I know many, many people can't say the same simply by having less natural talent at the particular set of skills schools ask of you (which may or may not be representative of intelligence). I once had one of my teachers boldly tell me many students simply could not perform the way I do academically, an idea I was very averse to back in high school (and I was arguing with her about it).

My success in school was in no small part thanks to the support and attention I got from my teachers, which in turn helped me develop my skills to achieve my goals to this day. But what does my performance in school really say about me as an individual? I'm not really sure to this day.

What I gather from this experience is that this whole issue revolved around utilitarian value calculations. So it's hard to really ground the debate in objectivity, and Joe can't show how this can possibly go beyond who values placing resources where.

joe40001 posted...

Adam Savage, Quinton Tarantino, Penn and Teller, John McWhorter, Dave Filoni, Vince Gilligan, almost all career musicians, I mean I can list names of experts all day but I doubt you'll concede anything.

I think you people skimmed over how weird and ridiculous it is that this is the list he came up with. Regardless of the evasion, this shit is gold.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


My answer was yes and I named several.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Because it is not and has never been a career path that interests me, nor do I believe "being smarter" is necessarily rewarded in education policy, as it is quite evident, (regardless of your political affiliation) that lucrative education policy firms and consultants do not necessarily generate the most effective policies.

Your question was unequivocally answered, any further attempts to pretend otherwise will be transparent to everyone.

You still continue to dodge my question. So I will restate it for you:

"Do you believe a person being in a position of authority in a field means they are necessarily knowledgeable in that field?"

Jabodie posted...

I'll warn you right now that I wrote a bunch of shit that doesn't have any real point. It's just me reflecting on my grade school education:

In some ways. During my first two years of high school, I had a mix of advanced and "regular" level classes and the difference in rigor and level of care was pretty large (one reason is that I was two years "ahead" in math/language, but placed into the regular curriculum). But I also had an issue of being extremely bored in school until I went into the full IB curriculum in my junior and senior years, so I understand the feeling of listlessness as you easily perform well in classes that seem to ask very little of you.

When I did shift into the IB curriculum, the rigor and level of stimulation increased immensely, and some of the questions and challenges that were posed to me were very important in forming who I am today and how I perceive the world. Success and understanding took a lot more effort and were, therefore, more gratifying. But at the same time, I knew that most of the school was basically being babysat and fed test prep for state education exams so the school can maintain its funding.

But at the same time, what can you do if a student simply needs extra resources and time to grasp the same concepts as another student? What can you, as the educator, really do if some students have parents that have time or resources for tutoring and some need to work part-time outside of school? What can you do to help a student that may be depressed or otherwise unmotivated to perform in school? Do you want to invest your time and effort into helping your best student really excel, or helping your struggling students better understand the material offered to them?

But it is natural for these teachers to want to put extra resources into helping their best students succeed. Being there to give advice on college applications, extracurriculars, career paths etc. And, when you enter into an accelerated education path, you will typically be around kids who have parents that are better off and can get good advice by osmosis.

Was it predicated on others receiving worse education? My personal experience comes from receiving a lot of extra attention and encouragement from my teacher throughout my life which has led me to almost never doubt my intelligence in any situation (but I quite often doubt my knowledge or understanding). That comes off as pretty douchey, and it is, but hey what can I say. And I know many, many people can't say the same simply by having less natural talent at the particular set of skills schools ask of you (which may or may not be representative of intelligence). I once had one of my teachers boldly tell me many students simply could not perform the way I do academically, an idea I was very averse to back in high school (and I was arguing with her about it).

My success in school was in no small part thanks to the support and attention I got from my teachers, which in turn helped me develop my skills to achieve my goals to this day. But what does my performance in school really say about me as an individual? I'm not really sure to this day.

This is a good, informative, and useful response IMO.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

What I gather from this experience is that this whole issue revolved around utilitarian value calculations. So it's hard to really ground the debate in objectivity, and Joe can't show how this can possibly go beyond who values placing resources where.

Hopefully we can all agree schools need and deserve more resources, but I would also frame it as a discussion of the merits of advanced courses. Because I feel some people do argue that the existence of advanced courses and advanced tracks necessarily harms those not in such courses. And I fundamentally disagree with that premise.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


@Everybody, is this true? Is everyone in agreement that I have completely failed to answer shockthemonkey's question?