Current Events > When do you think Dragon Ball jumped the shark as far as Goku's transformations?

(+) Yeah! (+)

MICHALECOLE posted...

Goku gave cell a senzu bean? I do not remember that

thats so stupid

Unsatisfied with being stupid enough to risk planet earth alone, he really ups the ante in DBS.

Tyranthraxus posted...

SSJ had no foreshadowing. It was just krillin die I'm so mad my hair change color.

Gohan on the other hand was quick to master base SSJ, and then almost broke through SSJ2 in the time chamber. Then rather than go for the easy win by sending in Vegeta, Goku gives Cell a sensu bean and sends in Gohan knowing that he's already much stronger than Cell even though Gohan doesn't know.

Did you miss everything between Goku arriving on Namek and going SSJ?

MICHALECOLE posted...

Goku gave cell a senzu bean? I do not remember that

thats so stupid

Yeah, it happened

And yeah, it was incredibly stupid Goku was all "fair play" and his friends were all like "dude, he's going to fucking murder us all, DON'T HELP HIM"

Definitely the highlight of his stupidity in DBZ

MICHALECOLE posted...

Goku gave cell a senzu bean? I do not remember that

thats so stupid

And he does the exact same thing much later in the Super manga.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Unsatisfied with being stupid enough to risk planet earth alone, he really ups the ante in DBS.

Yeah the little I have seen of DBS has been mostly Goku trying to destroy the universe because he wants to fight people

Irony posted...

I don't recall any foreshadowing of it. SSJ was the only one with any kind of foreshadowing or build-up

The foreshadowing for SS2 was from the moment Goku mentioned reaching a level beyond Super Saiyan.

The script just got flipped, and instead of Goku being the one to reveal the powerup, it was Gohan. That meant Gohan was finally able to round out his character arc after however many sagas and finally show off that mixed blood superpower they had been alluding to.

Tyranthraxus posted...

SSJ had no foreshadowing. It was just krillin die I'm so mad my hair change color.

The foreshadowing was Vegeta screaming about being a Super Saiyan over and over again for the entirety of his time on Namek, and him dying with the realization that he never reached that form before Freeza put him down.. Plus Freeza wiping out the entirety of their race on the mere supposition that a Super Saiyan could exist, Goku becoming the culmination of the legend to defeat Freeza was one of the manga's rare instances of actually burying the lede for a powerup.

I feel like people are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, lol. The manga had issues but these are very clearly two instances where they lampshaded the power ups. There's no holy water or Gotenks suddenly whipping out SS3 with SS1 or 2.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Gohan on the other hand was quick to master base SSJ, and then almost broke through SSJ2 in the time chamber.

Him turning SS2 in the Time Chamber was anime filler shown in a flashback after he had already transformed against Cell. There wasn't any buildup to SS2; after Goku decided that the buff forms were useless, he and Gohan decided to only focus on mastering the regular SS1. From that point on, all talk about reaching a new form was over; it's only right before Gohan turns SS2 that Goku suddenly talks about Gohan having to get angry to beat Cell, but that didn't suggest he was going to reach a new form, either.

Scotty_Rogers posted...

There wasn't any buildup to SS2

Except for all the glimpses of Gohan's extreme power spikes in every previous arc. We all knew he was going to pop off some day.

XImperialDragon posted...

The foreshadowing for SS2 was from the moment Goku mentioned reaching a level beyond Super Saiyan.

And then it stopped as soon as Goku decided that regular Super Saiyan was best.

XImperialDragon posted...

The foreshadowing was Vegeta screaming about being a Super Saiyan over and over again for the entirety of his time on Namek

No, it wasn't the entirety of the arc; Vegeta only started talking about midway into the arc after Freeza alluded to it earlier, and even then, it's cryptic; nothing suggested Super Saiyan was a transformation instead of just a really strong Saiyan in general. Everything about it turning Goku's hair blonde, giving a 50-fold power boost, conveniently healing him of his injuries and being triggered by Kucklin's death was random.

XImperialDragon posted...

I feel like people are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, lol.

No one is being contrarian. You don't know what buildup is lol

Ultra-Instinct was the only hype transformation I'd seen since SSJ2, and that was only because SSJ2 was Gohan surpassing his father. UI felt like actual progress because Goku was using a different method to tap a new power and the buildup to it made it worthwhile.

Tyranthraxus posted...

SSJ had no foreshadowing. It was just krillin die I'm so mad my hair change color.

Gohan on the other hand was quick to master base SSJ, and then almost broke through SSJ2 in the time chamber. Then rather than go for the easy win by sending in Vegeta, Goku gives Cell a sensu bean and sends in Gohan knowing that he's already much stronger than Cell even though Gohan doesn't know.

Vegeta spent most of the Namek Saga foreshadowing Super Saiyan and initially thought Goku was Super Saiyan when he fought the Ginyu Force, then he thought he was Super Saiyan going into his fight with 4th form Freeza (and turned out to be horribly wrong)

Guru also said he didn't think a Saiyan would beat the Nameless Namek (not knowing he split into Kami and Piccolo), so he theorized it might have been a Super Saiyan that beat him

I still hope that SSJ4 becomes canon one daySomething about a Saiyans strongest form being tapping into their primal instincts is fitting. None of that god ki bullshit.

Narratively speaking, nothing after SSJ1 adds anything to the story. The Dragonball formula is just

>enemy too strong
>lose
>train until enemy not too strong
>win

SSJ1 was a cute bit of mythology. Everything after that was just rehashing the formula and didnt need to exist.

Its been ages since I watched but I *think* SSJ3 had some caveat like, Goku could only use it because he was dead at the time and the energy wouldve been too much for a mortal body, but I dont think that actually went anywhere.

Kim_Seong-a posted...

Narratively speaking, nothing after

Base form adds to the story

Scotty_Rogers posted...

Base form adds to the story

I mean even if you were so cynical as to dismiss SSJ1, big monke was crucial up until they beat Vegeta. >_>

Kim_Seong-a posted...

I mean even if you were so cynical as to dismiss SSJ1, big monke was crucial up until they beat Vegeta. >_>

It never added to anything, no.

Scotty_Rogers posted...

Him turning SS2 in the Time Chamber was anime filler shown in a flashback after he had already transformed against Cell. There wasn't any buildup to SS2; after Goku decided that the buff forms were useless, he and Gohan decided to only focus on mastering the regular SS1. From that point on, all talk about reaching a new form was over; it's only right before Gohan turns SS2 that Goku suddenly talks about Gohan having to get angry to beat Cell, but that didn't suggest he was going to reach a new form, either.

The entire theme behind the power struggle in the Android/Cell saga was to find a power beyond the regular SSJ. The term Super Saiyan 2 wasnt even coined until the Buu saga. Gohans transformation against Cell was him figuring out how to significantly boost both his power and speed at magnitude levels beyond SSJ. In reality, Super Saiyan 2 isnt even a transformation; its the full mastery of the Super Saiyan form.

Therefore, this theme was vastly explored upon during the entirety of the Cell saga, and ultimately Goku, Vegeta and Trunks could not figure out how to do it. They talk of reaching a new form never left, 1) because that was never the goal, and 2) because Goku knew that if anyone could figure it out, it would be Gohan due to his hidden potential.

SSJ2 was coined as an official term later on mainly to push merchandise, and to give a tiering system to make SSJ3 stand out as king of Super Saiyan transformation (which was also done to push merchandise).

AdrianBeterson posted...

The entire theme behind the power struggle in the Android/Cell saga was to find a power beyond the regular SSJ.

@AdrianBeterson LOL, and that all stopped once Goku said the buff forms were useless. Learn to read.

AdrianBeterson posted...

Gohans transformation against Cell was him figuring out how to significantly boost both his power and speed at magnitude levels beyond SSJ

It visibly is not literally the same thing as the original form, hence his different hairstyle and electricity.

Goku and Gohan both agreed to just use the regular SS1; they explicitly say this. This new SS form of Gohan's was an asspull.

AdrianBeterson posted...

In reality, Super Saiyan 2 isnt even a transformation; its the full mastery of the Super Saiyan form.

It was always a form of SS beyond the original. Trash your head canon fam

AdrianBeterson posted...

Before the Buu saga and the push for new merchandise, there was no such thing as Super Saiyan 2

Yes, there was. Super Saiyan 2 refers to the next level or stage beyond the original Super Saiyan. That's what the first buff form was.

the buff forms were Super Saiyan grade 3, the post hyperbolic time chamber forms were Super Saiyan grade 4

Just what the hell do you think grades refer to? /dankai translates to grade, level, tier, stage, etc. If you go up a grade, then you go up a level or stage. Grade 2 is SS2 and Grade 3 is SS3. The claim that the buff forms are not their own forms but the better known SS2 and SS3 are is stupid, because as per Toriyama, they're all just variations of Super Saiyan.

As for "Grade 4", that was always just considered to be the regular SS form, only without any strain. It was never a form beyond the original.

Also, post time chamber Goku/Gohan werent just regular SSJ.

Yes, they were, as per the manga.

After ssj1 it was annoying.

wish they did the oozaru more often

Scotty_Rogers posted...

AdrianBeterson posted...

Yes, there was. Super Saiyan 2 refers to the next level or stage beyond the original Super Saiyan. That's what the first buff form was.

Just what the hell do you think grades refer to? /dankai translates to grade, level, tier, stage, etc. If you go up a grade, then you go up a level or stage. Grade 2 is SS2 and Grade 3 is SS3. The claim that the buff forms are not their own forms but the better known SS2 and SS3 are is stupid, because as per Toriyama, they're all just variations of Super Saiyan.

As for "Grade 4", that was always just considered to be the regular SS form, only without any strain. It was never a form beyond the original.

Yes, they were, as per the manga.

The scan I linked didnt post because Im under poor connectivity. But I can tell you dont know anything about Dragonball canon, so its pointless to argue with your ignorance. Ive made my point and Im gonna leave it to this. Look up the Super Saiyan grade levels if you want to learn up, but I doubt you will so w/e.

AdrianBeterson posted...

Look up the Super Saiyan grade levels

This is a beyond redundant statement, because grade = level lmao hold the fucking L and read a dictionary

Super Saiyan Susanoo

@AdrianBeterson Everything you said is a crock of bullshit. Hold the L.

There was definitely buildup to SSJ. I suppose there was pseudo-buildup to SSJ2 but it was moreso buildup to Gohan finally tapping into his hidden power in a pivotal moment and surpassing his father.

Anyway I hope SSJ5's transformation is just them losing all their hair because they realize having hair inhibits their speed in battle. Nothing makes more logical sense. Gimme bald sayains.

stoltenberg11 posted...

There was definitely buildup to SSJ.

None.

Can't wait until humans can transform too.

stoltenberg11 posted...

Anyway I hope SSJ5's transformation is just them losing all their hair because they realize having hair inhibits their speed in battle. Nothing makes more logical sense. Gimme bald sayains.

Every day we come closer to Gohan (Calvo) becoming canon.

DBZ should've ended after Frieza. Didn't need anything beyond SSJ1

After the Freeza Saga.

It became way too common, nonsensical, and transformation for the sake of transformations.

stoltenberg11 posted...

Anyway I hope SSJ5's transformation is just them losing all their hair because they realize having hair inhibits their speed in battle. Nothing makes more logical sense. Gimme bald sayains.

It all goes back to Nappa.
keikoku posted...

Can't wait until humans can transform too.

Lmao, someone throw them a bone please!

stoltenberg11 posted...

There was definitely buildup to SSJ. I suppose there was pseudo-buildup to SSJ2 but it was moreso buildup to Gohan finally tapping into his hidden power in a pivotal moment and surpassing his father.

Anyway I hope SSJ5's transformation is just them losing all their hair because they realize having hair inhibits their speed in battle. Nothing makes more logical sense. Gimme bald sayains.

if they do this Nappa must return from the grave reveal he faked his death and hes been training..watching..waiting