Current Events > Parents of trans 5-year-old post heartwarming story of child's transition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Man, look at all the brave brand new alts in here spewing their transphobia.

So brave.

So so brave. Bigly brave, even.

CyricZ posted...

What's cringe about trying to understand how children think? There's a whole field of psychology for it.

No not trying to understand children, trying to THINK like children

MushroomMuncher posted...

No not trying to understand children, trying to THINK like children

Uh okay, but who's doing that?

Are you telling me that Gwynevere saying that it's pretty well understood how children go through transition is "trying to think like a child"?

MushroomMuncher posted...

No not trying to understand children, trying to THINK like children

Literally no one said anything about "trying to think like children" but you.

CyricZ posted...

It's always a bother how some can be so accepting of trans people until they realize trans people can be young, too.

Then it's "oh noooo you have no idea what you are, you're just a stupid kid".

Have any of you even asked our local trans folk at what age they knew?

Wait why would we do that

CyricZ posted...

Uh okay, but who's doing that?

Are you telling me that Gwynevere saying that it's pretty well understood how children go through transition is "trying to think like a child"?

Well that would involve trying to put your mindset of that of a child to determine that wouldn't it

There are plenty of studies of trying to understand children that don't involve trying to think like one too
TheOtherMike posted...

Literally no one said anything about "trying to think like children" but you.

You did you just didn't know it

MushroomMuncher posted...

materialism is cringe

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/7/0/AAVdKdAACuja.jpg

Random Insanity.

They should have sent a poet.

Ahh one of these bait topics with a reply attempting to continue it on.

Sad.

Im still so confused by all this. I wish I was more progressive on this issue but I genuinely just can never understand it. Im reading this book posted before and thinking well maybe a book for five year olds can explain this to me.

It says when everyone was born they thought the kid was a boy but then she found out she was actually a girl. I just can't understand it. To me, Boy and Girl are meaningless words...they mean nothing at all about what type of person you are. A boy can be masculine or feminine. A girl can be masculine or feminine. To me, a boy has male parts, and a girl has female parts. If you have male parts, what makes you a girl? Is it liking dresses? Dolls? So boys aren't allowed to like dresses or dolls?

Hadn't we spent years saying boys can like pink things, and dresses, and dolls, if they want to? Does that mean we were wrong to say gender stereotypes are wrong, and in fact we should be enforcing gender stereotypes and just saying if you don't fit the mold you're trans? I just don't understand it at all, genuinely.

I don't get what boy and girl mean to everybody that I'm not seeing.

CyricZ posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikfUujgFdYA

I just...I consider myself more to the left on social issues than right. But this...I just don't understand. It's nonsense to me. The book says

"There are so many different ways to be a boy or girl - too many to fit in a book!
But not everyone feels like either a boy or a girl
Non-Binary is a helpful word that can describe a kid who doesn't feel exactly like a boy or a girl."

"When Alex was born, everyone thought Alex was a girl, but Alex is both boy and girl"
"JJ is neither a boy nor a girl. Ever since JJ was little, they never felt exactly like a boy or a girl - they just felt like themself. "

What? There are so many ways to be boy or girl, we can't explain what it means to be a boy or a girl, but this person is both of them, and this person is none of them, and some people can switch by day and.....It's just very confusing. What in the world is the point of gender identity? It just sounds like we're making extremely confusing labels to place on everybody.

How is all of this discussion possible when neither 'boy' nor 'girl' is a term with meaning??

Look out he's gonna blow.

Like...I know people joke about saying a kid feels like a dog, but at least a dog is a thing that has meaning, how are boy and girl not equally made up? They are completely socially invented, there is no actual definition....so what makes saying Im a dog any different than saying Im "both a boy and a girl"? I feel like most people would understand the first one better than the second lol, and either way its just "thing the kid has decided he is going to call himself today". I mean that's basically the only thing I can understand if it cant even be described what a boy or girl is and how one can be both and neither

fire_bolt posted...

Glad to see the transphobes continuing to get owned left and right because we finally have enough actual scientific data to denounce their tired, repetitive bullshit and they still won't accept the reality that gender isn't a choice lol. Makes it so much easier to discredit and ignore them

I didn't think it was a choice BEFORE, but in 2021 it seems to be. Is it not a choice to say "I am both a boy and girl" or "I am neither a boy nor girl" or "I change boy and girl by day" ? I mean....there is no scientific definition of any of these things. Is that not the whole point? You are choosing an identity that you feel best describes you? I mean its almost like its becoming an extension of picking your own name or something, a term that you feel best describes your inner self, but since none of these terms are scientific terms, and in fact none actually have definitions, it is still sort of a choice.

HHH is the game posted...

They are completely socially invented, there is no actual definition

Lots of things are socially invented and there are definitions. We're the ones who gave them meaning.

I mean that's basically the only thing I can understand if it cant even be described what a boy or girl is and how one can be both and neither

Seriously don't mess yourself over it.

CyricZ posted...

Look out he's gonna blow.

I swear I was joking but holy cow.

Wow, it took like, 11 minutes for you to agree with the dog comparison

amazing

greyfox747 posted...

Wow, it took like, 11 minutes for you to agree with the dog comparison

amazing

My real question is this. What makes it all that different when there is no actual definition or understanding about what any of these things mean besides somebody's personal feelings?

CyricZ posted...

Lots of things are socially invented and there are definitions. We're the ones who gave them meaning.

Of course, but the difference is those are widely accepted definitions. For example "trust". That's not a real thing, its a socially invented concept. But we have a shared understanding of what it means.

That isn't true for the gender identities. Tellingly, the book can't even explain them besides saying two different words with no explanation about what being a boy or being a girl means, where I can explain to you what 'trust' means.

Correct me if Im wrong, but there aren't any other comparable examples to this

@HHH_is_the_game

Question: Do you understand the distinction between sex and gender?

HHH is the game posted...

My real question is this. What makes it all that different when there is no actual definition or understanding about what any of these things mean besides somebody's personal feelings?

Hey. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others don't.

I don't know what it's like to be black. I'm not gonna sit there and disparage them for their perspective on things just because I don't get the specifics. But I can at least understand the basic gist based off first hand experiences.

You were born and raised cis in a society that actively disparages trans people. It's very much a socially ingrained issue. So you'll have to probably unlearn a bunch of the stuff that's false that you've picked up before you can start to at least get the general gist.

wiiking96 posted...

@HHH_is_the_game

Question: Do you understand the distinction between sex and gender?

No. To me they were basically different words for the same thing. A boy was a male, a girl was a female. I don't understand them as different concepts, or understand why they should be separated.

I guess my ideal world would be that we remove gender roles and just let them = sex so we can all do whatever we want, as boy or girl, with no expectations. The current social movements seem to be going the complete opposite now

HHH is the game posted...

Correct me if Im wrong, but there aren't any other comparable examples to this

How about race.

How about religion.

How about culture.

All things given meaning socially.

If you want to really have a freak out, try to define what "a black person" is.

gunplagirl posted...

Hey. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others don't.

So could you explain though.

You are a boy if:
XYZ

You are a girl if:
XYZ

How would you describe it? like what does a boy mean , and what does a girl mean, so if I was choosing my gender off the list, what qualities would I be looking for to say which I was, if sex has nothing to do with it?

HHH is the game posted...

I guess my ideal world would be that we remove gender roles

Unfortunately you can't. History, culture, and society are all things that exist, and you having an aneurysm over these soft concepts isn't going to suddenly make things simple.

HHH is the game posted...

So could you explain though.

You are a boy if:
XYZ

You are a girl if:
XYZ

How would you describe it? like what does a boy mean , and what does a girl mean, so if I was choosing my gender off the list, what qualities would I be looking for to say which I was, if sex has nothing to do with it?

Concepts like it are fluid. You, personally, are trying to force in these rigid restrictions where they don't naturally exist.

CyricZ posted...

How about race.

How about religion.

How about culture.

All things given meaning socially.

If you want to really have a freak out, try to define what "a black person" is.

isn't it just....a person with dark-colored skin, or somebody descended from people with dark-colored skin?

I guess you could look white and be considered black. In that case it would be by being descended from areas that traditionally have dark-colored skin. I don't consider that hard to define....

HHH is the game posted...

isn't it just....a person with dark-colored skin, or somebody descended from people with dark-colored skin?

How dark? What shade? Where on the color value chart? Does place of origin on a map have anything to do with it?

gunplagirl posted...

Concepts like it are fluid. You, personally, are trying to force in these rigid restrictions where they don't naturally exist.

But my point is not once has anybody described what a boy or girl means lol. How are you supposed to choose your gender identity when nobody can describe them? That is not true at all about race or religion.

You're Jewish if you follow the jewish faith, believe in the jewish god, follow the jewish traditions ....its pretty concrete. I don't see how that's similar

Its crazy how there arent literal volumes of scientific and philosophical literature written about gender, identity, sexuality, and the meaning of social constructs; and that there arent numerous studies done about gender, numerous texts written by queer people about gender expression and what gender means to them; and just a general assload of information available online about these subjects, that way we didnt have to have arguments about the very simple explanations offered in a book for five year olds.

Alas.

CyricZ posted...

How dark? What shade? Where on the color value chart? Does place of origin on a map have anything to do with it?

Yeah, I suppose it does have something to do with it, if you are from the same 'race' of people who are darker-skinned that all came from the same area. I can't describe exactly what shade, if somebody was right in the middle it might be hard to tell but in general you can easily see the difference between a darker-skinned and lighter-skinned person, it is easily physically observable, and easy to define it as that person is black because they have dark skin, and that person is white becasue they have light skin.

HHH is the game posted...

You're Jewish if you follow the jewish faith, believe in the jewish god, follow the jewish traditions

Which denomination?

MrToothHasYou posted...

Its crazy how there arent literal volumes of scientific and philosophical literature written about gender, identity, sexuality, and the meaning of social constructs; and that there arent numerous studies done about gender, numerous texts written by queer people about gender expression and what gender means to them; and just a general assload of information available online about these subjects, that way we didnt have to have arguments about the very simple explanations offered in a book for five year olds.

Alas.

Ok but can somebody in this topic, now, describe it, if its so simple? Not one person has tried

HHH is the game posted...

general you can easily see the difference between a darker-skinned and lighter-skinned person, it is easily physically observable, and easy to define it as that person is black because they have dark skin, and that person is white becasue they have light skin.

But you're speaking comparatively. Are there absolutes in such a discussion?

HHH is the game posted...

No. To me they were basically different words for the same thing. A boy was a male, a girl was a female. I don't understand them as different concepts, or understand why they should be separated.

I guess my ideal world would be that we remove gender roles and just let them = sex so we can all do whatever we want, as boy or girl, with no expectations. The current social movements seem to be going the complete opposite now

Sex refers to the physical characteristics of a person's body related to its reproductive functions. Having a womb or producing sperm are sexual characteristics.

Gender refers to certain social behaviors , expectations, and roles associated with sexual characteristics. Women wearing dresses at weddings while men wear suits is an expression of gender.

Does this make sense?

HHH is the game posted...

But my point is not once has anybody described what a boy or girl means lol. How are you supposed to choose your gender identity when nobody can describe them? That is not true at all about race or religion.

You're Jewish if you follow the jewish faith, believe in the jewish god, follow the jewish traditions ....its pretty concrete. I don't see how that's similar

I'm not a woman because I like cute cuddly things. I like cute cuddly things in part because I'm a woman.

You're mixing up what should be attributed to what.

CyricZ posted...

Which denomination?

I dont know enough about the Jewish faith to answer this question (despite being Jewish), but I feel pretty confident there is a concrete answer to this question. The denominations have meanings. For example reform Jews tend to be more casual about traditions. if you don't want to keep kosher, and go to temple all the time, and wear a Yamulka, but you believe in the Jewish god and a more casual expression of your faith, reform Jew could be a good denomination for you.

CyricZ posted...

But you're speaking comparatively. Are there absolutes in such a discussion?

I mean, yes, Id say so, but I don't know the color codes to give you the actual range lol. If you see a person who is black you can very often instantly see it because you know that color is in that category. I'd say its fuzzy in the middle, sure, but very often its pretty concrete.

gunplagirl posted...

I'm not a woman because I like cute cuddly things. I like cute cuddly things in part because I'm a woman.

And see this is where its very different from religion. You are Jewish because you believe in the Jewish god. You dont believe in the Jewish god because you're Jewish. The cause and effect allegedly for gender is different from all of these other things. Its the only one that seems to stem from nothing....and that's what leads to the confusion here and why it can't be explained, apparently

HHH is the game posted...

I dont know enough about the Jewish faith to answer this question (despite being Jewish), but I feel pretty confident there is a concrete answer to this question. The denominations have meanings. For example reform Jews tend to be more casual about traditions. if you don't want to keep kosher, and go to temple all the time, and wear a Yamulka, but you believe in the Jewish god and a more casual expression of your faith, reform Jew could be a good denomination for you

What if someone were to tell you that you weren't Jewish because you didn't adhere in a way they accepted?

wiiking96 posted...

Sex refers to the physical characteristics of a person's body related to its reproductive functions. Having a womb or producing sperm are sexual characteristics.

Gender refers to certain social behaviors , expectations, and roles associated with sexual characteristics. Women wearing dresses at weddings while men wear suits is an expression of gender.

Does this make sense?

I think it could make sense, but seems very at odds with the ideas of making the genders equal.

It seems like what this is saying is that boys are masculine, they do masculine things. Girls are feminine, they do feminine things.

Under this definition, boys shouldn't be wearing dresses. This means they are girls.

I don't understand how less flexible gender roles can at all mesh with the idea of nonbinary

HHH is the game posted...

Ok but can somebody in this topic, now, describe it, if its so simple? Not one person has tried

Where exactly did I say it was simple?

CyricZ posted...

What if someone were to tell you that you weren't Jewish because you didn't adhere in a way they accepted?

I would say they're wrong, and be able to give a definition. Yes the definitions can be fuzzy. But I can still give a reason. In my case I'm Jewish because I follow the Jewish traditions, and because my family was Jewish before me. You can say that's not what YOU consider Jewish to be but I have a concrete thing to point to and really for the most part we will be in the same ballpark. You might think belief in God is the most important thing, and I might think its following the traditions.

But if I ask 100 people, most of them will give answers along those lines.

HHH is the game posted...

I would say they're wrong, and be able to give a definition

This hypothetical person then gives their own definition. Which of you is right in this case?

CyricZ posted...

This hypothetical person then gives their own definition. Which of you is right in this case?

As I said, there will always be some fuzziness. That's true of all things. But ask 100 people and you will generally get a pretty good idea of what it means. I could write a book and explain what the Jewish people believe, what their traditions are, and if you follow these beliefs, if you want to follow these traditions you can say you are Jewish and these are the reasons why.

If somebody said they're Jewish because they just feel like a Jewish person and that's all they could give me I would definitely squint at them.

Man, people get REALLY bent out of shape when they can't put people into one of two boxes

HHH is the game posted...

If somebody said they're Jewish because they just feel like a Jewish person and that's all they could give me I would definitely squint at them

Why? Who are you to say what makes a person Jewish?

You can be Jewish without being Jewish, there's both an ethnic and religious box you could fit under. Or both. Or neither in which case you aren't unless you convert to the religious variety.

CyricZ posted...

Why? Who are you to say what makes a person Jewish?

Because that's not what it means to be Jewish lol. Do you think people wouldn't squint if somebody with white skin from Ireland said they are black because they feel like it? The fact is being Jewish has a definition, being black has a definition. They might not have exact concrete definitions exact to the very miniscule percent, but they are enough that given a description 99% of people could tell you yes or no on if the person is black or if the person is Jewish.

In the above example if I said is that man black? 99% of people would say no, he is not, because they are all operating under a shared understanding of what black means and that doesn't adhere to it. He can claim that it means something different to him, but that isn't socially accepted.

But I'm still not convinced that boy or girl, in the way they are being used now in progressive circles, even have a definition at all.