Current Events > DarkRoast, can we agree on this one important COVID vaccine thing?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Arcanine2009 posted...

FYI, he's a doctor dude. He knows what he is talking about. He has taken care of many people and watch them die and fill out their death certificates. I 100% believe him. I have in laws that are nurses and what the say is no exaggeration about the horrors of covid. You don't hear a lot of people who have survived from covid because they are embarrassed/keep it personal. There is one guy in this board who has effected his sex drive.

But anyway, this topic is very personal to him. So you should understand why he is very emotional about this. More than the regular cemen and wayy more than ignorant anti vaxxers.

none of that changes a single damn thing about what my post said and asked. it doesn't matter how emotional or personal - these things need to be considered logically, and when 80% of the population is already effectively immune (except in rare cases of breakthroughs)...it's irresponsible to foment division and hatred with garbage posts about people killing other people. particularly when it's done as an ideologue would do it, by ignoring the much more relevant fact about whether or not people have antibodies (which 80% now do)


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joe40001 posted...

The claim that the US "hit a brick wall at 50%" is misrepresentative. Here is the actual data:
FACT CHECK:

Why are you attempting to frame any sort of discussion as a gotcha phrase? Seriously. This is why people call you dishonest. She pretty clearly wasn't intending her point to be a focus of debate, nor does she want to engage with you because you isolate points and then FACT CHECK them instead of taking them as the generalized off-handed comment they were. You're hyper-focusing instead of listening to the general grievance being presented. That's exhausting. And it happens repeatedly. Do better.

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pure_temper posted...

No, you shut the fuck up. We are already at 80% of the population having antibodies one way or another. The ship has sailed. We are already well beyond the threshold that was discussed last year.

You're supposed to be smart. Get your head out of the sand and stop playing the part of the ideologue because you responded but did nothing to address what was actually said.

Pro tip, you're not as educated on this as you think you are.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

FWIW I appreciate you talking about it. I know it's probably embarrassing as fuck. Especially here.

@AldousIsDead

Less than you might think, or maybe I'm just weird.

I hope talking about it convinces a fence sitter or two about getting the damn shot. I know it's worked with 2 of my acquaintances in real life.

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BlinxTheSweeper posted...

Explain why the fatality rate in the US is still so much higher than countries who managed to get a high vaccination rate

there is no simple variable. it would be low resolution to think there is or for someone to offer a single variable as an explanation.

one contributing factor is that we have a fatter population in general, and we know that obesity is a comorbidity with covid

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html

• Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
• Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.

anyway, all of this can be analyzed until tomorrow morning, to see which countries had how many deaths per capita, how relative levels of poverty in some states vs other states can skew access to treatment of any kind, etc. that is all moving the goalposts and beyond the point of my original post though.


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The saddest part is, tc for all his grandstanding and talk about discussion has probably never convinced anyone on the internet or in real life to agree with his side due to his poor social skills and stubborn attitude.

All these "debate me" dudes are like this.

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I don't understand the point of this.

Get the vaccine, don't get the vaccine, whatever. If you really think someone is shitty or a bully or whatever, why do you get your rocks off engaging with them?

You can only have so many conversations about this.

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DarkRoast posted...

Pro tip, you're not as educated on this as you think you are.

but the data is on my side, as are the very simple-to-read links I provided you with. you are nowhere near as smart or as educated as you think, and it's rather telling that this is your response rather than to even acknowledge the links and the facts.

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Trumble posted...

So, uh, has Joe addressed post #27 yet?

I'm just eating my popcorn and watching the show. I knew TC would ignore me when this is literally my profession and what I do on a daily basis.

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pure_temper posted...

but the data is on my side, as are the very simple-to-read links I provided you with. you are nowhere near as smart or as educated as you think, and it's rather telling that this is your response rather than to even acknowledge the links and the facts.

I literally did my master's thesis in Epidemiology on vaccination and vector control.

So you can shut the f****** up.

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Shadow20201 posted...

Why are you attempting to frame any sort of discussion as a gotcha phrase? Seriously. This is why people call you dishonest. She pretty clearly wasn't intending her point to be a focus of debate, nor does she want to engage with you because you isolate points and then FACT CHECK them instead of taking them as the generalized off-handed comment they were. You're hyper-focusing instead of listening to the general grievance being presented. That's exhausting. And it happens repeatedly. Do better.

I'll admit it, including the term "fact check" was a bit passive aggressive, but I am losing patience with people like DarkRoast who consistently gets data wrong, yet speaks with this hostile authority about everything. "We've hit a brick wall at 50%" is a hell of a lot different than 79.5% of the adult population has had 1 dose and 68.9% have had two".

But I can live with a person who frequently gets their numbers wrong, what I can't abide about people like DarkRoast is that they literally believe:
"It's better to insult a vaccine skeptic and call them a piece of shit because it feels good, then to show empathy to them and successfully persuade them to get vaccinated"

I don't care how personal/emotional this is for you, anybody with that mindset doesn't truly care about public health.

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pure_temper posted...

No, you shut the fuck up. We are already at 80% of the population having antibodies one way or another. The ship has sailed. We are already well beyond the threshold that was discussed last year.

You're supposed to be smart. Get your head out of the sand and stop playing the part of the ideologue because you responded but did nothing to address what was actually said.

Here I'll address it. Numbers you can easily Google:

Fully vaccinated rate: 57.8% this assumes 2 shots of Moderna or Pfizer except now we are learning that efficacy goes down after a few months so realistically that number is lower unless you've gotten a booster but we'll roll with it for now.

Total cases: 45.4 million. Let's assume not even one of them was vaccinated. Bullshit but let's roll with it.

Population of the United States 330 million approximately.

57.8% of 330 million is 190.7 million add 45 million you get 235.7 million.

This is only 71% of the population. Not 80% and it includes ridiculous fucking concessions like maximum number of population of antibodies, zero repeat cases, zero breakthrough cases, and so on.

so where the fuck is your source getting 80% if I have to cheat in your favor as much as possible and still only get 71%

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pure_temper posted...

there is no simple variable. it would be low resolution to think there is or for someone to offer a single variable as an explanation.

one contributing factor is that we have a fatter population in general, and we know that obesity is a comorbidity with covid

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html

* Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
* Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.
anyway, all of this can be analyzed until tomorrow morning, to see which countries had how many deaths per capita, how relative levels of poverty in some states vs other states can skew access to treatment of any kind, etc. that is all moving the goalposts and beyond the point of my original post though.

Would you say that if someone hasn't caught COVID and hasn't been vaccinated should they go and get the vaccine asap?

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For fuck's fucking sake, Joe-fucking-numbers, fuckingly shut the fucking fuck the fuckful fuck up.

And? No one cares about your credentials here. Your credentials don't just magically constitute an actual response to the links.

If you're going to shitpost on gamefaqs anyway, stop waving around your degree and actually contend with the facts and information that are posted. It's not enough to just wave around your formal credentials as if that settles the matter.

the links again for your convenience:

100 million people (as of 2020, gonna be much higher now that we're almost at 2022) had covid already and consequently antibodies that render them effectively as immune as two shots of Pfizer:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/09/07/covid-19-infected-many-more-americans-in-2020-than-official-tallies-show/

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

80% and counting of the entire population has antibodies:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html

where is the error here?


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@pure_temper

Anti vaxxers are getting people killed dude. Everyone can spread the delta variant with the same viral load, but the window for spreading it is shorter for those that are vaccinated because they attack the virus and reduce the viral load pretty fast. So they can spread it to more people due to a larger window.

The reason why anti vaxxers are killing is because getting the vaccine dramatically reduced your chances of being hospitalized and being put in the ICU. 9/10 people being put in the hospital for covid are non-vaccinated. With Anti vaxxers, they have a much higher chance of dying, and if we keep having high infection rates, the fucking hospitals won't be able to keep up..

Not enough beds, equipment and personnel. And when there are too many people, not enough equipment and not enough staff (and the ones that are there are stressed AF), the chances of dying in the hospital dramatically increase, because not everyone can get the proper care needed. Imagine all the people who don't have covid and need surgery or treatment for something like cancer have to wait for fucking hours or days because some covid + patient (9/10 unvaccinated) took their bed and doctors and nurses are taking care of them instead. They did waiting for them. And it doesn't help all the people who have covid either. You can't get proper care with a staff and equipment shortage and your chances of dying in the hospital too.

All this being preventable if people mask up and get vaccinated.

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ShutTheF---Up posted...

For fuck's fucking sake, Joe-fucking-numbers, fuckingly shut the fucking fuck the fuckful fuck up.

You heard 'em.

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ShutTheF---Up posted...

For fuck's fucking sake, Joe-fucking-numbers, fuckingly shut the fucking fuck the fuckful fuck up.

I'm jealous you got that account name and agree wholeheartedly.

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BlinxTheSweeper posted...

Would you say that if someone hasn't caught COVID and hasn't been vaccinated should they go and get the vaccine asap?

if someone has not caught covid before, then yes, if their primary care physician recommends it and particularly if they have risk factors like obesity or other conditions which significantly increase the likelihood of severe covid

people who had covid technically get even better immunity with one shot of any of the vaccines, but the antibodies from past infection are already sufficiently good that they're better than two shots of Pfizer and those are shown to prevent the vast majority of cases/hospitalizations besides with rare breakthrough cases.

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pure_temper posted...

where is the error here?

It is mathematically impossible to arrive at 80% antibodies even if you combine every single case + every administered immunization. I'm not a fucking college professor giving partial credit and not going to bother pointing out where the error is. I've proven it's literally impossible to have an 80% immunization rate given our current statistics and with the strength of immunization going down after several months including natural antibodies, the real number of immunized is far far worse.

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kenio8187 posted...

Idk if anyone mentioned it yet. But pretty much any major side effect from the vaccine is far more likely to be gotten (and with greater severity) from Covid itself.

This is not true. I don't know a single person who's had a prick-in-the-arm sensation from covid. /s

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Arcanine2009 posted...

@pure_temper

Anti vaxxers are getting people killed dude. Everyone can spread the delta variant with the same viral load, but the window for spreading it is shorter for those that are vaccinated because they attack the virus and reduce the viral load pretty fast.

The reason why anti vaxxers are killing is because getting the vaccine dramatically reduced your chances of being hospitalized and being put in the ICU. 9/10 people being put in the hospital for covid are non-vaccinated. With Anti vaxxers, they have a much higher chance of dying, and if we keep having high infection rates, the fucking hospitals won't be able to keep up..

Not enough beds, equipment and personnel. And when there are too many people, not enough equipment and not enough staff (and the ones that are there are stressed AF), the chances of dying in the hospital dramatically increase, because not everyone can get the proper care needed. Imagine all the people who don't have covid and need surgery or treatment for something like cancer have to wait for fucking hours or days because some covid + patient (9/10 unvaccinated) took their bed and doctors and nurses are taking care of them instead. They did waiting for them. And it doesn't help all the people who have covid either. You can't get proper care with a staff and equipment shortage and your chances of dying in the hospital too.

All this being preventable if people mask up and get vaccinated.

a significant portion of the country, and those people who do not have the vaccine, have antibodies from past infection. those antibodies make it virtually impossible except in rare breakthrough cases for them to get covid again. reinfection is rare.

it's more than 80% of the country that falls into the bucket. the vaccines are readily available to everyone. nobody is killing anybody, that is hysteria and emotionalism that divides society and would cause oppression and violence if it foments.

on the basis of the nature of these antibodies from past infection, and also because of what was said for the last year about getting to 70% or so....we've hit that target. the ship has sailed. to posture about "unvaxxed killing vaxxed" is so low resolution that it is blatant dishonesty or just sheer dumb thinking that nobody should even dignify with a response. but I'm trusting you're responding in good faith because you're a long-time user.

the majority of the unvaxxed in the USA by now would fall into the bucket of "people who have antibodies"

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kenio8187 posted...

Idk if anyone mentioned it yet. But pretty much any major side effect from the vaccine is far more likely to be gotten (and with greater severity) from Covid itself.

Yep. I think everybody agrees to this.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't aspirate when giving the vaccine to make it even more safe too.

I bet if aspiration were common practice, you'd hear the number of severe vaccine side effects go down to near 0. Which is why I'm so strongly for it.

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One account to troll them all

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kenio8187 posted...

You can get that sensation if you get covid and the symptoms are severe enough to require being pricked by something to draw blood or monitor your body.

...good point.

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pure_temper posted...

if someone has not caught covid before, then yes, if their primary care physician recommends it and particularly if they have risk factors like obesity or other conditions which significantly increase the likelihood of severe covid

people who had covid technically get even better immunity with one shot of any of the vaccines, but the antibodies from past infection are already sufficiently good that they're better than two shots of Pfizer and those are shown to prevent the vast majority of cases/hospitalizations besides with rare breakthrough cases.

I don't really get the point of bringing this up as a counter-argument against anti-vaxers killing people though. The deaths and new cases still have a large correlation. More people getting vaccinated would objectively save more lives.




If the ship sailed there wouldn't have been another major spike a mere month ago. How long until it bounces back up again?

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joe40001 posted...

I don't care how personal/emotional this is for you, anybody with that mindset doesn't truly care about public health.

It's really fucking clear you've never had to deal with multitudes of patients in denial as their sats are barely holding on, they're literally feeling like they're drowning, moaning about hoax this and vaccine that as I'm literally about to put an endotracheal tube in them. And dealing with families who watch them in the ICU for weeks and still die, and when you try and genuinely and empathetically lead them to vaccination they just ignore what they literally saw with their own eyes and refuse it.

This is something that goes beyond just throwing stats at someone or thinking being empathetic is the magic bullet in this pandemic. Can't you fucking see that every one of us in healthcare is absolutely exhausted from the needless death and despair on a daily fucking basis? It'll wear down even the most resilient of individuals. So don't get all snippy when you try and disingenuously pick fights online because it's very clear there is an underlying education and/or propaganda problem in this country that can't get solved overnight.

Meanwhile I'll go respond to my 3rd code blue of the night and put in another breathing tube. It's fucking exhausting to see such needless death and I can't scream out loud enough to the people who just simply haven't seen what we have seen. I'm vaccinated, I didn't have any bad adverse reaction to it. My entire fucking department got the vaccine. They didn't have any bad adverse reactions to it. We've been continuously exposed to covid in the hospital on a near daily basis since the entire pandemic has been going on. The reason I never caught covid despite putting in breathing tubes for a living is because I used my PPE diligently. So I'm sick and fucking tired of everyone whining about their masks. And when the vaccine came out, I continued to be safe because it fucking works. Period. The end.

So don't get all snippy when we're just over your bullshit. The chances of an IV administration with a 25 gauge needle in the deltoid is virtually zero. Every professional who does this for a living already knows about aspirating needles when it is appropriate/important. We've been doing this since fucking ever, this is not a new topic to people actually in the field, so it's annoying when these anti-vaxxers try and virtue signal that this is the reason they aren't getting the shot because of a non-issue.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

It is mathematically impossible to arrive at 80% antibodies even if you combine every single case + every administered immunization. I'm not a fucking college professor giving partial credit and not going to bother pointing out where the error is. I've proven it's literally impossible to have an 80% immunization rate given our current statistics and with the strength of immunization going down after several months including natural antibodies, the real number of immunized is far far worse.

dude I posted this link like 3 times already.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html

More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S.

more of these studies will emerge. these numbers are about 2 months old by now, btw. so in reality we may be looking at 85%+ of the country that is now effectively immune without distinction between vaccination or no vaccination.

that is literally what these links present. not my problem if someone dislikes it. if there's an actual problem with the #s, then by all means show it rather than just having DarkRoast telling us about her degree lol

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ShutTheF---Up posted...

For fuck's fucking sake, Joe-fucking-numbers, fuckingly shut the fucking fuck the fuckful fuck up.

@joe40001 ^

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BlinxTheSweeper posted...

I don't really get the point of bringing this up as a counter-argument against anti-vaxers killing people though. The deaths and new cases still have a large correlation. More people getting vaccinated would objectively save more lives.

because if the majority of people who don't have the vaccine have antibodies from past infection, that is as good as the vaccine or better. and since repeated infection is rare, they cannot be construed as killing someone. it's 80%+ of the country now.

i recommend no longer construing this in terms of vax vs unvax, or anti-vax vs pro-vax. it is an idiotic way to represent the problem based on what the #s say.

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pure_temper posted...

And? No one cares about your credentials here. Your credentials don't just magically constitute an actual response to the links.

If you're going to shitpost on gamefaqs anyway, stop waving around your degree and actually contend with the facts and information that are posted. It's not enough to just wave around your formal credentials as if that settles the matter.

the links again for your convenience:

100 million people (as of 2020, gonna be much higher now that we're almost at 2022) had covid already and consequently antibodies that render them effectively as immune as two shots of Pfizer:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/09/07/covid-19-infected-many-more-americans-in-2020-than-official-tallies-show/

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

80% and counting of the entire population has antibodies:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html

where is the error here?

"Where's the error here?"

The error is "you not reading the paper"

If I need to explain to you why donated blood is not a good representative sample of the general population, and why only 20% of it contained antibodies generated from an actual infection, please let me know.

Otherwise, a wise person would say "ok, there's more to this than I thought" and sit back down.

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ShutTheF---Up posted...

For fuck's fucking sake, Joe-fucking-numbers, fuckingly shut the fucking fuck the fuckful fuck up.

In addition to this, fuckingly fuck the fuckinating fucktacious fuckely-doo off.

pure_temper posted...

More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S.

I really don't know how to explain this other than I have mathematically proven this statement from the Miami herald is a lie. Maybe what they really meant was 80% of the 1.4 million blood donors had antibodies. That's not the same thing as 80% of the population, which, you can fucking look up the numbers yourself, do the same math I did, and come to the same conclusion.

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pure_temper posted...

a significant portion of the country, and those people who do not have the vaccine, have antibodies from past infection. those antibodies make it virtually impossible except in rare breakthrough cases for them to get covid again. reinfection is rare.

it's more than 80% of the country that falls into the bucket. the vaccines are readily available to everyone. nobody is killing anybody, that is hysteria and emotionalism that divides society and would cause oppression and violence if it foments.

on the basis of the nature of these antibodies from past infection, and also because of what was said for the last year about getting to 70% or so....we've hit that target. the ship has sailed. to posture about "unvaxxed killing vaxxed" is so low resolution that it is blatant dishonesty or just sheer dumb thinking that nobody should even dignify with a response. but I'm trusting you're responding in good faith because you're a long-time user.

the majority of the unvaxxed in the USA by now would fall into the bucket of "people who have antibodies"

I don't know where you get your news, but I hope it's not fox news dude.

9/10 covid patients that are being admitted to the hospital are non vaccinated. 9/10 people in the ICU with covid are non vaccinated.

So again, with high infection rates, the ICU capacity will drop and people can't be treated properly due to lack of equipment and personnel. Chances of death are much higher for everyone. And it's screwing over patients that don't have covid and are immunocompromised, whether they are vaccinated or not.

It's hard for me to feel sympathy for an anti vaxxer who says he regrets not getting the vaccine right before he dies. And I have zero sympathy for anti vaxxers who still believe that shit right before their death.

Tell me something, as a non vaccinated person's are you are least masking up and socially distant when necessary?

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F---Off posted...

In addition to this, fuckingly fuck the fuckinating fucktacious fuckely-doo off.

Seconded.

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pure_temper posted...

because if the majority of people who don't have the vaccine have antibodies from past infection, that is as good as the vaccine or better. and since repeated infection is rare, they cannot be construed as killing someone. it's 80%+ of the country now.

i recommend no longer construing this in terms of vax vs unvax, or anti-vax vs pro-vax. it is an idiotic way to represent the problem based on what the #s say.

And yet something like 36,000 people in the US died in October alone and is still counting. How many of those people were unvaccinated?

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Tyranthraxus posted...

I really don't know how to explain this other than I have mathematically proven this statement from the Miami herald is a lie. Maybe what they really meant was 80% of the 1.4 million blood donors had antibodies. That's not the same thing as 80% of the population, which, you can fucking look up the numbers yourself, do the same math I did, and come to the same conclusion.

If he had actually read the paper and not just the article from the Miami herald, he would have known.

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F---Off posted...

In addition to this, fuckingly fuck the fuckinating fucktacious fuckely-doo off.

I want all of your dreams to come true

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Can we get back to arguing about pitbulls or something else?

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CE_gonna_CE posted...

Can we get back to arguing about pitbulls or something else?

God, never thought I'd miss the damn pitbull topics, but here we are.

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AldousIsDead posted...

God, never thought I'd miss the damn pitbull topics, but here we are.

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AldousIsDead posted...

God, never thought I'd miss the damn pitbull topics, but here we are.

Pitbulls can catch COVID too

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joe40001 posted...

"It's better to show empathy to a vaccine skeptic and successfully persuade them to get vaccinated, then to insult them and call them a piece of s*** because it feels good"

I think this is weasel-y phrasing here. The real question is "Is it better to show empathy to a vaccine skeptic in the hopes of persuading them to get vaccinated or to insult them and call them a piece of **** because it feels good?"

and contextually there are lots of factors that impact what that answer is for a particular individual. If I don't think that my empathy/flattery has any chance of persuading the person, then doing things that make me feel good is far more optimal than protecting someone's fragile ego. Because what "empathy" means in this situation is often "You have to accept my baseless concerns as valid" and if you're *not* successfully persuading the person, it can be dangerous to start from the point of validating their beliefs because now you've just created someone who is no more likely to get vaccinated but now believes that their pro-vaccine friends think they have valid concerns.


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Tyranthraxus posted...

Pitbulls can catch COVID too

Do not give them ideas, man.

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Trumble posted...

Lol, ty

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DarkRoast posted...

"Where's the error here?"

The error is "you not reading the paper"

If I need to explain to you why donated blood is not a good representative sample of the general population, and why only 20% of it contained antibodies generated from an actual infection, please let me know.

Otherwise, a wise person would say "ok, there's more to this than I thought" and sit back down.

That's common verbiage since technically they cannot say that it's representative of the entire population, since that's a big bar to clear. But their findings section still clearly states that 83.3% of the population has antibodies from one source or another. and that was almost half a year ago. must be a bigger number by now.

what I take your second highlight to mean is that the numbers may not map exactly accurately to the entire population, but should still be sufficient confidence level to report on. may be as per this limitation they call out:

Sixth, the studywide estimates only represented the geographic areas covered by study regions, which covered an estimated 74% of the US population.

I suspect the statistics of the matter means the numbers they cited are reliable, but may be 80% instead of 83.3% if there were resources to include the entire massive geographic area of the USA. Or who knows, maybe that number would even increase to 90%. It goes both ways.

the point is that the majority of unvaccinated people already have or will soon have antibodies from past infection and those antibodies make your narrative hyperbolic nonsense. 83.3% of the population having antibodies - the percentage that got vaccinated = the percentage of unvaccinated who have antibodies.

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