Poll of the Day > Columbus Day or Indigenous Day?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Entity13 posted...

I feel like we should adopt what some of Europe did in the Middle Ages and have a festival every month that lasts for a few days. But, you know, without eliminating weekends or fair work shifts. <_<

Eh, isn't X-Mas and Easter those days? (albeit Religious)

His travel was Europe's discovery of it, considering that the Vikings didn't exactly transfer that knowledge and the native population didn't share it.

Eh, last time I check Vikings were from a place called...

pionear posted...

Eh, isn't X-Mas and Easter those days? (albeit Religious)

Yule is supposed to be that, but different traditions, religious or otherwise, change which or how many days, or how the festivities happen. Easter used to be about a week, and nowadays is three separate days (Palm Sunday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday) that, at least here in the US, aren't really observed in any meaningful capacity except for Easter Sunday; and that even differs by tradition or interest since all people think about with it are egg hunting and going to church. <_<

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I don't care enough to even pretend to give a shit tbh

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Why have a day to honor someone who did nothing but get lost along the way, claim to discover a place he wasnt even planning to reach and that was already occupied, and commit attrocities on those people he encountered? Fuck Columbus!

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Just celebrate Leif Erickson day that day instead. Move it from the 9th to the second Monday.

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Conner4REAL posted...

Just celebrate Leif Erickson day that day instead. Move it from the 9th to the second Monday.

https://youtu.be/irpw8A5WRyk

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GanonsSpirit posted...

Columbus was a piece of shit and anyone who defends him is a piece of shit.

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*Sigh*

One side is stuck defending a man who didn't even reach the Americas (He hit one of the Caribbean islands) and did some outright horrible things and is remembered only because Italian American's needed a hero so that there'd be less discrimination against them in America.

And the other side has no diplomacy, tact, or real understanding at all.

To the people defending Columbus. Even if what he did was 'normal' for the time should we really honor him? Columbus day wasn't even a thing until relatively recently, exists only as a political measure to try and stop discrimination, and to most people is only relevant because it's a day off. He wasn't even the first person to discover America (if you discount the natives I mean); Leafy boy was. Do you honestly think most people understand the conflict? Do you honestly think they care? They just want their day off in October. That it's because it's because of Columbus is almost trivial. Yet you're acting massively defensive and refusing to acknowledge that he DID do horrible things in favor of an idealized, untrue, version of him. His voyage didn't even happen 'to discover America', it was because a nation got it's trade route cut off and figured it was worth it to waste three ships maybe finding a route across what they believed was empty ocean. You're fighting a battle for the sake of fighting a battle. Not even a hill to die on; a conflict that exists only because you want to fight it.

To those attacking Columbus: Have you considered that he means a lot at least to some people? That people look upon his accomplishment and see it not only as important but as a cultural touchstone? And you want to rip that away from them and have a completely horrible and disrespectful attitude while doing so? Even if you won what would you have accomplished? The day would be exactly the same except for the name. People wouldn't care about indigenous people one bit more as they only attach the value of a day off from work to it. You're offering nothing more than an empty gesture while acting like complete ***holes to the few people whom actually care about the day. Do you seriously think you're going to get any sort of meaningful victory out of that? It's a fight that's not even pyrrhic; it flat out doesn't even need to happen. You'd get far better mileage if you tried to point out Leaf was the first one and, in general, not being such jerks to those defending him. To many people he's the person who pulled off a huge accomplishment and you're basically stripping that away from them for a reason they don't even understand.

Unbridled9 posted...

That people look upon his accomplishment and see it not only as important but as a cultural touchstone? And you want to rip that away from them and have a completely horrible and disrespectful attitude while doing so?

I think that their reverence for a mass murderer is a hell of a lot more disrespectful than any vitriol I could spew in response. I can't believe that indigenous people have to put up with this revisionist nonsense, these shitty excuses for fawning over a mass murderer every single year. But *we're* the ones being disrespectful?

Columbus should be treated with the same disdain that we feel for the people responsible for residential schools, a dozen times over.

Do you seriously think you're going to get any sort of meaningful victory out of that?

We're on gamefaqs. What exactly do you expect?

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Lief Erikson

Hinga dinga dorgen!

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Unbridled9 posted...

That people look upon his accomplishment

Failing to get where he was trying to go and then brutalizing the native population he found is an accomplishment?
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Or, for that matter, just reaching one of the islands off the coast of this continent, centuries after Vikings landed upon this great land mass, albeit in a swamp-ass region of what is now Canada.

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Unbridled9 posted...

To those attacking Columbus: Have you considered that he means a lot at least to some people? That people look upon his accomplishment and see it not only as important but as a cultural touchstone?

That they should wake up and realize how many lies have been and are being taught to the world. Stop believing in false narratives because they make you feel better. Be better and you will truly feel better.

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Columbus Day

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Galileo Day.

It's Indigenous Day every day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BafBxmSO8

Gaawa_chan posted...

I think that their reverence for a mass murderer is a hell of a lot more disrespectful than any vitriol I could spew in response. I can't believe that indigenous people have to put up with this revisionist nonsense, these shitty excuses for fawning over a mass murderer every single year. But *we're* the ones being disrespectful?

Columbus should be treated with the same disdain that we feel for the people responsible for residential schools, a dozen times over.

And that is why you fail.

SunWuKung420 posted...

That they should wake up and realize how many lies have been and are being taught to the world. Stop believing in false narratives because they make you feel better. Be better and you will truly feel better.

Also this.

Come back with the same point in a polite, respectful, tone that's not utterly insulting and demeaning. I'm not even disputing the point you're making, just that you're making it in the worst way possible to help your cause.

Zangulus posted...

Fuck anything remotely considered tactful when it's against people who defend a genocidal bastard. But ok.

*sigh* And again another example of why this argument even exists in the first place. Try this.

The fact is that the feat Columbus accomplished was done before by Lief and Columbus didn't even hit the continents, just the Caribbean. The only reason he got remembered what because of an attempt to break down racial prejudice towards Italian folk and the only reason the holiday persisted is because people enjoyed their one day off so much that it was made a national holiday. We're not saying that what he accomplished wasn't, at the least, daring and had a huge impact upon the entire world, just that this was not an entirely positive one especially for the natives who were geocided, pillaged, diseased, enslaved, and may other horrible things. We want the day to be changed to honor the many natives whose lives were lost as a result. If you want to honor Columbus privately for what he accomplished, feel free to do so. However, we feel that a holiday honoring a man who, intentionally or otherwise, caused such great misery for the indigenous people is in exceptionally poor taste and should be changed.

Zangulus posted...

Oh cool. Accidental genocide and rape. That makes sense.

And just so we're clear: I do not give a fuck about any justifications for anyone celebrating that piece of shit.

Do you think Columbus INTENDED to spread smallpox throughout the world? Do you think he went on his voyage thinking 'Oh my! I just hope we discover some natives so that, in the future, a bunch of Conquistadors take over this land.' Many things happened because of his voyage and I think it's pretty blatantly clear that Columbus had no intention of it happening or foreknowledge of it. Like it or not, not every single negative act that happened to the indigenous people was Columbus's plan, intent, or anything else.

You're making a monster to fight simply because you need a monster to justify your own negative attitude. Someone to target all your hate and vitriol towards so you don't have to confront your own terribleness. Now you're getting furious when you get confronted with the fact that many people do hold a reverence for him and see him as a hero or at least in a positive light. It drives you mad because they refuse to see things your way and, in a perverse way, you LIKE it because it means you can target people.

Do you even know what Columbus means to the people who protect him? Do you even listen to their arguments or what they have to say? You don't care. You just want another target to knock down to justify your terribleness.

Like I said earlier. Try being diplomatic and actually explaining yourself and treating the other side as reasonable human beings instead of the brainless monsters you treat them like.

Unbridled9 posted...

Do you think Columbus INTENDED to spread smallpox throughout the world? Do you think he went on his voyage thinking 'Oh my! I just hope we discover some natives so that, in the future, a bunch of Conquistadors take over this land.' Many things happened because of his voyage and I think it's pretty blatantly clear that Columbus had no intention of it happening or foreknowledge of it. Like it or not, not every single negative act that happened to the indigenous people was Columbus's plan, intent, or anything else.

What an absolutely shameless strawman, this feels like something I'd read in 2005.

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Blighboy posted...

What an absolutely shameless strawman, this feels like something I'd read in 2005.

How is it a strawman? The guy said that 'accidental genocide' wasn't a thing and I pointed out that Columbus didn't intend or know of much of the bad things that were happening. It's not like he reached the Caribbean and then wrote to Cortez 'there's an entire empire for you to knock down'. Or that he then wrote to the British and told them to colonize the north and kick out the natives there, or anything like that. I do not see any reason to believe Columbus was responsible for all the genocide and everything to the scale you seem to believe he was. If you can justify it in a calm, proper, manner then I'm all ears.

For the record, and I want to make this VERY clear. I'm on neither side here. Columbus did something that what momentous but also resulted in immense tragedy and suffering. I don't think we should have a holiday honoring him but I also don't feel like the claims made against him are accurate and that one of the two sides is absolutely terrible at communication and diplomacy.

How about column day? They gave done a lot to support us.

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I legitimately heard the argument yesterday that what Columbus did wasn't wrong because "the native americans didn't even have writing yet... barely counts as civilization"

...yeah... there's some gross people on reddit quarantined subs

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Unbridled9 posted...

For the record, and I want to make this VERY clear. I'm on neither side here.

Left-leaning centrist argument
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Everyone talking about Lief and Columbus and nobody mentioning the fact that the Polynesians had been crossing the (much larger) Pacific to reach South America for over a thousand years.

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captpackrat posted...

Everyone talking about Lief and Columbus and nobody mentioning the fact that the Polynesians had been crossing the (much larger) Pacific to reach South America for over a thousand years.

south america =/= north america
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Lokarin posted...

I legitimately heard the argument yesterday that what Columbus did wasn't wrong because "the native americans didn't even have writing yet... barely counts as civilization"

...yeah... there's some gross people on reddit quarantined subs

They were pretty much asking to be conquered

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America_Dude posted...

How's the saying go? Facts don't care about your feelings. Also the good he did wasn't outweighed by the pure evil he did. The fact you're going so far to defend him, while claiming not to be on "either side" is pretty dubious, at best.

I don't see how 'but also resulted in immense tragedy and suffering. I don't think we should have a holiday honoring him ' counts as 'defending him'.

America_Dude posted...

You really don't think touting his various "accomplishments" isn't in defense of him as a way of weighing out the negative things that guy did? That's... an interesting hot take if I've ever seen one.

Well, yea. Because, like it or not, he DID those accomplishments. You can't deny that. Von Braun helped the nazi's develop the V2 but he was also instrumental in getting NASA off the ground (literally) and, without him, there's a very real chance we wouldn't have made it to the moon. Amerigo Vespucci is credited with at least helming the first expedition to circumnavigate the globe but also did a lot of... questionable... things and died in a fight with native islanders. Oda was a key player in unifying Japan, Hideyoshi followed and kept order through things like launching an invasion of Korea (which helped get the feudal lords focused elsewhere instead of fighting each other), and Ieyasu followed. All three did a lot of terrible things as well; such as enacting massive isolationist policies, invading Korea because it was there, and enforcing a very strict caste system and the like. Stalin and Russia are still though of at least positively for their efforts in WWII even if we launched almost immediately into the Cold War following that.

On the other hand, Genghis Khan is responsible for the single largest empire in the history of man which resulted in a massive leap forwards but also massive amounts of death and destruction. Vlad was a massive bastion against the invading turks but also employed brutal torture methods that, quite understandably, has history remembering him as a monster. Yet if it wasn't for him the Turks would have gotten much further into Europe if they were stopped at all. The Russian Revolution was instrumental in bringing Russia out from under the rule of the Czars, but also resulted in Lenin, Stalin, and all the rest taking power which resulted in massive amounts of death and many other bad things. Was Russia better off under the Czars? Did it improve under Communism? Or did they merely trade one oppressive government for another? Plenty of people would pick any one of those three.

History, and real life, isn't as clear-cut as 'good guy/bad guy'. JFK is looked upon as a hero but, let's face it, if he was alive today he almost certainly would have been classified as a sex offender or worse. Columbus did something worth remembering, but that something also had massive negative repercussions for the natives. If you see him as fully good or fully evil than you're not admiring the man but rather the image of him and what he means to you.

This is also why I'm taking a neutral stance on him. He DID do a lot of terrible things, but he also accomplished something that shook how the world functioned and changed the course of history forever. If you don't acknowledge the bad he did then you're worshiping an idol of the man. If you don't acknowledge his accomplishments then you're deluding yourself. Especially if you attribute everything bad that the old-world nations did to the new world people to him alone. Which is exactly what you seem to be doing.

Unbridled9 posted...

This is also why I'm taking a neutral stance on him.

lmao
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man you must get fucking HEATED when people shit talk hitler without bringing up all the good he did for the country

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TheSlinja posted...

man you must get fucking HEATED when people shit talk hitler without bringing up all the good he did for the country

He did zero good for the country.
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Revelation34 posted...

He did zero good for the country.

Pretty much. If he did anything positive I sure haven't heard of it.

Its not like hitler was elected, was a shitty leader that everyone hated and then died, he pulled the country out of a horrible depression, he invested in infrastructure like railroads and highways, and he eliminated unemployment when it was as high as 30%

but no one cares because oh yeah he commited genocide
if you really want to be so damn both sides about everything then start flying your flags, but the reality of it is not all actions are equal, ghandi being a pervert or MLK cheating on his wives does not equate to what colombus did and people are gonna be rightfully fucking pissed about what he did and those who defend his dumbass

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TheSlinja posted...

Its not like hitler was elected, was a shitty leader that everyone hated and then died, he pulled the country out of a horrible depression, he invested in infrastructure like railroads and highways, and he eliminated unemployment when it was as high as 30%

but no one cares because oh yeah he commited genocide
if you really want to be so damn both sides about everything then start flying your flags, but the reality of it is not all actions are equal, ghandi being a pervert or MLK cheating on his wives does not equate to what colombus did and people are gonna be rightfully fucking pissed about what he did and those who defend his dumbass

Nah he improved nothing. Also those were both claims from books without any way to prove them true. The Ghandi one especially sounds batshit insane.
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Revelation34 posted...

Nah he improved nothing. Also those were both claims from books without any way to prove them true. The Ghandi one especially sounds batshit insane.

I think that came from a Cracked article.

Anyways, assuming he did do those things, sure. I'll give him credit for those. I won't play any favorites here. If I'm crediting the Khan for building a large empire and vastly improving trade routes despite knowing what he did in certain places (IIRC he destroyed so much of the Iraq waterworks that the land is still desert to this day), or Stalin for his help in WWII despite knowing about things like the gulags and such, I'm willing to toss the same bone to Hitler. Fair is fair. But, knowing what I've seen of him before, I suspect those things happened in SPITE of Hitler, not because of him.

If I'm going to focus on the facts, history, and the like I don't get to pick and choose what did or didn't happen. Even if I personally despise the man for putting nazi bullet holes in my family tree if he really did those things I won't suddenly deny that they didn't happen just because I dislike him immensely. Blind zealotry doesn't make me smart, it makes me a fanatic who can't see reality.

ok so would you support a hitler day

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How about colonisation day

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TheSlinja posted...

ok so would you support a hitler day

Why would I? He's not American and has nothing to do with America in the slightest (besides being the enemy in WWII). If the Germans want a day honoring him that's their choice and decision. I think it's in poor taste but I'm not going to tell them how to run their country.

So we agree naming a holiday after a genocidal maniac is in poor taste

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TheSlinja posted...

So we agree naming a holiday after a genocidal maniac is in poor taste

That's not what I said though. I said I thought it was in poor taste but I wasn't going to tell them how to run their country. If a different nation wants to honor a person I think is horrible that's their decision. Likewise, in America, if someone wishes to honor a holiday for someone I dislike then, so long as they aren't being harmful or disruptive, they're free to do so. I'm free to not join in if I dislike it.

TheSlinja posted...

Its not like hitler was elected, was a shitty leader that everyone hated and then died, he pulled the country out of a horrible depression, he invested in infrastructure like railroads and highways, and he eliminated unemployment when it was as high as 30%

but no one cares because oh yeah he commited genocide
if you really want to be so damn both sides about everything then start flying your flags, but the reality of it is not all actions are equal, ghandi being a pervert or MLK cheating on his wives does not equate to what colombus did and people are gonna be rightfully fucking pissed about what he did and those who defend his dumbass

Hitler was largely a net negative. While he was able to pull the country out of a depression, his destruction of civil liberties, the Holocaust and WW2 largely out weigh any positives he did.

Columbus' discovery of the new world introduced new foods, medicines and lands for the Europeans and started a new age: the age of discovery. It greatly increased the net worth of Europe & allowed for a middle class to form of would be adventures and businessmen looking to capitalize on the new wealth opened up. This middle class would eventually grow and push for more rights for everyone and form nations such as America. The discovery that Columbus had was huge

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sure colombus was a net positive......if you lived in europe
i dont think the natives in america found colombus to be a net positive for them

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