Poll of the Day > Columbus Day or Indigenous Day?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm not sad to see Columbus no longer being honored, but the reason Italian-Americans grabbed on to it is it's literally the only holiday honoring an Italian.

But there is a long list of people who deserve to be honored much more than Columbus. There's the inventor Marconi, although he was not an American, but did help the USA out quite a bit with his radio technology (Columbus wasn't an American, either). There's St. Frances Cabrini, who spent her life helping the poor, and was the first American saint. And most have heard of Enrico Ferme, the mathematician physicist who not only worked on the Manhattan Project, but was also a pioneer of quantum theory.

I dislike how this is always set up as a false choice. We can honor both indigenous peoples AND Italians. Nothing is forcing us to only choose one.

TheSlinja posted...

sure colombus was a net positive......if you lived in europe
i dont think the natives in america found colombus to be a net positive for them

the tribes killed each other to take land.

others came and did it on a bigger scale
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Its so easy for people to suddenly get so upset over something these days lol.

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tony8669 posted...

I'm not sad to see Columbus no longer being honored, but the reason Italian-Americans grabbed on to it is it's literally the only holiday honoring an Italian.

But there is a long list of people who deserve to be honored much more than Columbus. There's the inventor Marconi, although he was not an American, but did help the USA out quite a bit with his radio technology (Columbus wasn't an American, either). There's St. Frances Cabrini, who spent her life helping the poor, and was the first American saint. And most have heard of Enrico Ferme, the mathematician physicist who not only worked on the Manhattan Project, but was also a pioneer of quantum theory.

I dislike how this is always set up as a false choice. We can honor both indigenous peoples AND Italians. Nothing is forcing us to only choose one.

This is very true. No reason we can't celebrate both. Also, I don't think Marconi would be a good choice if only because of the number of 'Macaroni' jokes that would happen.

sure colombus was a net positive......if you lived in europe
i dont think the natives in america found colombus to be a net positive for them

After your whining I've begun to stop caring. You seem utterly incapable of any sane or logical train of thought. You have convinced yourself that he was evil and anyone who doesn't agree with that notion is 'defending him'. I've made my stance clear. I'm neutral on the whole issue (though, after dealing with you, I'm leaning more towards Columbus than before) and believe there were both good and bad aspects to him. I can't change history. I will acknowledge the things he did, both good and bad. You seem incapable of understanding this though and, frankly, I'm tired of this.

Unbridled9 posted...

though, after dealing with you, I'm leaning more towards Columbus than before)

LMAO
welp there it is boys

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Mr I'm Not Defending Him, everyone.

You seriously think that attitude's going to make me want to agree with your side? No matter. I'm going to maintain my neutrality on the issue.

watch out guys if we arent nice to assholes they might turn into genocide hand wavers
and its alllll our fault
definitely not the asshole, we pushed them to this of course

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TheSlinja posted...

watch out guys if we arent nice to assholes they might turn into genocide hand wavers
and its alllll our fault
definitely not the asshole, we pushed them to this of course

What's the point of this attitude? Why do you keep the hostility going? Have I once treated you in such a negative manner? Yet you do nothing more than act insulting and hostile for the sake of being insulting and hostile. If you want to be in an echo-chamber may I suggest looking somewhere else other than a topic open to the public.

youve been crying about people being too mean this whole topic but Im the one looking for an echo chamber? lmaoooo

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TheSlinja posted...

youve been crying about people being too mean this whole topic but Im the one looking for an echo chamber? lmaoooo

I haven't 'been crying'. I said both sides were flawed and the side you were on was having immense trouble with communication. To quote 'You're offering nothing more than an empty gesture while acting like complete ***holes to the few people whom actually care about the day. Do you seriously think you're going to get any sort of meaningful victory out of that? It's a fight that's not even pyrrhic; it flat out doesn't even need to happen.'

You tried to get me to defend Hitler. I didn't take the bait. I made it clear I was willing to respect the accomplishments of bad men and acknowledge the shortcomings of good men. You seem to only focus on the negatives. You're not even offering anything in it's place, just content to keep calling him a genocidal madman. It feels like trying to debate a parrot. No matter what I say to it, it will only repeat back the same few words.

I will absolutely continue to be an asshole to those few people who care about the day because I think they deserve it
and why is it victory this victory that? I dont care about winning conversations, it became clear the type of guy you were when you said you were siding more towards colombus after this, you only care about being "right" when there is not really any such thing in this world
I have infinity more respect for people who cape for colombus than those who sit on a fence and act holier than thou since it makes them feel smarter than anyone actually choosing a side

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TheSlinja posted...

I will absolutely continue to be an asshole to those few people who care about the day because I think they deserve it
and why is it victory this victory that? I dont care about winning conversations, it became clear the type of guy you were when you said you were siding more towards colombus after this, you only care about being "right" when there is not really any such thing in this world
I have infinity more respect for people who cape for colombus than those who sit on a fence and act holier than thou since it makes them feel smarter than anyone actually choosing a side

I only said that because of how frustrating YOU have been. YOU! That's the only reason right now I'm turning away from the side that wants indigenous peoples day; YOU! You are failing so hard in your argument right now that I find myself wanting to side against you simply so that I'm not on the same side as you.

And I'm 'sitting on the fence' because the thing I care about is history. I outright said in my OP 'Yet you're acting massively defensive and refusing to acknowledge that he DID do horrible things in favor of an idealized, untrue, version of him.' I've made it clear, multiple times, that this was the thing I cared about and I even took measures to ensure you got the message that I wasn't caring only about European history.

You don't seem to get it though. Guess I shouldn't be surprised that my own words were spot-on accurate. You've offered nothing and acted like a complete ***hole.

Unbridled9 posted...

I only said that because of how frustrating YOU have been. YOU! That's the only reason right now I'm turning away from the side that wants indigenous peoples day; YOU! You are failing so hard in your argument right now that I find myself wanting to side against you simply so that I'm not on the same side as you.

you can try to blame whoever you want for it, if the end result is you defending columbus you are a moron
this is the whole "dying to own the libs" thing, you have no one to blame but yourself for where you end up, its no ones fault but yours if you as a fully formed adult were reverse persuaded? into a decision lmao

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Zangulus posted...

When did I ever say I cared if you agreed with me or not? Youre quite the narcissist.

If you don't care to try and get people to agree with you, then why are you bothering?

TheSlinja posted...

you can try to blame whoever you want for it, if the end result is you defending columbus you are a moron
this is the whole "dying to own the libs" thing, you have no one to blame but yourself for where you end up, its no ones fault but yours if you as a fully formed adult were reverse persuaded? into a decision lmao

Sure. Whatever.

yeah guys like this only see talking as winning or losing, they cant understand why anyone would say something without the goal of getting people to agree with you
real reddit upvote mentality

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tony8669 posted...

I'm not sad to see Columbus no longer being honored, but the reason Italian-Americans grabbed on to it is it's literally the only holiday honoring an Italian.

But there is a long list of people who deserve to be honored much more than Columbus. There's the inventor Marconi, although he was not an American, but did help the USA out quite a bit with his radio technology (Columbus wasn't an American, either). There's St. Frances Cabrini, who spent her life helping the poor, and was the first American saint. And most have heard of Enrico Ferme, the mathematician physicist who not only worked on the Manhattan Project, but was also a pioneer of quantum theory.

I dislike how this is always set up as a false choice. We can honor both indigenous peoples AND Italians. Nothing is forcing us to only choose one.

I've never seen it as a zero-sum discussion but rather trying to give recognition to something more than an explorer who found something he wasn't even looking for. He is just famous for a few voyages to and from the islands around Florida and the coast of South America.

Meanwhile natives cultivated the land and built societies here that have a long tapestry of history to delve into. Repurposing the day from focusing on one man's...voyages for profit to encouraging interest in study and appreciation of the vast web of native cultures across several continents gives more depth and meaning to the day as a day of celebration.

I think trying to approach it as "we're taking a day away from someone who invaded the society of peaceful natives who didn't deserve this," is a short-sighted view. Instead it's looking at the larger scope of how much there is to be celebrated by moving away from Columbus' limited contributions to the contributions of whole societies and civilizations. I think the original logic has poisoned what good can be brought out from it.

If nothing else it helps preserve the tradition of storytelling over just going over the facts of Columbus' voyages again (there's nothing new to be gleaned there yet there is plenty to say about the various societies that a national day of celebration of native cultures would encourage).

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Solid Sonic posted...

Meanwhile natives cultivated the land and built societies here that have a long tapestry of history to delve into. Repurposing the day from focusing on one man's...voyages for profit to encouraging interest in study and appreciation of the vast web of native cultures across several continents gives more depth and meaning to the day as a day of celebration.

I fuck with this

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Put it another way... can you imagine if we colonized the Moon and people on the Moon kept saying how Buzz Aldrin founded the Moon even though the colony didn't start until 350 years later (Moon not to scale)

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Lokarin posted...

Put it another way... can you imagine if we colonized the Moon and people on the Moon kept saying how Buzz Aldrin founded the Moon even though the colony didn't start until 350 years later (Moon not to scale)

It would be closer to having a Buzz Aldrin Day on Mars after we've colonized there.

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tony8669 posted...

I'm not sad to see Columbus no longer being honored, but the reason Italian-Americans grabbed on to it is it's literally the only holiday honoring an Italian.

But there is a long list of people who deserve to be honored much more than Columbus. There's the inventor Marconi, although he was not an American, but did help the USA out quite a bit with his radio technology (Columbus wasn't an American, either). There's St. Frances Cabrini, who spent her life helping the poor, and was the first American saint. And most have heard of Enrico Ferme, the mathematician physicist who not only worked on the Manhattan Project, but was also a pioneer of quantum theory.

I dislike how this is always set up as a false choice. We can honor both indigenous peoples AND Italians. Nothing is forcing us to only choose one.

That's the better idea.

Entity13 posted...

It would be closer to having a Buzz Aldrin Day on Mars after we've colonized there.

Instead we'll get an Elon Musk day.
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tony8669 posted...

We can honor both indigenous peoples AND Italians.

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Entity13 posted...

It would be closer to having a Buzz Aldrin Day on Mars after we've colonized there.

Because Buzz did not discover the Moon or Mars. Columbus discovered a whole new part of the world no one even knew existed. It would be like if Buzz discovered that there were other planets in the solar system and that those planets are readily habitable and gave the directions to them. Even if Buzz did not discover the specific planet that would one day be the home of a famous colony, he still would get massive credit for pointing people in the right direction to begin with, a direction they never would've concieved on thier own

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DragonClaw01 posted...

Because Buzz did not discover the Moon or Mars. Columbus discovered a whole new part of the world no one even knew existed. It would be like if Buzz discovered that there were other planets in the solar system and that those planets are readily habitable and gave the directions to them. Even if Buzz did not discover the specific planet that would one day be the home of a famous colony, he still would get massive credit for pointing people in the right direction to begin with, a direction they never would've concieved on thier own

Then by that logic it should be called Leif Erikson Day.
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Revelation34 posted...

That's the better idea.

Instead we'll get an Elon Musk day.

I agree. I think it's perfectly fine to celebrate both. I do think Columbus day needs to end, but not to spite Columbus, but because it can mean so much more if we expanded the scope. To honor what contributions every group of people brought into making America. Be it 'discovering' America or being it's initial inhabitants or whatever. But in order for that to happen the holiday would need to be more than a meaningless name change and it won't work at all if we have people going around bad-mouthing someone a different group of people honors.

DragonClaw01 posted...

Columbus discovered a whole new part of the world no one even knew existed.

The people that were here already probably knew it existed.
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i am 31. went to elementary school in the 90s. i remember being taught that the whole in 1492 columbus sailed the ocean blue or whatever it was, and that he discovered america. dunno what they are teaching now. i don't even remember when i found out about the truth about columbus. i think i heard it from my father first though (i am black and my father is black).

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GanonsSpirit posted...

DragonClaw01 posted...
Columbus discovered a whole new part of the world no one even knew existed.

better to say the first italian perhaps. and i know many italian people are proud of columbus.

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GanonsSpirit posted...

The people that were here already probably knew it existed.

Ehhh... Usually when people say something like that they're referring to the larger global consciousness. Cause, like, if we were talking about places NO ONE had ever been before it would only count for, like, a few islands and Antarctica. Regardless, though, it was the time when the peoples in the Americas were made aware of the people in the east and vice-versa.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RkSOIiKjyHY
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magemaximus posted...

better to say the first italian perhaps. and i know many italian people are proud of columbus.

Replace it with Mario Day.
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Revelation34 posted...

Replace it with Mario Day.

Mario Mario or Luigi Mario? It's hard to tell since they're both brothers and father and son.