Current Events > There is no reasonable argument against SBMM.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Period.
There is no reasonable argument against skill-based matchmaking, and yet every FPS player seems to hate it.

The only people that have any footing to argue against it are Streamers, because "pubstomp" videos or "100 kills in a match!" Videos still get the most views.


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it's still matchmaking therefore garbage

bring back player run servers

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DarthAragorn posted...

it's still matchmaking therefore garbage

bring back player run servers

Without matchmaking multiplayer gaming would have far less active online scenes.

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Given that Activision has all but confirmed that their matchmaking is more based on incentivizing players to spend money, what games out there still do actual skill based matchmaking, rather than "pair up the guy who just bought the new skin with a bunch of newbies so he stomps them and feels good about his purchase while making the newbies jealous of the new skin"?

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s0nicfan posted...

Given that Activision has all but confirmed that their matchmaking is more based on incentivizing players to spend money, what games out there still do actual skill based matchmaking, rather than "pair up the guy who just bought the new skin with a bunch of newbies so he stomps them and feels good about his purchase while making the newbies jealous of the new skin"?

I was prompted to make this topic because Bungie is putting SBMM into Trials (competitive mode) and people are whinging about it.

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In 1v1 games skill based matchmaking is fine, because the results are directly the result of your own skill

In team games it doesn't work because there is no way to determine one player's skill from the results of a team effort where skill is irrelevant and only coordination is the deciding factor
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I think that people just don't have a good sense of how much they "should" win in a balanced environment.

Like in Fortnite solos, you should only be winning about once every 100 games. But that's a lot of games to lose, so it feels like the matchmaking "isn't working".

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MarthGoomba posted...

In 1v1 games skill based matchmaking is fine, because the results are directly the result of your own skill

In team games it doesn't work because there is no way to determine one player's skill from the results of a team effort where skill is irrelevant and only coordination is the deciding factor

Individual skill is never irrelevant in modern shooters.
A team of low rated players can have excellent teamwork, and still lose to higher rated players due to overall being less skilled.
IE. Accuracy, movement, positioning, decision making

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SBMM in pubs is dumb. If you want to play against people of similar skill, play ranked

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Try_Another___ posted...

SBMM in pubs is dumb. If you want to play against people of similar skill, play ranked

"It's dumb" isn't an argument.
"I want to play against less skilled people so I can dominate them and feel superior." Is a shitty argument.

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meestermj posted...

"It's dumb" isn't an argument.
"I want to play against less skilled people so I can dominate them and feel superior." Is a shitty argument.

Try_Another___ posted...

play ranked

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>smurfs or alts
>occasional wide range pairing


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It made TF2 worse.

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Try_Another___ posted...

play ranked

You've still not posted a reasonable argument.
The only reason to not want SBMM is to feel superior to others with little effort, which is a shit reason.
Players should not be relegated to having a shit time in a game they like purely because of skill level.

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Bullshit system where tilt will drop you one letter grade?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Bullshit system where tilt will drop you one letter grade?

If your mental state affects your play, you deserve to lose the match.
If you are that good, just work your way back up.
Speaking as someone who frequently gets tilted.

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meestermj posted...

You've still not posted a reasonable argument.
The only reason to not want SBMM is to feel superior to others with little effort, which is a shit reason.
Players should not be relegated to having a shit time in a game they like purely because of skill level.

if theres no sbmm then there will always be a bigger fish than you. The good players get pubstomped too. Its a *public* server.

if youre having a shit time in a game, why do you like it? If you like the game, why are you not getting better at it?

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meestermj posted...

If your mental state affects your play, you deserve to lose the match.
If you are that good, just work your way back up.
Speaking as someone who frequently gets tilted.

No, I'm not good. I'm trying to play in the right letter grade but stuff keeps getting in the way.

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Try_Another___ posted...

if theres no sbmm then there will always be a bigger fish than you. The good players get pubstomped too. Its a *public* server.

if youre having a shit time in a game, why do you like it? If you like the game, why are you not getting better at it?

In every match there is a bigger fish.
People all start at the same rank, and move up if they're more skilled.
SBMM doesn't leave you in the exact same bracket every match, unless you hit your plateau.
Pubstomping is garbage, and a shitty aspect of the FPS community.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

If you got bumped down and can't work your way back up, you're where you belong. Simple.


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if SBMM is going to be forced on everyone just remove ranked/unranked and have one mode where your skill is visible at all times

and remove the bullshit where throwing one or two games can massively lower your "skill" level

there's yet to be a single game I've come across that has handled this well at all

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DarthAragorn posted...

if SBMM is going to be forced on everyone just remove ranked/unranked and have one mode where your skill is visible at all times

and remove the bullshit where throwing one or two games can massively lower your "skill" level

there's yet to be a single game I've come across that has handled this well at all

Ranked is for people that care about ladders, brackets, and rewards.

Everyone deserves to play a fair match and have a good time. Period.

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meestermj posted...

In every match there is a bigger fish.
People all start at the same rank, and move up if they're more skilled.
SBMM doesn't leave you in the exact same bracket every match, unless you hit your plateau.
Pubstomping is garbage, and a shitty aspect of the FPS community.

i agree with what youre saying about pubstomping but what youre describing already exists in ranked play. Its redundant to have SBMM outside of that, and its dubious when its calculated based on values that are not visible to the player. Also, people will still pubstomp, they just do it on smurf accounts.


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Try_Another___ posted...

i agree with what youre saying about pubstomping but what youre describing already exists in ranked play. Its redundant to have SBMM outside of that, and its dubious when its calculated based on values that are not visible to the player. Also, people will still pubstomp, they just do it on smurf accounts.

And smurfing is also garbage.
It's not redundant to provide a fair and fun experience for every player.
Matchmaking usually takes into account kills, deaths, assists, and wins. All easily visible stats.

Ranked is for the people that want to show off their rank and earn rewards for being "the best".
It serves a different purpose than general play.

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meestermj posted...

Everyone deserves to play a fair match and have a good time. Period.

Got 20 surf accounts
I've been through countless stims

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meestermj posted...

Ranked is for people that care about ladders, brackets, and rewards.

Everyone deserves to play a fair match and have a good time. Period.

Disregarding valid criticisms about how SBMM is handled doesnt magically make it fair. People that know how SBMM works can game the system, bc SBMM puts a numeric value on a single persons skill for a team based game that is greater affected by communication and meta weapons.

SBMM is great in theory, but so far the practice is bad.

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meestermj posted...

Ranked is for the people that want to show off their rank and earn rewards for being "the best".
It serves a different purpose than general play.

i think its a misrepresentation to say that the motive for playing ranked is to show off.

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Competitive modes should be skill based and casual modes should only be about network connection or speed of finding games quickly.

TC seems to be on a crusade against all pub stomps but SBMM killed Call of Duty around the time of Black Ops 2. Connections were ASS and you couldn't play any mode in the entire game without sweating.

That said Trials in Destiny is meant to be competition so of course it should have it.

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bladegash posted...

Disregarding valid criticisms about how SBMM is handled doesnt magically make it fair. People that know how SBMM works can game the system, bc SBMM puts a numeric value on a single persons skill for a team based game that is greater affected by communication and meta weapons.

SBMM is great in theory, but so far the practice is bad.

I never said it was perfect.
And if game companies are doing it poorly and weighting the wrong stats that's something to be addressed.
But compiling teams of a similar skill level to face each other is the most fair way to do it.
Being against it solely because you enjoy pubstomping is gross.

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M_Live posted...

What's wrong with matchmaking?

what isn't?

inherently removes any sense of community, no player-admin control over games so griefers/cheaters/whatever run unchecked, forced to rely on the game choosing a match with a decent connection for you

and the benefit is, what, saving you 10 seconds of reading a server list?

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I prefer no SBMM. Its more fun, in my opinion. The random element of not knowing what youre going up against. Sometimes youre the god of the lobby, sometimes youre getting bodied hard. Being humbled like that drives me to improve until I can compete against them.

SBMM does belong in ranked matches. But casual should be entirely random IMO.

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ArianaGrandSlam posted...

smurfs are the only argument against SBMM you need

Smurfs are garbage and a community problem.
Until people get away from the "pubstomp" mentality that makes competitive communities so toxic, they'll always be a problem.

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meestermj posted...

I never said it was perfect.
And if game companies are doing it poorly and weighting the wrong stats that's something to be addressed.
But compiling teams of a similar skill level to face each other is the most fair way to do it.
Being against it solely because you enjoy pubstomping is gross.

Oh I certainly agree, thats my concerns with SBMM. Not that i want it back the way it was before, i just want it changed to something that works better.


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It's right that some games has it. Wrong that some other has it.

Ranked is a lot of fun normally for me. I doubt Competition and rank is for everybody.

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bladegash posted...

Oh I certainly agree, thats my concerns with SBMM. Not that i want it back the way it was before, i just want it changed to something that works better.

I think modern games put too much focus on Kills and KD ratios.
Win percentage should be the bigger metric.
A person with 5 kills per game but a 92% win rate definitely doesn't belong in the same lobby as someone getting 15 kills with a 35% win rate.

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super brothers mario madness?
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HaVeNII7 posted...

SBMM does belong in ranked matches. But casual should be entirely random IMO.

It seems weird that for 50% of players it would be easier to win a ranked game than a casual game, doesn't it?

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Anteaterking posted...

It seems weird that for 50% of players it would be easier to win a ranked game than a casual game, doesn't it?

Not really, IMO. I suppose calling it ranked and casual wouldnt be the right way to go about it then. Quick Match and Ranked Match? You see where Im coming from though. One random queue for people who just want to play - another queue for people who want to test themselves against similarly skilled players.

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meestermj posted...

I think modern games put too much focus on Kills and KD ratios.
Win percentage should be the bigger metric.
A person with 5 kills per game but a 92% win rate definitely doesn't belong in the same lobby as someone getting 15 kills with a 35% win rate.

Exactly. Ive always thought if you play with friends, games should keep track of your entire teams win % and match you with other teams of similar win %, and a totally separate value and matching algorithm when playing solo or small parties. Bc me playing sweaty with my crew of 5 friends should be affected and matched differently than when im just jamming out to music solo and grinding challenges or something like that with my wife .


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bladegash posted...

Exactly. Ive always thought if you play with friends, games should keep track of your entire teams win % and match you with other teams of similar win %, and a totally separate value and matching algorithm when playing solo or small parties. Bc me playing sweaty with my crew of 5 friends should be affected and matched differently than when im just jamming out to music solo and grinding challenges or something like that with my wife .

I firmly believe there should be separate ques for groups and solo players, however it's just not possible in a 6v6 game. There will always be an autopilot to keep the team numbers balanced.


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Why does the first guy get five confirmed kills per game?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Why does the first guy get five confirmed kills per game?

It was an example sir. Because kills are not the only metric for success in many game modes. CtF, domination, headquarters, etc.


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SBMM ruins the ability for friends of different skill levels to be able to party up and play together. My brother was one of the better players in his group of friends that used to play CoD together, and once MW2019's strict SBMM came out, it got to the point where a lot of his friends just stopped inviting him to play because him simply being there would result in them being forced to play opponents multiple brackets above their own skill levels. They would get absolutely destroyed every single game without fail and not have any fun playing the game until he left the party and played solo. I'm of a lower skill level too, and I also experience it when I try playing with him. I play well solo but get absolutely reamed whenever I party up with my brother.

If there were no/light SBMM, then my brother would still be able to play together with his friends (and me) because the opposing teams would also likely be of different skill levels and not all equal to the highest one in the party. But as it stands now, my brother has lost a lot of those friends he used to play CoD because SBMM forced his friends to choose between playing with him or having fun, and they chose their fun over him. He's on the verge of quitting CoD entirely and has actually become more depressed in the past couple of years because of the game taking away his ability to play alongside his friends just because he's too good at the game.
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I've only ever heard streamers complain about this I don't think casual players care as much.


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apocalyptic_4 posted...

I've only ever heard streamers complain about this I don't think casual players care as much.

There's literally a casual player complaining about it in the post right above yours.
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Calwings posted...

SBMM ruins the ability for friends of different skill levels to be able to party up and play together. My brother was one of the better players in his group of friends that used to play CoD together, and once MW2019's strict SBMM came out, it got to the point where a lot of his friends just stopped inviting him to play because him simply being there would result in them being forced to play opponents multiple brackets above their own skill levels. They would get absolutely destroyed every single game without fail and not have any fun playing the game until he left the party and played solo. I'm of a lower skill level too, and I also experience it when I try playing with him. I play well solo but get absolutely reamed whenever I party up with my brother.

If there were no/light SBMM, then my brother would still be able to play together with his friends (and me) because the opposing teams would also likely be of different skill levels and not all equal to the highest one in the party. But as it stands now, my brother has lost a lot of those friends he used to play CoD because SBMM forced his friends to choose between playing with him or having fun, and they chose their fun over him. He's on the verge of quitting CoD entirely and has actually become more depressed in the past couple of years because of the game taking away his ability to play alongside his friends just because he's too good at the game.

I can understand your point, and it's a valid argument.
Thank you!
I would honestly be fine if they implemented a game mode without SBMM called like 'No Holds Barred' or "Casual" or something.
I just feel like the default mode shouldn't be so imbalanced as to make it frustrating for the average player.

Why should an average player have to play with someone that had a 5.0+ KD ratio and get absolutely dominated?
And then get punished for leaving such a match?

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The constant arguing about SBMM is so weird to me. In pretty much every other genre of game I've played with a competitive mode the expectation was always that as you got better you would play against people who were more skilled, and that it self was the reward/goal. Like in WoW if complained that as you climbed up in arena and were "punished" for winning because you had to play equally good players, you'd be ridiculed non stop, yet in FPS games many players do seem to think that having to play against players their own skill level is both a "punishment" and unfair.

Imagine if every time Tom Brady made it to the plays offs he bitched endlessly that he had to play against teams with a winning record and instead couldn't keep beating up the jets.

MarthGoomba posted...

In team games it doesn't work because there is no way to determine one player's skill from the results of a team effort where skill is irrelevant and only coordination is the deciding factor

How did you come to this conclusion

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