Current Events > Does Batman vs. Superman ever make sense?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I see no reason Superman wouldn't be able to speed-blitz Batman in 100% of their battles.

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superman 2000 posted...

I see no reason Superman wouldn't be able to speed-blitz Batman in 100% of their battles.

Maybe if he was mind controlled or went evil, in which case really is little reason he doesn't just obliterate his foes other than plot armour/story reasons.

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If Superman can see Batman, then Batman stands no chance. Supes can use his super speed to do whatever he wants to Bats. Batman can only win if he gets Superman with kryptonite when hes not expecting it.

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He just needs to go full Homelander and Bats is fucked.

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No

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Superman holds back on almost everyone.

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The notion of Batman vs Superman is equally as ridiculous as the internet's notion that Supes speedblitzes all the time.

I can never see Batman winning in a one on one fight. Batman can only win via ambush.

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Batman plans on Superman underestimating him and fights him in power-armor. Superman confidently grapples the suit only to have a surprise kryptonite arrow fired by the Green Arrow hit him in the chest.

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In the time it takes Batman to reach into his pocket and pull out anything even vaguely green, Superman should be able to casually zip around the block before punching Bruce into a coma.

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TheSavageDragon posted...

The notion of Batman vs Superman is equally as ridiculous as the internet's notion that Supes speedblitzes all the time.

Who ever argues that Superman speedblitzes all the time? The point is that he can, and I see no reason as to why he doesn't in fights against weaklings like Batman.

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Robot2600 posted...

Batman plans on Superman underestimating him and fights him in power-armor. Superman confidently grapples the suit only to have a surprise kryptonite arrow fired by the Green Arrow hit him in the chest.

I just watched that entire fight, and it's what inspired this topic. It makes no sense that Batman was able to land a single punch, let alone multiple hits.

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In any scenario they fight Supes would either 1) be doing his typical hold back to not kill humans thing or 2) he's being mind controlled and subconsciously fighting the mind control so his body is holding back and doesnt kill batman

If for whatever reason Superman didnt have his no kill clause, saw Bats as a threat, and went all out; of course he'd win, but then he wouldn't really be Superman would he

If we're talking about the movie yeah its dumb, period

Batman in comics, highly acclaimed cartoon, and highly acclaimed live action film series: "I do not kill."

Batman in Batman v Superman: "He's on the same side as me, but he's stronger than me. I'd better kill him just to be safe."

superman 2000 posted...

I just watched that entire fight, and it's what inspired this topic. It makes no sense that Batman was able to land a single punch, let alone multiple hits.

I've only read the comic and it seemed to make sense on the page.

I think the key is that Superman underestimates Batman. He sees the power-suit and is just focused on that, not thinking it's a threat but thinking that Batman thinks it is a threat. So Superman has no problem taking 1 or 2 punches from the thing while planning to talk Batman down.

In reality Batman knows it is not a threat, but it is big and flashy and works as the perfect distraction.

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I think that even within the Super-Heroes, discord with weapons can happens.

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superman 2000 posted...

Who ever argues that Superman speedblitzes all the time? The point is that he can, and I see no reason as to why he doesn't in fights against weaklings like Batman.

Because he doesn't do it against every single non powered opponent he's ever fought ? Hell he doesn't even do it against super powered opponents that don't have some form of superspeed.
The only time you'll see Supes speedblitz is when innocents are in danger.

Robot2600 posted...

I've only read the comic and it seemed to make sense on the page.

I think the key is that Superman underestimates Batman. He sees the power-suit and is just focused on that, not thinking it's a threat but thinking that Batman thinks it is a threat. So Superman has no problem taking 1 or 2 punches from the thing while planning to talk Batman down.

In reality Batman knows it is not a threat, but it is big and flashy and works as the perfect distraction.

That makes A LOT more sense than what the animated version did. Batman and Superman were legit trading blows, and Superman was clearly being hurt.

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superman 2000 posted...

It makes no sense that Batman was able to land a single punch, let alone multiple hits.

Even if Superman is standing still?

TheSavageDragon posted...

Because he doesn't do it against every single non powered opponent he's ever fought ?

Which is the very basis for topics such as this. If he's trying to physically subdue someone and they're somehow able to resist, he should just speed-blitz 'em.

Hell he doesn't even do it against super powered opponents that don't have some form of superspeed.
The only time you'll see Supes speedblitz is when innocents are in danger.

So basically, it just doesn't make sense altogether.

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FortuneCookie posted...

Batman in Batman v Superman: "He's on the same side as me, but he's stronger than me. I'd better kill him just to be safe."

Dude. That's such a massive oversimplification.

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lolife67 posted...

Even if Superman is standing still?

If Superman is standing still, then yes, it makes sense that Batman's (or anyone's) attacks can hit him. If he's fighting back and trying to avoid strikes, then no, it doesn't make sense.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Dude. That's such a massive oversimplification.

It's literally his motivation in the movie. He states that, if there's even a 1% chance of Superman betraying humanity, it has to be taken as a certainty. That's dictator logic.

superman 2000 posted...

If Superman is standing still, then yes, it makes sense that Batman's (or anyone's) attacks can hit him. If he's fighting back and trying to avoid strikes, then no, it doesn't make sense.

The only time he was in danger was after being hit with the kryptonite, though. And being weakened, of course he can't move at super speed. Prior to that, why would he bother to dodge?

lolife67 posted...

The only time he was in danger was after being hit with the kryptonite, though. And being weakened, of course he can't move at super speed. Prior to that, why would he bother to dodge?

Because the entire time, his goal was to physically subdue Batman. Why is he indulging Batman at all instead of simply incapacitating him, and then attempting to reason?

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FortuneCookie posted...

It's literally his motivation in the movie. He states that, if there's even a 1% chance of Superman betraying humanity, it has to be taken as a certainty. That's dictator logic.

You're leaving out all of the context. It's not just that he's "stronger," it's that Superman is like a God, is at that point 100% unaccountable for his actions, and had been at least partially blamed for what happened leading to thousands of deaths in Metropolis. He's a being from another world who makes humans look like ants.

Bruce isn't afraid of Clark Kent; he's not afraid of the real Superman. He's afraid of the idea of Superman. It's not that Superman is stronger than Batman-- it's that Superman is stronger than all of humanity combined.

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Yeah. I get it.

Superman more powerful.
Superman dangerous.
Kill Superman.

Batman's logic and motivation are literally Lex Luthor's from the comic books.

superman 2000 posted...

That makes A LOT more sense than what the animated version did. Batman and Superman were legit trading blows, and Superman was clearly being hurt.

Here's the full breakdown of the Batman v Superman fight in TDKR (graphic novel):

Batman's already set up in Crime Alley when Superman comes flying over with a military escort. Superman scans the area with x-ray vision, which triggers hunter missiles that Batman rigged to launch at him; at this point it's important to remember that Superman is still recovering from a nuclear explosion, something that Batman notes when Superman fails to dodge the missiles. After that, Superman lands, and takes a shot from the Bat-Tank that 'could sink a battleship.' Superman then disables the Bat-Tank, and tries to reason with Batman; Batman hits him with a high-powered sonic emitter. Superman rips off Batman's helmet. Batman uses some kind of shock gloves to fry Superman's brains. Superman punches Batman and breaks his ribs. Superman then notices Green Arrow fighting government troops, and Batman distracts Superman with a face-full of acid. Green Arrow then shots Superman with the kryptonite arrow. While Superman is incapacitated, Batman punches and stomps him until the medically-induced heart attack 'kills' Batman.

It's been awhile since I've seen TDKR animated adaptation, but I thought I remembered it being fairly accurate. The biggest takeaway is that Batman uses secondary tech attacks and tricks at first to try and keep Superman distracted, and doesn't actually engage him in hand-to-hand combat until after the kryptonite.

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I appreciate you trying to defend the movie, but don't pour water into a shallow pool. It's just going to spill over. For all the depth that movie has, you could jump in and your knees wouldn't get wet.

FortuneCookie posted...

Yeah. I get it.

Superman more powerful.
Superman dangerous.
Kill Superman.

Batman's logic and motivation are literally Lex Luthor's from the comic books.

Was gonna say this but the post message box ate my message

Superman never tries to kill batman so it makes sense. Also, superman doesn't need to dodge unless someone has kryptonite, so it's too late by whenever if at all he fights seriously.

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superman 2000 posted...

Because the entire time, his goal was to physically subdue Batman. Why is he indulging Batman at all instead of simply incapacitating him, and then attempting to reason?

No it wasn't. His entire goal was try and talk sense into Bruce and gain his help. He didn't have time to KO him and wait for him to wake up, so he wasn't going to just smash through him. And he did ty to incapacitate Bruce when he knocked him down and basically told him to stay there. He was shot with the K-nite immediately afterwards.

Not to mention your initial problem was him not dodging but you seem to be moving the goalposts a bit.

masterpug53 posted...

Here's the full breakdown of the Batman v Superman fight in TDKR (graphic novel):

Batman's already set up in Crime Alley when Superman comes flying over with a military escort. Superman scans the area with x-ray vision, which triggers hunter missiles that Batman rigged to launch at him; at this point it's important to remember that Superman is still recovering from a nuclear explosion, something that Batman notes when Superman fails to dodge the missiles. After that, Superman lands, and takes a shot from the Bat-Tank that 'could sink a battleship.' Superman then disables the Bat-Tank, and tries to reason with Batman; Batman hits him with a high-powered sonic emitter. Superman rips off Batman's helmet. Batman uses some kind of shock gloves to fry Superman's brains. Superman punches Batman and breaks his ribs. Superman then notices Green Arrow fighting government troops, and Batman distracts Superman with a face-full of acid. Green Arrow then shots Superman with the kryptonite arrow. While Superman is incapacitated, Batman punches and stomps him until the medically-induced heart attack 'kills' Batman.

It's been awhile since I've seen TDKR animated adaptation, but I thought I remembered it being fairly accurate. The biggest takeaway is that Batman uses secondary tech attacks and tricks at first to try and keep Superman distracted, and doesn't actually engage him in hand-to-hand combat until after the kryptonite.

So yeah, this makes a lot more sense. The animated version added parts where Batman and Superman are straight-up duking it out and sending each other through environmental structures on some Dragon Ball shit.


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lolife67 posted...

No it wasn't.

Yes, it was. Once Batman made it a fight, all Superman had to do was incapacitate him, AND THEN attempt to reason (as I previously mentioned).

His entire goal was try and talk sense into Bruce and gain his help. He didn't have time to KO him and wait for him to wake up, so he wasn't going to just smash through him.

You don't have to "smash through" someone to incapacitate them.

And he did ty to incapacitate Bruce when he knocked him down and basically told him to stay there. He was shot with the K-nite immediately afterwards.

After a long, drawn-out fight where Batman did things he shouldn't have been capable of, hence the topic.

Not to mention your initial problem was him not dodging but you seem to be moving the goalposts a bit.

No, that's simply what this became after you responded to my response to another person's comment.

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It never makes sense for them to fight. Its fan service

superman 2000 posted...

After a long, drawn-out fight where Batman did things he shouldn't have been capable of, hence the topic.

Um, no. The fight had barely started when he pushes Bruce down.

superman 2000 posted...

No, that's simply what this became after you responded to my response to another person's comment.

My response answered your initial question, though. You then pivoted to this as though it refuted my point, which would be moving goal posts.

For the record, here's the entire fight in two videos:

https://youtu.be/zYGPZs7ovsA

https://youtu.be/9-ZYZdEN4g4

As you can see, there are various parts where Batman is just whoopin' Superman's ass, and Superman is clearly not in control when it happens.

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FortuneCookie posted...

I appreciate you trying to defend the movie, but don't pour water into a shallow pool. It's just going to spill over. For all the depth that movie has, you could jump in and your knees wouldn't get wet.

I mean... all of these factors are stated in the movie itself. Bruce is a bitter, jaded vigilante who spent 20 years fighting crime for almost no significant reward. Society is still crumbling, people still die, good men turn bad.

"20 years in Gotham... how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

This is a Bruce crushed by the weight of a cruel world. We know he lost his Robin; seemingly his only Robin in this universe. We also see as an audience what Bruce doesn't. We see the human side of Clark, we see what drives him, the lengths he goes to in order to protect the earth and the people he loves.

It's very well made if you really put yourself into the positions of the characters and see things from their point of view. It requires more investment from the audience than an average comic book film, so a lot of people miss out on just how thoroughly the characters are explored.

Memes turned a rewarding comic book movie into "bloodthirsty Batman and mopey Superman have mothers with the same name," but it deserves way more credit than that.

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It really doesn't

lolife67 posted...

Um, no. The fight had barely started when he pushes Bruce down.

You are incorrect. I just posted the entire fight.

My response answered your initial question, though. You then pivoted to this as though it refuted my point, which would be moving goal posts.

No, it didn't and no, I didn't. You've yet to answer why Superman wouldn't just speed-blitz everything Batman threw at him if it's causing him inconvenience. If Superman can simply tank everything Batman throws at him, then sure, obviously there's no need to dodge. That isn't always the case though, so there's no need to be disingenuous.

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superman 2000 posted...

You are incorrect. I just posted the entire fight.

Ah! Well then the error is we're speaking about 2 different fights. I'm speaking of the live action one.

Punished_Joseph posted...

It really doesn't

I disagree with you.

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lolife67 posted...

Ah! Well then the error is we're speaking about 2 different fights. I'm speaking of the live action one.

I haven't seen the live action one, but still, I'd wonder how Batman was able to cause Superman any level of inconvenience if Superman's body and brain can move and process information many times faster.

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FortuneCookie posted...

Yeah. I get it.

Superman more powerful.
Superman dangerous.
Kill Superman.

Batman's logic and motivation are literally Lex Luthor's from the comic books.

This. Batman is literally using Lex Luthor logic. In a movie with Lex Luthor in it.

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A username like that and you never considered The World of Cardboard speach. Smh, TC

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superman 2000 posted...

I haven't seen the live action one, but still, I'd wonder how Batman was able to cause Superman any level of inconvenience if Superman's body and brain can move and process information many times faster.

It's a pretty good fight scene, really. It really drives home just how mismatched Batman and Superman are. When Superman isn't under the effects of kryptonite, Batman punches him several times square in the face and just hits with a "tink tink tink" for no damage whatsoever.

The way it makes sense as a fight is that it's the very first time Superman has encountered kryptonite. He actually catches the grenade launched at him, but then it explodes with kryptonite gas, and he's significantly weakened for the rest of the battle.

That plus the fact Superman didn't want to fight in the first place is why it made sense.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

It's a pretty good fight scene, really. It really drives home just how mismatched Batman and Superman are. When Superman isn't under the effects of kryptonite, Batman punches him several times square in the face and just hits with a "tink tink tink" for no damage whatsoever.

The way it makes sense as a fight is that it's the very first time Superman has encountered kryptonite. He actually catches the grenade launched at him, but then it explodes with kryptonite gas, and he's significantly weakened for the rest of the battle.

That plus the fact Superman didn't want to fight in the first place is why it made sense.

This makes me want to watch the fight. It sounds fun.

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Ivynn posted...

This. Batman is literally using Lex Luthor logic. In a movie with Lex Luthor in it.

This may come as a shock, but we're actually not supposed to be rooting for Batman to win. We as an audience are supposed to know that Bruce is mistaken, because we saw Man of Steel; we know exactly what happened in Metropolis. We know who Clark is as a person.

Bruce doesn't know what we know. BvS opens with Bruce's perspective on the battle in Metropolis. There's no way for people on the ground to really know what was happening. It was pure panic, destruction, and death.

We are meant to understand why Bruce feels the way he feels, because he's really not being irrational based on what he knows as a character in the story-- we're also meant to know that he's wrong. The movie is about his self destructive path toward vengeance and a cold-blooded execution. About succumbing to the burdens and guilt to transform into a cruel person.

Batman using Lex Luthor logic is 100% intended. He lived long enough to see himself become the villain, but in the end he was able to overcome the bitterness and anger to remember why he started out fighting crime in the first place. To keep people alive; to prevent more kids from losing parents, or parents from losing children. (Such as how he lost his own parents, and his own "child" in Robin)

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