Current Events > 1000 year old remains from Finland might be of a nonbinary person.

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/09/1026183914/new-dna-analysis-finds-1-000-year-old-warrior-remains-may-be-non-binary

Imagine not fitting into your gender binary in a time where people don't know how toast works and still being a badass and loved by your community.

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Nice

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K

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Males born with Klinefelter syndrome are born with an extra X chromosome (XXY), according to the United Kingdom's National Health Service.

when did this become to mean non-binary?

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Not gonna read the link but how do they know

Kloe_Rinz posted...

Not gonna read the link

Why not?
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Kloe_Rinz posted...

Not gonna read the link but how do they know

they don't, they assumed because they probably had Klinefelter (which can make a male more effeminate with lowered testosterone) then they must have been non-binary which is attributing a genetic condition to people who consider themselves non-binary which seems contrary to the entire premise of gender not being defined by your biology.

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Machete posted...

Why not?

At work on lunch and I only have time to post not read
ill read when I get home if I remember

I Like Toast posted...

they don't, they assumed because they probably had Klinefelter (which can make a male more effeminate with lowered testosterone) then they must have been non-binary which is attributing a genetic condition to people who consider themselves non-binary which seems contrary to the entire premise of gender not being defined by your biology.

The article says they were buried with grave goods typical of both genders.


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I Like Toast posted...

they don't, they assumed because they probably had Klinefelter (which can make a male more effeminate with lowered testosterone) then they must have been non-binary which is attributing a genetic condition to people who consider themselves non-binary which seems contrary to the entire premise of gender not being defined by your biology.

hopefully this is not true and the article confirmed the person thought of their gender identity as non-binary


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That's not non-binary, it's intersex. It opens up the possibility which is pretty cool, as it makes me wonder if other discoveries throughout the ages similar to it were misinterpreted and therefore lost to the historical record. The study is making certain assumptions beyond the grounds of their evidence but it's certainly a possibility. The line

"It demonstrates that early medieval societies had very nuanced approaches to and understandings of gender identities."

is purely wishful thinking however. What's clear is this is a very unique case as of yet. A lot more likely that it was a prominent noble or the family of one.

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So they were an anime hero?

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ArianaGrandSlam posted...

Wouldnt that be intersex, not non-binary?

Yup.

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whats the over or under pertaining to whether TC responds again in this topic?

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Um, he/she had a chromosome disorder. Non binary is some new shit that regular people claim to be

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clickbait

Literally just put "nonbinary" into it for clicks. And I'm laughing that it's NPR, of all sources...thought they had better quality control than this.

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Wouldn't that mean they're intersex, not NB?

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David1988 posted...

whats the over or under pertaining to whether TC responds again in this topic?

I'll take the under for before midnight CST

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David1988 posted...

whats the over or under pertaining to whether TC responds again in this topic?

all it takes is one transphobic comment to summon CyricZ

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Heliogabalus posted...

The article says they were buried with grave goods typical of both genders.

no it says they had woolen clothes, which was more common in feminine outfits. Which is one a giant leap and two not what non-binary means.

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flopic

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David1988 posted...

whats the over or under pertaining to whether TC responds again in this topic?

@CyricZ

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Heliogabalus posted...

The article says they were buried with grave goods typical of both genders.

And I wasn't buried with a god damn thing

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Really weird clickbait

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Has anyone tried checking their twitter bio to see if they have they/them pronouns in their bio or an NB handle?

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Solution_45 posted...

flopic

XD

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May I have the honor of reintroducing you to the word androgyny?

Heliogabalus posted...

The article says they were buried with grave goods typical of both genders.

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Androgyny has existed for thousands of years.

Imagine being a someone like Cyric. Never would have thought the walking #metoo case would have becomE such an outspoken proponent of social justice.

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ShyOx posted...

The line

"It demonstrates that early medieval societies had very nuanced approaches to and understandings of gender identities."

is purely wishful thinking however. What's clear is this is a very unique case as of yet. A lot more likely that it was a prominent noble or the family of one.

Maybe if you're completely ignorant of the various ancient and surviving cultures that do have non-binary gender roles. Otherwise I'd say pre-Christian Finland was just a part of the norm at the time. A norm that evolved from the fact that humanity has always had people who didn't fit one gender role and literaly evolved their cultures around them.

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really pathetic clickbait

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

Imagine being a someone like Cyric.

He ignores common sense and bases findings on feelings rather than actual science.

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I Like Toast posted...

no it says they had woolen clothes, which was more common in feminine outfits. Which is one a giant leap and two not what non-binary means.

Located in Suontaka Vesitorninmki, southern Finland, the remains were buried alongside a sword and jewelry such as brooches and found in fragments of woolen clothes which were "a typical feminine costume of the era," the researchers said.


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They had items both feminine and masculine, they must have been nonbinary. That's really the only thing that makes sense. But wait, what if they were simply genderfluid, or questioning, or the rare dualbinary?

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And y'all are still treating me better than Twitter.

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FratMilkyHolme posted...

Androgony just means someone whose appearance could look either male or female. This is intersex.

Also existed for thousands of years

They were probably held in high regard too

*Androgyny can mean both

Why they digging up peoples graves?

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Thats okay.

We learned something today.

The Hijra in India have actual literary documentation on the Indian subcontinent dating back thousands of years.

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Heliogabalus posted...

Located in Suontaka Vesitorninmki, southern Finland, the remains were buried alongside a sword and jewelry such as brooches and found in fragments of woolen clothes which were "a typical feminine costume of the era," the researchers said.

You can't draw any conclusions from this other than a guess, and that guess is really only a strong one if nonbinary people were known to be recognized in that culture. You can't just say "well this stuff was there, therefore x"

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This is sensational journalism that doesnt belong in the scientific community

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This was really just a late night thing of me imagining a community where they were chill with gender non-conforming people and thinking it'd be pretty cool and it got real while I slept.

Anyway, here's a more direct article from the University of Turku:

https://www.utu.fi/en/news/press-release/weapon-grave-of-suontaka-hattula-in-finland-reveals-flexible-gender-roles-in-the

Also the grave was found like some fifty years ago while they were digging for a water piping project. Not like they were tearing up burial sites on purpose.

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https://www.livescience.com/medieval-grave-non-binary-warrior-finland.html

Another possibility is that the person was a shaman or magic user. Surviving texts from the time suggest that some shamans and magic users were men who wore women's clothes because the Norse god Odin "was associated with feminine magic," the research team wrote.

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Yes that is also a possibility.

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I mean, even if we accept this theory it's fairly obvious that this person was an exception and not indicative of some sort of cultural norm, otherwise the find would not be unusual

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