Board 8 > Leonhart Plays The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sal Manella is supposed to look gross, and they succeeded! I'll take that over someone like Mike Meekins or Cammy Meele, where they're so obviously cartoonish that they feel out of place. It's a bit jarring for me.

There are few AA characters I actively hate, and Sal isn't one of them. I can appreciate the role most of them serve.

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I believe Cammy is less cartoonish than April. Like Cammy does have those white mouth sprites, but that's something characters like Maya and Cody have. Meanwhile, April's face completely morphs from standard AA sexy girl into something from Adult Swim. She has her bubble thing but that's along the line of Adrian's infinite breaking glasses and it's rather mild.
Mike is horrible though and I don't know why they decided that he should recur in two more games.
Still more preferable than Sal though. Only way I'd accept a character like Sal would be if they made them a culprit which, oddly enough, I don't think they've done.
Maybe AAI's Lance but he's not as bad as the likes of Sal and Hotti.
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The difference with Cammy is that she looks out of place all the time. She never looks "normal." It's okay for the characters to go over the top and look ridiculous sometimes, but it shouldn't be a constant "this looks off" feeling.

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I seem to recall her looking somewhat normal once she starts to close in on her breakdown, at least in the face once she drops the goofy grin.

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She's fine once she reveals her real self. And prior to that she wasn't really more weird than other wacky characters. Hell, Larry, one of the first characters you see and most recurring minor characters had continuous sprites where he had sharp teeth, literal puppy eyes with waterfall tears, giant blush stickers, and his mouth never being normal outside of his default pose.
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Cammy isn't weird as a character. She's kind of nothing, really. She just looks weird, and that ends up being her legacy because she doesn't do anything else to stand out as a character. Someone like Sal Manella at least has the 1337 speak gimmick that people remember.

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I don't think anyone here has brought up her character yet, just her looks and sprites.
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Well yeah, that's the point. There isn't much to say about her as a character, so the focus becomes either she has giant boobs with a lot of cleavage or she just has a weird design.

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That's true. I honestly like her more than Vasquez though because her final confession does show how scared she was and that it wasn't a planned murder actually making her slightly sympathetic. When you think about it, it's almost the exact situation as Pavlova from GAA1-2 except her smuggling is less sympathetic than being a runaway from an abusive group. Meanwhile, despite her killing being self-defense, Vasquez still decides to frame Will Powers, tries to outright murder two people later, and constantly insults everyone on the stand, even those on her side like Edgeworth (which is presented as one of the reasons he turns on her). Even Cammy wasn't as much of an asshole. All of this makes Phoenix personally proving she killed in self-defense so unsatisfying and anti-climatic to me. And she gets a lame breakdown for it.
Props to Cammy for doing all the dirty work herself while Vasquez and Pavlova had to use accomplices too.
Also Cammy gets a goofy theme that could potentially mislead you while Vasquez is obviously the culprit when you see her.

tldr Cammy>Vasquez.
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Nah, Cammy is kind of lame, as is almost everything about E1-2.

The clouds, they tell me nothing.

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anyway back to G2-4, I think I'd be down for a GAA prequel in the style of AAI featuring Holmes/Mikotoba, and you could include Jigoku and Genshin as well, obviously

no chance it happens but it'd be great

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Leonhart4 posted...

Nah, Cammy is kind of lame, as is almost everything about E1-2.

The clouds, they tell me nothing.

She is down there, but so is 1-3, and Vasquez even more, if it wasn't for nostalgia.
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Nah, 1-3 has a lot more good moments going for it than E1-2, with or without nostalgia. Gumshoe and Edgeworth saving the day alone puts it over E1-2.

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Moving airplane setting>Filming studio setting
A link to DL-6 with Edgey getting seismophobia and blacking out, having Edgeworth do a 1-2 Phoenix/Ryunosuke and defending himself, having Franziska as an assistant, having the actual culprit as the assistant>Gumshoe and Edgeworth moment.
But I'll admit, it's a bit of a trivial difference since their rankings are so similar in both the links I posted.

Cammy is higher than Vasquez in the AA character rankdown though
https://www.reddit.com/r/AARankdown/comments/hz0fhd/cammy_meele/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AARankdown/comments/hf7cb6/dee_vasquez/
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Cammy is never the assistant. And no, none of those things are as good as those 1-3 moments. You've made them sound more impressive than they actually are. Edgeworth randomly blacking out or having two super easy testimonies under Rhoda's accusation is not even remotely in the same category as Edgeworth saving the day at the expense of victory or Gumshoe saving you from the mafia.

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The point is that neither of those are really unique in the series and they don't make up for the tediousness of the previous investigations while Edgeworth defending himself and the culprit following you around is unique. While 1-3's main positive is doing many elements like assistants, plot twists, a sudden save, prosecutors helping you etc. first, I'm not giving points for that and I'm judging as if they were standalones released at the same time. I mean, E1-2 also had a moment where Franziska comes through but nobody cares because it's been done so many times already.
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GiftedACIII posted...

Moving airplane setting>Filming studio setting
A link to DL-6 with Edgey getting seismophobia and blacking out, having Edgeworth do a 1-2 Phoenix/Ryunosuke and defending himself, having Franziska as an assistant, having the actual culprit as the assistant>Gumshoe and Edgeworth moment.
But I'll admit, it's a bit of a trivial difference since their rankings are so similar in both the links I posted.

Cammy is higher than Vasquez in the AA character rankdown though
https://www.reddit.com/r/AARankdown/comments/hz0fhd/cammy_meele/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AARankdown/comments/hf7cb6/dee_vasquez/

What is up with these rankings you keep posting? Do you really think it's the overall fanbase's opinion that Roger Retinz is the fifth best AA character of all time?
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Ah yes, we have some more references to The Red-Headed League, and much more blatant this time around, with Holmes actually dyeing his hair red (naturally, he isn't fooled by this scam in the story). The exact details are different here, of course, but the league turns out to be a scam in both cases.

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GiftedACIII posted...

I mean, E1-2 also had a moment where Franziska comes through but nobody cares because it's been done so many times already.

No, nobody cares because it wasn't nearly as dramatic of a moment. She pulled pictures off of a broken cell phone camera. Not quite in the same league as possibly literally saving Phoenix and Maya's lives. Again, you're overinflating how big these things actually are.

Just being unique doesn't make E1-2 a good case. It's not a good case. 1-3 doesn't just get points for doing things "first." It gets points for doing them well. E1-2 does very little well compared to other cases.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

What is up with these rankings you keep posting? Do you really think it's the overall fanbase's opinion that Roger Retinz is the fifth best AA character of all time?

It's obviously not anywhere close to exact but it does give a slight indication to the general feel of what others think. I mean, all you and him have are just your personal anecdotes anyway.
And tbf, I do believe Roger is generally considered the best filler villain among the overall fanbase.
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GiftedACIII posted...

It's obviously not anywhere close to exact but it does give a slight indication to the general feel of what others think. I mean, all you and him have are just your personal anecdotes anyway.
And tbf, I do believe Roger is generally considered the best filler villain among the overall fanbase.

I mean, that entire list is literally personal anecdotes.

And no, he isn't. I love the guy, but he's not considered that by the fanbase.

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LeonhartFour posted...

No, nobody cares because it wasn't nearly as dramatic of a moment. She pulled pictures off of a broken cell phone camera. Not quite in the same league as possibly literally saving Phoenix and Maya's lives. Again, you're overinflating how big these things actually are.

Just being unique doesn't make E1-2 a good case. It's not a good case. 1-3 doesn't just get points for doing things "first." It gets points for doing them well. E1-2 does very little well compared to other cases.

How things are done well are influenced by nostalgia. If E1-3 was my first 3rd case I'd probably be more impressed with it than by 1-3 too because it had those "plot twists", it had those shocking moments like Blue Badger coming up and smashing Edgeworth, and Edgeworth suddenly getting rescued by a girl who turns out to be your assistant. It's all perspective. It says a lot when 1-3 was my first third case and I consider it mediocre on retrospect. But I do remember feeling excited for having an assistant for the first time, having lying witnesses who aren't related to the culprit for the first time. But that's what they are, first times. After doing a replay of the games out of order, 1-3 just doesn't hold up.

LeonhartFour posted...

And no, he isn't. I love the guy, but he's not considered that by the fanbase.

Who do you think is more liked?
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GiftedACIII posted...

How things are done well are influenced by nostalgia.

if you're going to dismiss any positive thoughts about 1-3 as nostalgia because you personally do not like it then this conversation serves no purpose

if AAI was the first game the series does not still exist, it just is not as good of a game as PW1 (or any game in the series except AJ) and that would not change if it came first

GiftedACIII posted...

Who do you think is more liked?

Several, but if you want me to name the most popular, it's Luke Atmey and I doubt it's particularly close.

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Ace Attorney rankdown is a combination of a game show and a popularity contest. 10 rankers will be chosen to sort a list of 180 Ace Attorney characters going from #180 to #1, with #1 being the highest spot.

such a definitive source
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LeonhartFour posted...

if you're going to dismiss any positive thoughts about 1-3 as nostalgia because you personally do not like it then this conversation serves no purpose

if AAI was the first game the series does not still exist, it just is not as good of a game as PW1 (or any game in the series except AJ) and that would not change if it came first

Several, but if you want me to name the most popular, it's Luke Atmey and I doubt it's particularly close.

...Honestly, are you just basing this off an old B8 poll or something? Or maybe just yourself? I've just noticed you called 3-2 the best non-epic case in another topic and think 5-2 is better than 6-2 (lol wtf) 6-2 is seen as the best second case and it's not even close. I won't deny Luke Atmey is popular but Retinz being more popular than him isn't a surprise.

And I am starting to think you're someone who's very nostalgia influenced and probably someone who puts the trilogy on a pedestal. AA1 is overall a rather weak game and its main appeal comes from being the perfect entry due to its snack sized cases and lack of deeper plotlines or mechanics. Nobody who plays AA1 after another AA game is putting it as a top 3 though.
th3l3fty posted...

such a definitive source

It's not supposed to be.
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I'm basing this off of observing B8 and the general fanbase for the last 15 years. It's possible I'm wrong about some of my observations and the fanbase has shifted in recent years, but I do try to pay attention to these things.

You're also trying to conflate my personal opinions with what I think the fanbase believes (making some false assumptions about me in the process, I should add), as well as continuing to use the lazy argument of blaming my tastes on nostalgia, for some reason.

So yeah, good talk.

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it's interesting to act like your opinions are some sort of unassailable consensus when they aren't even supported by anyone

Leonhart4 posted...

I'm basing this off of observing B8 and the general fanbase for the last 15 years. It's possible I'm wrong about some of my observations and the fanbase has shifted in recent years, but I do try to pay attention to these things.

You're also trying to conflate my personal opinions with what I think the fanbase believes (making some false assumptions about me in the process, I should add), as well as continuing to use the lazy argument of blaming my tastes on nostalgia, for some reason.

So yeah, good talk.

General fanbase, like where? I've mainly been basing it on more casual sites like reddit, tumblr, twitter, youtube, tvtropes, the game boards on here, and court-records so if you're basing it off of more hardcore sites, I can understand that, since they're likely more inclined towards the trilogy.
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The argument that "if E1-3 was your first third case you would probably think about it more fondly" is just bunk. The writing in the first Edgeworth game is bad. The first PW game is basic/bare bones/simple, but the writing throughout is objectively better than anything in E1.

Also "6-2 is seen as the best second case and it's not even close." CITATION NEEDED. That's 3-2 all day.

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colliding posted...

Also "6-2 is seen as the best second case and it's not even close." CITATION NEEDED.

his observations make me think he gleans all his AA opinions from the Spirit of Justice board because he seems to think the fanbase thinks everything SoJ is the best

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It's kind of cool to be able to sit in on a Holmes interview with one of his clients. It really felt like a scene from one of the stories.

Also, this is the first time they've even made an indirect reference to Mrs. Hudson, the landlady, which kinda surprises me, now that I think about it. I guess there was no reason to make a sprite of her if she isn't going to be involved in the game, but I figured Holmes would at least mention her name or something.

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colliding posted...

The argument that "if E1-3 was your first third case you would probably think about it more fondly" is just bunk. The writing in the first Edgeworth game is bad. The first PW game is basic/bare bones/simple, but the writing throughout is objectively better than anything in E1.

Also "6-2 is seen as the best second case and it's not even close." CITATION NEEDED. That's 3-2 all day.

LeonhartFour posted...

his observations make me think he gleans all his AA opinions from the Spirit of Justice board because he seems to think the fanbase thinks everything SoJ is the best

My aforementioned case ranking threads.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/ir9wax/updated_ace_attorney_cases_from_worst_to_best/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/180648-phoenix-wright-ace-attorney-spirit-of-justice/74458007
https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/6zq9yt/the_poll_results_for_best_sympathetic_culprit_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/pauq6m/what_is_the_best_case_2_in_the_main_series/
Where have I said anything else about SoJ being the best? I acknowledged that SoJ has fallen from the third spot recently.
You're honestly just confirming my suspicions you're trilogy purists with nostalgia goggles on.
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ah, I have a different opinion than you, that means your opinion is wrong

congrats on disproving my point by posting a topic from the Spirit of Justice board

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It was the most recent board at the time, and SoJ didn't even do that well there.
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as we all know, the entire AA fanbase is located on Reddit, and anyone who prefers the original trilogy doesn't count as a real fan
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Definitely more of an indicator than this board. Leon was the one who insisted that Resolve being better than AA1 was a hot take and that AA1 consistently ranks in the top 3, something that is objectively not true, besides maybe this board, which I'm not even sure about. And you're more than fine to prefer the original trilogy. But putting it on a pedestal means you're biased and influenced by nostalgia.
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yes anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of being unbiased and can't see as clearly as you do, you've made your point

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I think you're projecting here. You're the one that's trying to force your opinion that 1-3 is an amazing case that doesn't deserve its 3rd case syndrome reputation, that AA1 is consistently a top 3 game, and that nothing comes close to 3-2 when it comes to popular opinion of 2nd cases, all of which I've provided evidence that they aren't true.
And all are coincidentally trilogy cases.
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GiftedACIII posted...

I think you're projecting here.

pot, kettle, as the rest of your post proves

the one who's trying to force opinions is you, because all I've said is that I love 1-3, and you had to dig through Reddit and other boards to try to prove that no, 1-3 is crap and everyone agrees with you

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LeonhartFour posted...

pot, kettle, as the rest of your post proves

the one who's trying to force opinions is you, because all I've said is that I love 1-3, and you had to dig through Reddit and other boards to try to prove that no, 1-3 is crap and everyone agrees with you

You claimed that Resolve being a top 3 game is a hot take and that AA1 was consistently a top 3 game, both things that looking at the rankings and polls of the biggest AA fandom congregates can disprove. Maybe this wouldn't have happened if I didn't try to explain why AA1 isn't consistently in the top tier, being that its first 3 cases are widely considered to not be that strong and you needed to let me know that people are wrong about 1-3.
And you also made a claim that Luke Atmey was the most popular filler villain and it's not close, something you have no evidence of.
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The only one saying people are "wrong" is you. This conversation could've ended 50 posts ago if you didn't insist on trying to prove me wrong.

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Leonhart4 posted...

The only one saying people are "wrong" is you. This conversation could've ended 50 posts ago if you didn't insist on trying to prove me wrong.

Where have I used the word wrong in this topic? The only thing I've been discounting are your claims on the fanbase. Your personal opinions I haven't touched. I've outright been saying they're fair. You're the one that wants to insist they're right.
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Except this conversation has lasted as long as it has because you couldn't tolerate that I think 1-3 is really good

I have never said anyone other than me shares that opinion nor do I care if they do. You're the one running to fan polls, not me.

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Once again you're projecting. You can't tolerate the idea that I don't care for 1-3. Maybe you should reread this topic. There have been numerous times where I was simply responding to others on their new reasoning and you had to try to counter me each time. And the thing that really set you off was when I put in my opinion that I think E1-2 is better than 1-3. I think that's where it started actually since the discussion was rather civil prior to that but after is when you starting getting snappy so you really didn't like the idea of E1-2 being better than 1-3.
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Let's just get it out of the way right now. I can say I sincerely respect your opinion of really liking 1-3.
Can you say you sincerely respect my opinion of thinking E1-2 is better than 1-3?
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I actually don't care if you think E1-2 is better than 1-3. I was actually trying to have a discussion with you there.

You lost me when all you were countering with was "you're blinded by nostalgia," the laziest possible argument because it's all projection and nothing can prove or disprove it, and you felt like you had to post links to fan polls a dozen times as if none of us saw them before.

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Anyway, I apologize to everyone for letting this topic get derailed in this way. I will not acknowledge this again in the new topic.

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