Current Events > Oh, so Hollow Knights map sucks.....

(+) Yeah! (+)

DipDipDiver posted...

Then stop playing the game I guess, at this point you just seem to be whining about it

Tbf if it was good i would continue playing it so you arnt wrong.

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I have my complaints with Hollow Knight - mostly how it doesn't quite know when to quit with some of its challenges - but the map system was great. Forced me to use my brain to remember where I've been, and buying the map in each area felt like a genuine accomplishment / relief.

Spoiler alert: TC has a habit of trolling over popular games.

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At first the map feature bugged me, but then I started to appreciate how dangerous it made exploring unknown areas, especially when I had a lot of currency saved up. It really added to the creepiness factor because I never knew what was coming up.

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Hollow Knight is literally one of the best games of the past decade

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soulunison2 posted...

if the game is too hard for you just say it lol

General movement isnt fun and um you just run around practically the whole game. I wont ever know how hard it is if literally moving around is annoying.

Its weird to bring up soul games in a literal metroid/vania discussion. So yeah i think they suck and dont play them.

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averagejoel posted...

Hollow Knight is literally one of the best games of the past decade

Agreed

masterpug53 posted...

I have my complaints with Hollow Knight - mostly how it doesn't quite know when to quit with some of its challenges - but the map system was great. Forced me to use my brain to remember where I've been, and buying the map in each area felt like a genuine accomplishment / relief.

Spoiler alert: TC has a habit of trolling over popular games.

Its perfect: at least try it
-The map sucks
Your trolling cause its popular!


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Hey look he's doing it right now lol

Lairen posted...

Its perfect: at least try it
-The map sucks
Your trolling cause its popular!

the map doesn't suck just because you don't like it

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Imagine spending your day on stuff like this.

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DipDipDiver posted...

Hey look he's doing it right now lol

Its fine to just dismiss the criticisms cause it gets harder to defend choices of the game but enjoyment of said choices is always subjective.

The very beginning just doesnt seem very fun. There's not enough new abilities early enough and the items you do find fail to escalate the game or create the burning desire to play on. As the confusing map and game world gets bigger, enthusiasm fades as you wander around aimlessly, dreading backtracking rather than relishing it.

Im glad to try it but ill leave it at that. Theres just too many games in this style to waste time on one im not enjoying.

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Lairen posted...

Theres just too many games in this style to waste time on one im not enjoying.

Look into La Mulana. You're going to get dead all the damn time, but it's actually fun being awful at it.

CyricZ posted...

Imagine spending your day on stuff like this.

I spend tons of time trying many games and i enjoy pointing out everything i dont like as well as like to find games i do enjoy.

This game was suggested and i tried it and now i know. If theres a Hollow Knight 2 i can confidently ignore it.

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Lairen posted...

Its fine to just dismiss the criticisms cause it gets harder to defend choices of the game but enjoyment of said choices is always subjective.

The very beginning just doesnt seem very fun. There's not enough new abilities early enough and the items you do find fail to escalate the game or create the burning desire to play on. As the confusing map and game world gets bigger, enthusiasm fades as you wander around aimlessly, dreading backtracking rather than relishing it.

Im glad to try it but ill leave it at that. Theres just too many games in this style to waste time on one im not enjoying.

Fair enough, everything isn't for everybody

The map itself is fine, both in the general design and the general system of filling it in.

The compass part just feels like pedantry though.

As for the game itself, the beginning is the worst part imo. Very slow burn of a game before stuff really starts opening up and you start getting fun abilities. Ended up putting 45ish hours into it, very hefty for a Metroidvania (perhaps a bit too hefty). Great game in the end, but I think I prefer the Ori and Guacamelee games as far as modern indie Metroidvanias go.

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I'm currently playing it for a second playthrough almost immediately after beating it the first time. I almost never do that for video games.

Also, HK is one of those few games where on your second time, you realize just how good you have gotten. I look at the things I used to struggle with that I breeze through now and it's a sense of accomplishment.

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DeathVelvien posted...

The map itself is fine, both in the general design and the general system of filling it in.

The compass part just feels like pedantry though.

As for the game itself, the beginning is the worst part imo. Very slow burn of a game before stuff really starts opening up and you start getting fun abilities. Ended up putting 45ish hours into it, very hefty for a Metroidvania (perhaps a bit too hefty). Great game in the end, but I think I prefer the Ori and Guacamelee games as far as modern indie Metroidvanias go.

See? This is my dilemma. Ive playes games i l loved that the beginnings sucked. Many times i just had to play so many hours and then something happened then all of a sudden it was good.

Dragons Dogma, for example, i think the beginning and for many hours this game sucks but you get to a point where your gear, the story, your abilities and even traversing the world get much better to the point of now the game is fun. Even the starting of the story sucks but i love the games endings. The DLC is solid as well.

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Lairen posted...

Tbf if it was good i would continue playing it so you arnt wrong.

Tbfit is, objectively, goodit just isnt for you and that is okay. Move on and play something you enjoy.

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

Tbfit is, objectively, goodit just isnt for you and that is okay. Move on and play something you enjoy.

But why is it good though? So far its the literal most basic metroidvania to date. The graphics, setting and music are extremely basic. The mechanics are extremely basic. The story is as well for even the main is nameless and silent. And the map is literally the worst map of any of this genre. This could have easily been made for last gen.

Literally, so far, SotN is leagues better with everything i listed being significantly better.

In this entire topic im not even seeing compelling reasons why the game is good at all.

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Lairen posted...

But why is it good though? So far its the literal most basic metroidvania to date.

Because you've barely played it?

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How would some of you people have survived playing games in the dark ages. We used to have to walk up-hill both ways to buy the newest gaming magazine that had a map for the game. Or even more basic, draw our own. Trying to navigate Metroid or Castlevania 2 was rough, but you learned the game and map by playing.

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loafy013 posted...

How would some of you people have survived playing games in the dark ages. We used to have to walk up-hill both ways to buy the newest gaming magazine that had a map for the game. Or even more basic, draw our own. Trying to navigate Metroid or Castlevania 2 was rough, but you learned the game and map by playing.

They wernt metroidvanias and im sure they were on par with whats out there. Im comparing a ps4 game to one of the original games of a sub genre and it seems extremely lacking next to it while everyone says its very good with little reason.

I bring up the map because its a significant step backwards. And even then you are in a very boring cave where everything looks similar as well.

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That and the Switch input lag kinda ruined the game for me and are huge reasons I cant get into it. Im sure its a good game but holy shit those issues make me wanna play something else

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Lairen posted...

Trying to navigate Metroid or Castlevania 2 was rough, but you learned the game and map by playing.

They wernt metroidvanias and im sure they were on par with whats out there.

Huh?

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Lairen posted...

I bring up the map because its a significant step backwards. And even then you are in a very boring cave where everything looks similar as well.

it isn't a step backwards. you just don't like it. please don't conflate them

there's also ton of variety to the environment, and... hmmm... I don't think most of it is in caves?

there are definitely a few caves and cave-like areas, but they're all very distinct from each other

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Of all the possible things to dislike about the game, this seems like the pettiest complaint I've ever seen. The lack of map functionality is solved within like an hour. It's initial absence lends to the ambience. Half of Metroidvanias is just stumbling around in the first place, so it's not like immediate access to the map in each area is really that useful until you've filled it out in the first place.

Pretty sure there's an upgrade that shows you on the map?

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Cookie Bag posted...

Pretty sure there's an upgrade that shows you on the map?

yeah, a charm called Wayward Compass

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The map definitely is not for everyone. If you have a poor sense of direction I could see it being a struggle, especially in the Forgotten Crossroads. This isnt a git gud thing, some people are just better navigating without a map than others. But it makes for a more immersive experience and its so rewarding to find the paper trail to finally track down Cornifer and be able to buy the map of the area.

Also TC if you die, youre meant to hunt down your Shade and kill it to get your Geo and Soul Vessel restored la Soulsborne games.

And the music is gorgeous, not sure where those criticisms are stemming from.

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My biggest complaint is the placement of the respawn points. I dont like trekking a ways before I can even practice gitting gud on a boss. I'm not good. I died on most bosses at least 10x each. I'd have preferred them right before a boss room.

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averagejoel posted...

it isn't a step backwards. you just don't like it. please don't conflate them

there's also ton of variety to the environment, and... hmmm... I don't think most of it is in caves?

there are definitely a few caves and cave-like areas, but they're all very distinct from each other

No, having to buy items to fill in the map, fill it in by going to places off the map to go back to a save spot to fill in the map, if you bought the items, not even pausing the game when checking the map and even showing up on the map being an equipable item (that you have to be at a save spot to equip) are significant steps back compared to even super metroid. If you have fun with these step backs is subjective.

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I wouldn't really consider it a step back when it is an entirely intentional part of the game's design to do it that way

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eston posted...

I wouldn't really consider it a step back when it is an entirely intentional part of the game's design to do it that way

Its a weird decision and odd imo, obviously for anyone to prefer this versus its magically done for you. Its pointless busy work and literally makes the map worse and a chore out the gate.

Again, even comparing it to Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night this game seems like a really minimalistic take on those games in everything it does besides making the map a chore, something that was a non-issue in all other -vanias.

These seemingly harsh or "trolling" critiques come from when the general consensus its its one of the greatest games of a generation. Just calling it goods fine by me but if its going to be so hyped then im heavily critiquing it. Youre free to disagree or ignore me or theres a literal hide topic function.

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Lairen posted...

Its a weird decision and odd imo, obviously for anyone to prefer this versus its magically done for you. Its pointless busy work and literally makes the map worse and a chore out the gate.

Again, even comparing it to Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night this game seems like a really minimalistic take on those games in everything it does besides making the map a chore, something that was a non-issue in all other -vanias.

These seemingly harsh or "trolling" critiques come from when the general consensus its its one of the greatest games of a generation. Just calling it goods fine by me but if its going to be so hyped then im heavily critiquing it. Youre free to disagree or ignore me or theres a literal hide topic function.

your problem is that you don't like it. it is fine to not like a specific mechanic in a game. it is not fine to suggest that that mechanic is a step backwards because you don't like it

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averagejoel posted...

your problem is that you don't like it. it is fine to not like a specific mechanic in a game. it is not fine to suggest that that mechanic is a step backwards because you don't like it

Thats my opinion that what was once a simple non issue is now busy work and a pointless chore that in no way improves the experience is a step backwards.

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Yeah that was annoying and Im no stranger to being mapless as a Souls fan.

Personally I dont think the game is a great Soulslike or a great MV. Its a pretty game with dark atmosphere which I loved but I just didnt love itit was kind of a slog to get through imo

Blasphemous and Salt & Sanctuary are both more fun Soulsvanias IMO.

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My pettiest complaint is the dash mechanic, I hate how you cant do a short dash or cancel out of a dash with a jump.

Lairen posted...

Thats my opinion that what was once a simple non issue is now busy work and a pointless chore that in no way improves the experience is a step backwards.

it's not pointless, and it does improve the experience

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averagejoel posted...

it's not pointless, and it does improve the experience

The point is removing a basic feature and making you have to do something to accomplish it now. A step back.

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Lairen posted...

The point is removing a basic feature and making you have to do something to accomplish it now. A step back.

it integrates the map into the story and makes it more immersive. it improves the experience in that way

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averagejoel posted...

it integrates the map into the story and makes it more immersive. it improves the experience in that way

The story is weak as hell so far. Im early so i wont double down on this but i am comparing it to many metroids or metroidvanias and is weak compared to those.

And if im comparing it to Bloodstained, imo, that game destroys Hollow Knight. At least the beginning but theres plenty of story in BS versus HKs main is nameless. Thats pathetic. Hollow Knight already looks like poo to me but Miriam looks great with a good personality and story....

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Lairen posted...

The story is weak as hell so far.

It does the Dark Souls thing where you discover the story as you go along. I wasn't a fan of it at first either, but it all comes together into something fairly cool.

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Teh_Dr_Phil posted...

Why the map is the way it is makes literal narrative sense in-game, lol.

Once again, gameplay and story segregation exists for a reason.

Should be clear that I'm not saying HK is a bad game. Overall it's a very good game, but - especially around the map - it does have a few very bad design decisions.

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Lairen posted...

The story is weak as hell so far. Im early so i wont double down on this but i am comparing it to many metroids or metroidvanias and is weak compared to those.

they're pretty opaque, but the story and lore are definitely not weak. they can be hard to understand though, because they're relayed to you... pretty much exclusively through poetry

And if im comparing it to Bloodstained, imo, that game destroys Hollow Knight. At least the beginning but theres plenty of story in BS versus HKs main is nameless. Thats pathetic. Hollow Knight already looks like poo to me but Miriam looks great with a good personality and story....

again, that's a matter of you not liking the graphics style. which is fine. but I found the hand-drawn aesthetic really beautiful, and saying it doesn't have a "good personality" is just blatantly wrong

there's also explanation for why the Knight is silent and nameless

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averagejoel posted...

they're pretty opaque, but the story and lore are definitely not weak. they can be hard to understand though, because they're relayed to you... pretty much exclusively through poetry

again, that's a matter of you not liking the graphics style. which is fine. but I found the hand-drawn aesthetic really beautiful, and saying it doesn't have a "good personality" is just blatantly wrong

there's also explanation for why the Knight is silent and nameless

Miriams personality being better than a nameless silent protag isnt subjective.

BS Kickstarter got almost 100x more money than HKs. Im starting to get the picture here.

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Lairen posted...

Miriams personality being better than a nameless silent protag isnt subjective.

yes it is. it's just a very different way of telling a story

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averagejoel posted...

yes it is. it's just a very different way of telling a story

Miriam having a name and personality and talking makes her personality subjectively better.

Miriams looks great. HK looks unfinished.

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Lairen posted...

Mariam having a name and personality and talking makes her personality subjectively better.

so, again, your point is that you like the protagonist more. that's fine. but, again, it is not fine to frame it as though that's actually a strike against the one that you don't like as much

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Lairen posted...

Miriams looks great. HK looks unfinished.

can you elaborate on how Hollow Knight looks unfinished?

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averagejoel posted...

so, again, your point is that you like the protagonist more. that's fine. but, again, it is not fine to frame it as though that's actually a strike against the one that you don't like as much

Its a definite strike. i just explained why.

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