Current Events > TIL: The Pathologic devs accidentally destroyed the Darksouls Gatekeepers.

(+) Yeah! (+)

dave_is_slick posted...

Do the circle jerkers not realize they have yet to provide a solid reason against this?

They know.

They just won't admit it.

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Cemith posted...

I'm dogshit at PVP, but it's still fun. I saw a video the other day and someone ran a conjuring build with stuff like lightning bow and Lifehunt Scythe and I really want to try it.

Internet connection it too dookie though.

spells in 1v1 are... a questionable choice beyond like weapon buffs.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Again this is such a bad point. Putting aside the fact I've addressed it about 19 times now and no one has responded to it.

Going "The Lord Works in mysterious ways" isn't a point or a discussion. It's a lazy evasion of bad game design and a really bad excuse to shut up legitimate criticism.

The gatekeeping of the Dark Souls fandom is toxic and pointless as hell. It was cultivated intentionally by the devs.

There is no objective benefit to be against player choice, you can't provide one. Just yell "The devs said so! So shut up!" despite the fact the devs are playing to that very mentality and there is zero benefit to it

Lol there is no mystery reason for why Fromsoft doesn't implement difficulty options.
https://www.vgr.com/fromsoftware-explains-why-its-games-dont-have-difficulty-levels/
There is the reason and no its not because they want to create a toxic fandom lol stop making shit up. These devs are just people with a specific artistic vision, theres nothing malicious about it so stop acting like it is.

to 500!

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DarthAragorn posted...

Nah

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Look, if you want to accept video games as art, then you have to make room for artistic intent by the developers. If they feel that a player won't truly understand that vision unless they struggle through their original game, then fine.

Personally I think the Souls series is shit and I don't give enough fucks about their edgelord story or world to sit through hours of trial and error bullshit mechanics. But I'm not gonna ask them to change that to suit my taste. Let them do what they want.

It's like not liking modern art or country music. Not every piece of music, or picture, or book, or game, is for everyone.

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ZMythos posted...

Look, if you want to accept video games as art, then you have to make room for artistic intent by the developers. If they feel that a player won't truly understand that vision unless they struggle through their game, then fine.

Personally I think the Souls series is shit and I don't give enough fucks about their edgelord story or world to sit through hours of trial and error bullshit mechanics. But I'm not gonna ask them to change that to suit my taste. Let them do what they want.

It's like not liking modern art or country music. Not every piece of music, or picture, or book, or game, is for everyone.

I can tell you didn't watch the video

The Pathologic 2 devs had artistic intent (a whole of a fucking lot more than Dark Souls) and didn't envision gamers using modes like this.

Put they put the option in anyway so many many more people could enjoy the game, despite it not being their vision.

This hurt absolutley no one and brought joy to many. It had a net zero effect on the "art" of the game.

And your only defense (the only defense in the entire topic) is anger and "NO THIS JUST ISN'T FOR YOU!" without explanation beyond toxicity.

There is no rational argument in favor in not giving players options and the mods/trainers for Dark Souls demonstrate how easy it would be implement.

Hell your flat out unwillingess to even address the points says it all. The gatekeeping is intense and embarrasing

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TerrifyingRei posted...

spells in 1v1 are... a questionable choice beyond like weapon buffs.

Right, I hear that part. I think it just looks fun. Scythe and Bow are hardly substitutes for the real thing but it still looks fun.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Not true. They openly made it hard and harsh to counter the popularity of Oblivion because they knew a generic RPG would fail by comparison. This isn't some secret, it was the entire marketing strategy. They never wanted good game design, they wanted to appeal to a niche toxic fanbase. And they did

You're really spinning out here and I think you should pack up. I get that arguing is your gimmick, but you're just repeating unfounded lies now. It's boring.

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Lol and once again the only argument is "shut up and go away!" no actual response to any of the 79 points raised, didn't even watch the video.

Says it all.

Insults, evasions, fallacies, lies and toxcitiy. That's all the gatekeepers have. And it's bad.

Player choice is good and hurts no one

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I'm not gatekeeping anything >_>

You're trying to quantify artistic appreciation. What kind of metric are we using to measure the experience two different players have with a game?

A difficult game gives rise to a different emotional state while playing versus a casual or relaxing game. How can you say that they give the same artistic fulfillment when emotions play such a big part in how you process art?

"More people enjoyed the game" can be a measurable claim, of course. But "More people enjoyed the game in the same way" is asinine. With that logic I could spoil a book, movie, or game to somebody and it would be fine because they'll get to see it anyway.

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And because everyone's talking about it so much, Miyazaki said that there's no difficulty settings because he wanted everyone to have the same baseline experience. That, and the fact that the game isn't about kicking your ass, it's about the giving you the sense of accomplishment of conquering a difficult challenge.

https://twinfinite.net/2018/06/from-softwares-hidetaka-miyazaki-talks-about-why-souls-games-dont-have-difficulty-settings/

Also this whole point is moot because the games do have difficulty settings and it's called summoning.

Hell, even Bloodborne's Insight system basically functions as a soft difficulty meter. Higher Insight = lower resistances.

https://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Insight

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ZMythos posted...

You're trying to quantify artistic appreciation. What kind of metric are we using to measure the experience two different players have with a game?

None
So it's great to have player options so different players can enjoy the game

A difficult game gives rise to a different emotional state while playing versus a casual or relaxing game. How can you say that they give the same artistic fulfillment when emotions play such a big part in how you process art?

Agreed. In fact this is absolutely 100% more true of Pathologic than Dark Souls. The sliders fundamentally change the entire point, experience and emotions of the game and its' reveal.

And still hurt absolutely no one, did nothing to harm the artistic vision and more people got to have an experience playing the game

Everyone won, nobody lost, no toxicity.

"More people enjoyed the game" can be a measurable claim, of course. But "More people enjoyed the game in the same way" is asinine.

Why?

With that logic I could spoil a book, movie, or game to somebody and it would be fine because they'll get to see it anyway.

This is a false equivlance. What does spoiling a plot have to do with game sliders?

A better analogy would be a book that a really really werid toxic community demand you can only allowed to read if you hang upside down and smash your balls with coconuts over and over because the author intends it.

Then someone asks "Can't I just read the book while not doing that?" and you scream at him for hours and hours but then can't explain why.

No one is taking that experience away from you. You are taking a different experience away from others for literally no reason.

It's an objectively bad and very very silly thing.

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Cemith posted...

Right, I hear that part. I think it just looks fun. Scythe and Bow are hardly substitutes for the real thing but it still looks fun.

i guess that's true.

my favourite DS2 pvp build involves dual caestus.

it's suboptimal at best

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Adding an easy mode is an easy(heh) out for what they were going for with Dark Souls.
Cemith posted...

it's about the giving you the sense of accomplishment of conquering a difficult challenge.

If I die once there's nothing stopping me to switching to easy instead of learning anything

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I still don't think that the Souls franchise has a large pool of untapped people who would play it, but don't because there's no difficulty toggle on the menu.

It's almost always activists on Twitter claiming its an issue.

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refmon posted...

Adding an easy mode is an easy(heh) out for what they were going for with Dark Souls.

If I die once there's nothing stopping me to switching to easy instead of learning anything

So... You get it? If you switch to easy you don't learn anything, which is the whole point of the game. That's the idea of the baseline experience that HM was talking about I think. You overcome the same challenge everyone else did, and the camaraderie that creates is just really special imo.

That's kind of what makes the game so special is that kind of adversity and the besting of seemingly insurmountable challenge. I am adamantly aware that this probably comes off as gatekeeping, emotional nonsense but the emotional attachment really is the focal point of the experience. If you can get that same experience on easy, then I'm really jealous. I really am, but for most people like myself, the sense of community from having one is palpable.

This is what they (the Soulsborne community) means when people in it bluster about "Dark Souls ruined other games for me" it's because overcoming that challenge is really engaging to certain types of people, not because other games are bad. Not many games give me that same feeling of childlike wonder and achievement that I got from most games as a child, and all I want is for other people to experience that same feeling. I guess sure that makes me one of those gatekeeper nuts but I just adore those games and if there's a chance I could share that same experience with someone else that means everything in the world to me. I think changing the difficulty would take that opportunity away.

This is all just my opinion though, you're free to call me a loon.

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These games are two completely different types of hard though.

There is nothing mechanically difficult about Pathologic, it's 100% about game knowledge.

The difficulty people complain about in the Souls games is entirely mechanical. They want less enemies and want them to die faster, so they don't have to learn the controls properly.

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refmon posted...

Adding an easy mode is an easy(heh) out for what they were going for with Dark Souls.

If I die once there's nothing stopping me to switching to easy instead of learning anything

So?

DeadBankerDream posted...

I still don't think that the Souls franchise has a large pool of untapped people who would play it, but don't because there's no difficulty toggle on the menu.

It's almost always activists on Twitter claiming its an issue.

Then explain all the people calling for it and the immense popularity of mods and trainers that alter the game.

DocDelicious posted...

These games are two completely different types of hard though.

There is nothing mechanically difficult about Pathologic, it's 100% about game knowledge.

The difficulty people complain about in the Souls games is entirely mechanical. They want less enemies and want them to die faster, so they don't have to learn the controls properly.

This just isn't true, in fact some of the sliders are things that mods directly mimic

Even ignoring your lying, it still doesn't explain why the OPTION that doesn't effect you in any way is a bad thing

It's just more evasions and lies

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Every game has an intended difficulty, and some even explicitly point out which one it is on the difficulty screen. I've always found the "artistic vision" excuse to be pretty flimsy tbqh, because you can provide your artistic vision while also giving people options

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eston posted...

Every game has an intended difficulty, and some even explicitly point out which one it is on the difficulty screen. I've always found the "artistic vision" excuse to be pretty flimsy tbqh, because you can provide your artistic vision while also giving people options

Agreed

No one can actually explain how Dark Souls artistic vision is effected in any way. How come other games have not had their artistic vision effected

Nor how mods/volume/brightess options don't effect their art.

It's very akin to: "Gay marriage is wrong because if gay people got married it would ruin my marriage."

"How?"
"God said so."
"Ok you're not actually explaining the things you say and they make no sense."
"Shut up! Fuck you! You're wrong! GO AWAY! You're obviously gay and just jeaous of us!"

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If I ever want easy mode I just summon helpers for bosses, it's built right into the game

I guess that's a moot point when it comes to Sekiro? Idk if it had any multiplayer because I didn't play that one.

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I thought I was pro gay marriage, but Unfair makes an excellent point. I'll need to rethink my stance.

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Also the idea of providing a "baseline experience" doesn't really hold up when players aren't all playing your game for the same reason. I enjoyed DS for the exploration but not the combat. Like, I was thoroughly impressed with the world design and really enjoyed seeing how things connected, but I hated having to repeat boss fights over and over until I could "git gud." That's just not what I play games for

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And fromsoft will continue to not give a shit!

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Case and point

Case in point

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eston posted...

Also the idea of providing a "baseline experience" doesn't really hold up when players aren't all playing your game for the same reason. I enjoyed DS for the exploration but not the combat. Like, I was thoroughly impressed with the world design and really enjoyed seeing how things connected, but I hated having to repeat boss fights over and over until I could "git gud." That's just not what I play games for

And no matter what you do, you will have 0 effect on everyone else's experience

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UnfairRepresent posted...

It's also a bullshit argument to go "Everyone wants things catered to them!" especially while you're arguing the game has to cater to you and not have player options.

Not the case. I couldn't even get into the series until my 3rd game attempt. But the 1st 2 attempts I didn't think "They should of made this game easier for me". I thought "Damn, this is frustrating. Maybe it's not for me"

So, yeah. You're just projecting onto me. I also blame myself for not doing research when I buy games that don't have modes that challege me enough when I wanted a challenge. Not everyone is whiney when something doesn't cater to them


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Lost_All_Senses posted...

So, yeah. You're just projecting onto me. I also blame myself for not doing research when I buy games that don't have modes that challege me enough when I wanted a challenge. Not everyone is whiney when something doesn't cater to them

UR is fragile because someone told him to "Git Gud" and so he writes a thesis on why Dark Souls is failing as a game for no easy mode lol

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Lost_All_Senses posted...

Not the case. I couldn't even get into the series until my 3rd game attempt. But the 1st 2 attempts I didn't think "They should of made this game easier for me". I thought "Damn, this is frustrating. Maybe it's not for me"

And yet it was for you.

So, yeah. You're just projecting onto me. I also blame myself for not doing research when I buy games that don't have modes that challege me enough when I wanted a challenge. Not everyone is whiney when something doesn't cater to them

You're literally whining right now at the thought of Dark Souls not catering to you. For reasons you are unable to actually explain

It's so hypocritical and lazy

Here are like 130 posts in and not one single Dark Souls fan has even watched the video in question because they massively fear it and not one can actually respond or retort to any points raised.

Just insults, lies, fallacies and evasions over and over with disturbing similarities to how fundamentalist religions "argue" their case.

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Nothing you said actually negates my post. It just tries to ignore it. I have no interest in trying to explain things to you better than I already did.

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I feel like the Darksouls gatekeepers are like squidward from that crane game episode of spongebob.

They suck at the game and keep sucking until they finally get 1 win in pvp or beat the game and then it all goes to their head. They change their profile pic to Artorias and call everyone a casual and spam "git gud".

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Lost_All_Senses posted...

I have no interest in trying to explain things

Yup, we noticed.

Might as well be nearly every response to this topic really.

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Lost_All_Senses posted...

Nothing you said actually negates my post. It just tries to ignore it. I have no interest in trying to explain things to you better than I already did.

This whole topic has been one massive deflection from TC. It's all made funnier when s/he can't get "Case in point" right even when pointed out to them. Clearly this is a person who will only listen to themselves and people who agree with them.

It's still entertaining tho so I suggest you grab some popcorn and stick around.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Might as well be nearly every response to this topic really.

Lol. You're a brick wall and don't even know it.

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Seitar posted...

This whole topic has been one massive deflection from TC.

WTF have I have deflected from?

I've responded to literally everything, even though 98% of it is just the same "Ugh guh ur suck and are gay!" nonsense not actually saying anything on topic.

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Nobody said unfair is gay.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I've responded to literally everything, even though 98% of it is just the same "Ugh guh ur suck and are gay!" nonsense not actually saying anything on topic.

Yes, you are clearly right about that.

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fuck, this topic again?

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Case and point. You couldn't say what I allegedly deflected from

Because there is nothing.

The gatekeepers have no points, only toxicity.

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It's case in point.

If you're going to repeat a saying over and over, at least get it right.

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meralonne posted...

It's case in point.

If you're going to repeat a saying over and over, at least get it right.

Don't. It's more fun seeing TC fill out her/his clownshoes.

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I mean, I enjoy watching clownshoes antics on CE from time to time, but let's give the guy a break. Three pages of it is enough, no?

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Again

Zero points. Zero retorts. Just evasions, insults, lies etc.

You have nothing.

Game options don't harm anyone and help many. There is zero reason to oppose them

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Your premise is terrible. Case in point, I have not argued against the option of an easy mode.

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meralonne posted...

I mean, I enjoy watching clownshoes antics on CE from time to time, but let's give the guy a break. Three pages of it is enough, no?

True, I just figured we should let TC have it's tantrum.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Again

Zero points. Zero retorts. Just evasions, insults, lies etc.

You have nothing.

Game options don't harm anyone and help many. There is zero reason to oppose them

Bruh, you won. You beat the DS community. I'll call From software and ask them to change the game on your behalf.

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Still waiting for a single retort or point...

Or one single Dark Souls gatekeeper who isn't so cowardly that they cannot watch the video.

I mean if you're so sure of your views, why are you so terrified?

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Still waiting for a single retort or point...

Or one single Dark Souls gatekeeper who isn't so cowardly that they cannot watch the video.

I mean if you're so sure of your views, why are you so terrified?

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who wants to come fight Old Dragonslayer and Dragonrider in Heides tower with me?

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