Current Events > Diet/workout experts - does protein really make a difference?

(+) Yeah! (+)

LostForest posted...

Coffee is good for you though, why would you cut it? I didn't drink coffee and started because of the health benefits lol.

When I completely cut caffeine I had a lot more energy at all hours (rather than some spikes and lows) and could wake up at any time of the morning no problem, and fall asleep in 2 minutes

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LostForest posted...

Coffee is good for you though, why would you cut it? I didn't drink coffee and started because of the health benefits lol.

I wanted to kick all caffeine for a while and run on my own internal effort, motivation and focus. It helped tremendously because it allowed me to start eating healthier portion controlled breakfasts that gave me stable energy and filled me for most of the day and allowed me to maintain my caloric deficit, as opposed to just a coffee or two in the morning with hours of not eating, and then hours later acting on hunger + cravings and overeating junk food with no portion control. Not relying on caffeine was also really good for managing sleep and stress. My sleep greatly improved when I cut caffeine and reintroduced it to limited occasional single servings in the morning. I still enjoy coffee today every few days, but it's often never a standalone thing and loaded with fat + sugar like most people get it. It's there to be enjoyed slowly and be a supplement to either my breakfast or my pre-workout. Every once in a while I'll order or make my own latte or frappuccino as well.

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I think you guys are misinterpreting me saying "drinking coffee" with caffeine addiction lol. When I said coffee I meant like, literally just a cup of black coffee with little to no sugar once a day, because it's delicious, and not because you can't keep your eyes awake without it.

Like in my case, I started drinking it after I get home from work as a tasty afternoon ritual, not a vice. I really don't understand how people get so addicted to it to the point they can't function without 6 cups a day.

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LostForest posted...

I think you guys are misinterpreting me saying "drinking coffee" with caffeine addiction.

Like, when I said coffee I meant like, literally just a cup of black coffee with little to no sugar once a day, because it's delicious, and not because you can't keep your eyes awake without it.

Once a day is still quite a lot of caffeine, definitely enough for me to notice a sharp decline in that "24 hr steady energy" feeling

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Njolk posted...

Once a day is still quite a lot of caffeine, definitely enough for me to notice a sharp decline in that "24 hr steady energy" feeling

Agreed with this. When I just cut out caffeine completely it was a huge difference, and I was never addicted; just a cup a day kind of guy.

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LostForest posted...

I think you guys are misinterpreting me saying "drinking coffee" with caffeine addiction lol. When I said coffee I meant like, literally just a cup of black coffee with little to no sugar once a day, because it's delicious, and not because you can't keep your eyes awake without it.

Like in my case, I started drinking it after I get home from work as a tasty afternoon ritual, not a vice. I really don't understand how people get so addicted to it to the point they can't function without 6 cups a day.

Like I said, every once in a while is fine.

But when you get to the point where have it everyday, along with sodas, like I did, it becomes a bad habit that is harder to break, and the caffeine fix every day, even at some lower doses, does indeed screw up your hormone balance, like serotonin and dopamine.

So rather than limit one or the other, I removed it out of the equation entirely. It doesn't work for everyone that way, though. And now I don't really need caffeine at all, but when I do decide to have a coffee or a black/green tea, I can really feel the caffeine working and helping me focus. I don't use it to conceal my fatigue like other people do.

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Ok this is getting silly, lol coffee is fine. If YOU notice caffeine addiction problems for your own particular situation you should take action, but a coffee a day is not considered excessive.

I drink coffee almost everyday, sometimes paired with green tea even. Sometimes I'm lazy or traveling and I don't have any caffeine. No problems whatsoever.

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Pow Pow Punishment posted...

Ok this is getting silly, lol coffee is fine. If YOU notice caffeine addiction problems for your own particular situation you should take action, but a coffee a day is not considered excessive.

I drink coffee almost everyday, sometimes paired with green tea even. Sometimes I'm lazy or traveling and I don't have any caffeine. No problems whatsoever.

No one here said one cup a day was excessive lol

I'm saying, for me personally, coffee and other caffinated drinks were not part of my plan to get healthy. I still enjoy those drinks in moderation, typically only in the morning or for a pre-workout, so that way it doesn't potentially affect my mood or sleep schedule in a negative manner.

For other people, they will deal with it in their own way they choose. Every day, every other day, multiple times a day, etc.

However, the fact remains that caffeine is a stimulant, a tool or substance to help you achieve a heightened degree of neurological or psychological activity, and it does affect your serotonin and dopamine levels. For some people, it's no problem. For others, if ignored, it can lead to some problems being exacerbated by other health or lifestyle habits and choices down the road.

I personally don't need caffeine, I prefer to run on my own energy, but it is nice to have a boost here and there, especially when it comes to performance in the gym.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

No one here said one cup a day was excessive lol

I'm saying, for me personally, coffee and other caffinated drinks were not part of my plan to get healthy. I still enjoy those drinks in moderation, typically only in the morning or for a pre-workout, so that way it doesn't potentially affect my mood or sleep schedule in a negative manner.

For other people, they will deal with it in their own way they choose. Every day, every other day, multiple times a day, etc.

However, the fact remains that caffeine is a stimulant, a tool or substance to help you achieve a heightened degree of neurological or psychological activity, and it does affect your serotonin and dopamine levels. For some people, it's no problem. For others, if ignored, it can lead to some problems being exacerbated by other health or lifestyle habits and choices down the road.

I personally don't need caffeine, I prefer to run on my own energy, but it is nice to have a boost here and there, especially when it comes to performance in the gym.

Right but you keep bringing up caffeine and framing coffee in a negative utilitarian light. I originally only mentioned coffee for health benefits. And then some people drink it for the flavor. And decaf is it's own thing as well. Like, I just feel like you're being a little bit disingenuous by saying it's okay but then also implying that its only purpose is for its drug effect and by default needs to be drunk in moderation.

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What is your guys' opinion about white rice? I believe it's in the same category as white bread. All the nutrients are sucked out of it, so probably not as good as brown rice, right? I've looked it up online and I've heard mixed things about it.

Anyway, I personally love coffee. I seem to have a high tolerance for caffeine in general. By that, I mean that I never really needed caffeine to get through the day. If I drink coffee for months and then stop, I may get like a very mild headache, but when I deal with that for a couple hours I don't have any other side effects. Similar to lostforest, I strictly drink coffee for the taste. However I also carry decaf just in case I feel like I've consumed too much caffeine.

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Perascamin posted...

If you read any post in this topic read mine.

When you're trying to build muscle, you need .8g of protein per pound of bodyweight MAX for optimal muscle growth. You can have more protein than that but studies don't show there being any benefit to consuming more than that in a single day.

So for someone at your weight, you would need 112g of protein per day in order to build and retain muscle.

1400 calories is awful low, TC. Are you a man? Because if you were a woman, 1400 would be a good weight loss target for the average woman, but men are built different.

You probably need to be eating more like 1650-1750 calories a day and that would probably be near the lowest amount you need and still lose 1lb-1.5lb/week. Men can deal with a ~1000 calorie deficit/day and still be pretty well off nutritionally, but that's for extreme dieting/cutting. It's not recommended as something for regular people to do.

You can be much happier and lose weight more slowly with a ~500-700 calorie deficit.

If you want abs, you need to go buy a tape measure for your body, a scale, and start tracking your calories and weight inside a book or app every single day. Also do lots of cardio. Yes resistance training is great but it's not burning as many calories as cardio.

Doesn't have to be running! Do an elliptical. Stair climber. Incline walking on the treadmill. REGULAR ASS WALKING IT DOESNT MATTER just get your heart rate up for 150 minutes a week MINIMUM and you will really start to lose excess weight.

Bumpimg just to keep this in mind

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pojr posted...

What is your guys' opinion about white rice? I believe it's in the same category as white bread. All the nutrients are sucked out of it, so probably not as good as brown rice, right? I've looked it up online and I've heard mixed things about it.

Like Xeno talked about, the american diet is really low in fiber, and fiber makes you feel full. White rice has had the fiber (and some vitamins) removed.

Imagine eating 5 apples. You'd feel uncomfortably full because that's a lot of fiber. If you put 5 apples into a juicer and made an apple smoothie (removing all the fiber) youd only have about 1 glass of apple smoothie, and you could drink it in 30 seconds

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LostForest posted...

Right but you keep bringing up caffeine and framing coffee in a negative utilitarian light. I originally only mentioned coffee for health benefits. And then some people drink it for the flavor. And decaf is it's own thing as well. Like, I just feel like you're being a little bit disingenuous by saying it's okay but then also implying that its only purpose is for its drug effect and by default needs to be drunk in moderation.

Coffee has some antioxidants and other therapeutic benefits, but it also has downsides that people need to be aware of. The caffeine is obviously something to be conscious about, but so is the acidity of it, as well as people not being able to have a bowel movement without it.

That's why I say to have it with moderation, or not every day. Use it as something to give you a boost or a treat, not as a part of your daily ritual.

superman 2000 posted...

Bumpimg just to keep this in mind

112g is twice as much as what TC needs. Nobody needs that much protein. 56g a day is the recommended for over 90% of the population, which the higher end is skewed towards teens and adolescents, athletes and those who are sick or physically injured.

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Njolk posted...

Like Xeno talked about, the american diet is really low in fiber, and fiber makes you feel full. White rice has had the fiber (and some vitamins) removed.

Imagine eating 5 apples. You'd feel uncomfortably full because that's a lot of fiber. If you put 5 apples into a juicer and made an apple smoothie (removing all the fiber) youd only have about 1 glass of apple smoothie, and you could drink it in 30 seconds

I'm going to aim for more fiber then. Question about the apple juice example. How does blending apples remove fiber? How does that work? You're just cutting up pieces in the smaller pieces, wouldn't all the nutrition and everything stay with it? If I'm moving to a different house and I decide to consolidate boxes, the contents in the boxes are going to be the same. Why would the Apple be different?

Xenozoa425 posted...

Coffee has some antioxidants and other therapeutic benefits, but it also has downsides that people need to be aware of. The caffeine is obviously something to be conscious about, but so is the acidity of it, as well as people not being able to have a bowel movement without it.

That's why I say to have it with moderation, or not every day. Use it as something to give you a boost or a treat, not as a part of your daily ritual.

112g is twice as much as what TC needs. Nobody needs that much protein. 56g a day is the recommended for over 90% of the population, which the higher end is skewed towards teens and adolescents, athletes, those with a large frame or lean mass, and those who are sick or physically injured.

Good post. Here's a good question I forgot to ask. Do you keep track of your nutritional needs per day? Like "Fuck, I need 53g of fiber...let me eat some apples. Now I'm there for the day". Do you write it down on paper? Has there ever been a day where maybe you were a little bit short?

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pojr posted...

I'm going to aim for more fiber then. Question about the apple juice example. How does blending apples remove fiber? How does that work? You're just cutting up pieces in the smaller pieces, wouldn't all the nutrition and everything stay with it? If I'm moving to a different house and I decide to consolidate boxes, the contents in the boxes are going to be the same. Why would the Apple be different?

Juicers spit out the pulp/skin and just make juice, you're thinking of a blender

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Xenozoa425 posted...

No one here said one cup a day was excessive lol

You literally juxtaposed every once in awhile being fine as opposed to daily, clearly implying the latter as not being fine.

It is fine.

superman 2000 posted...

If you want abs, you need to go buy a tape measure for your body, a scale, and start tracking your calories and weight inside a book or app every single day.

You don't "need" to do any of that. Some find tracking helpful, others (me) don't.

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pojr posted...

Good post. Here's a good question I forgot to ask. Do you keep track of your nutritional needs per day? Like "Fuck, I need 53g of fiber...let me eat some apples. Now I'm there for the day". Do you write it down on paper? Has there ever been a day where maybe you were a little bit short?

I don't do any calorie or macro counting except for trying to avoid saturated fat and keep it as low as possible. Some days may have some macros be slightly over or short, but that's fine. My diet will typically give me around 40g of fiber per day. 70% of my calories come from mostly complex carbs, with some simple carbs here and there. Eating all the complex carbs like rice, beans, fruits and veggies gives me all the protein I need and provides lots of fiber with low fat.

The body has all your fat stores for fat. A vegan like me has way more than plenty of glycogen in the reserves, and 90g of protein mostly from the entire lining of your upper digestive tract gets recycled everyday, so it's not like missing 10g worth will ruin your plans. It's virtually impossible to design a diet that is sufficient in calories but deficient in protein, even a plant-based one. We're very adaptable organic machines. It's a truly impressive feat of nature.

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Njolk posted...

Juicers spit out the pulp/skin and just make juice, you're thinking of a blender

you're right. for some reason i mixed up the two lol. thanks for clarifying.

Xenozoa425 posted...

I don't do any calorie or macro counting except for trying to avoid saturated fat and keep it as low as possible. Some days may have some macros be slightly over or short, but that's fine. My diet will typically give me around 40g of fiber per day. 70% of my calories come from mostly complex carbs, with some simple carbs here and there. Eating all the complex carbs like rice, beans, fruits and veggies gives me all the protein I need and provides lots of fiber with low fat.

The body has all your fat stores for fat. A vegan like me has way more than plenty of glycogen in the reserves, and 90g of protein mostly from the entire lining of your upper digestive tract gets recycled everyday, so it's not like missing 10g worth will ruin your plans. It's virtually impossible to design a diet that is sufficient in calories but deficient in protein, even a plant-based one. We're very adaptable organic machines. It's a truly impressive feat of nature.

i respect that you're able to do this without needing to keep track. and it's impressive that you still know how much protein/fiber/etc you're getting despite not keeping track of it.

as someone that eats for pleasure, i needed to keep track of calories to make sure i wasnt overdoing it. and i might need to do the same for other areas of nutrition.

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Njolk posted...

Imagine eating 5 apples. You'd feel uncomfortably full because that's a lot of fiber. If you put 5 apples into a juicer and made an apple smoothie (removing all the fiber) youd only have about 1 glass of apple smoothie, and you could drink it in 30 seconds

Wait, why does blending remove the fiber?


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Blending doesn't "remove" the fiber, it just breaks it down greatly so that way the nutrients and sugars of the fruit are more readily digestible for you and the gut microbes. Fiber is like having a built-in organic water filter that slows the process down and allows everything to be collected and picked up more efficiently. With blending, it's less work your body has to do, as it's the equivalent of chewing food thoroughly before swallowing. It's convenient, but it also will spike blood sugar levels more quickly.

Juicing will remove the fiber, though.

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The thing about nutrition is there are a few general things that any "health focused diet" will agree on and then there are a few million things they all disagree on. And then even the things they all agree on can actually differ for people if they have certain health issues. No one size fits all.

Protein is important but most people overstate the amount needed. Itll matter whether you want just optimal health or if you are going for muscle/body building. Take average male. He isnt going to really need mote than 50-60g a day for optimal health. Now if you do strength training then you could double that for good results. But people who say 2g/lb of body weight are being ridiculous. For me 1.5g/kg of body weight produced good results. I would go up to 2/kg of body weight if I got to a higher intensity level (intermediate to advanced lifting as opposed to beginner and lower intermediate). But you really need to find a baseline and then experiment. Id suggest starting at a lower level like 1.5g/kg and adjust overtime based on what you find works for you. Start too high and youll find yourself either consuming tons of powders or obsessing about your food intake down to every gram of food which isnt substainable if you care about a health lifestyle since stress is going to negatively impact you.

I would suggest focus on what you should eat and not what you cant. That is, dont make a rule like no pizza or no sugar. Instead make goals of what you should intake. Like 600g of veggies a day or X amount of seeds/nuts. It is more positive and prevents thr "I cant have X so now I want it". You can have that cookie, but lets see how much you actually want it after you had like 6table spoons of various seeds, 600g of veggied, 2 cups of berries, etc. Its all a mental thing but it worked much better for me than when I was approaching food with the mindset that I cannot eat this or that.

Oh but ultimately anything you read, including my advice, always seek out to see if there are studies supporting it. Too many people see some "nutrition expert" on youtube spouting some dumb fad and suddenly think they know everything about nutrition.

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Needing a ton of protein is one of the biggest exaggerations and myths of the fitness industry

Countless studies have shown that 0.82g/lb is the upper limit of protein needed daily and that's for people who exercise rigorously and basically do it for a living. That's a ~114g of protein daily for a 140 lb male. 100g is enough for the vast majority of people to get gains.

Consistency, training and most importantly time, matter far more than trying to create the perfect diet by painstakingly trying to track every calorie, macro and micro nutrient. Though i'm biased because I hate dieting

Last few days I've tried various ways of making oatmeal.

Today I tried making oatmeal with blueberries, cinnamon and vanilla extract. Found it on a website, so I decided to try it for myself. It smells great, but doesn't taste like anything. The blueberries definitely carry the whole meal. The website says I should use Unsweetened Almond Milk but I used water, so that's one way I differed from the original recipe.

I plan on trying other variations, I haven't tried the one that Xenozoa425 suggested yet.

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Slayerblade11 posted...

Needing a ton of protein is one of the biggest exaggerations and myths of the fitness industry

Countless studies have shown that 0.82g/lb is the upper limit of protein needed daily and that's for people who exercise rigorously and basically do it for a living. That's a ~114g of protein daily for a 140 lb male. 100g is enough for the vast majority of people to get gains.

Consistency, training and most importantly time, matter far more than trying to create the perfect diet by painstakingly trying to track every calorie, macro and micro nutrient. Though i'm biased because I hate dieting

I think it stems from

1) Most people undereat in proteins, if muscle gain is their goal and they aren't thinking about their diet. Take the average 140lb male and look at his diet, he's probably eating 60grams of protein. Which is fine for general living but eventually you're gonna start spinning your wheels at the gym.

I'm 175lb and if I don't get in at least a couple of whey schoops a day I undershoot it, and I eat chicken or beef or fish most days.
2) there's not apparently any disadvantage to overshooting it a bit

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I think unsweetened almond milk in general is a good choice. Only 30 calories in a cup of it and more protein and less sugar than regular milk. You might also want to find a zero calorie sweetener that you like. Some people are more sensitive to them, but splenda/sucralose and stevia both taste good to me and don't give me headaches or anything. Just switching out table sugar for those can save you a lot of calories. :v

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DuranOfForcena posted...

it's okay to add a bit of brown sugar to your oatmeal in order to make it taste better. that's not going to totally wreck your diet. i was adding brown sugar and butter to my oatmeal most days for a long while there, even well into when i was intermittent fasting and trying to eat healthier. eventually you get used to the base flavor and can start adding less and less, until you add none at all. i dropped the butter pretty quick, but tbh i still sometimes use brown sugar in my oatmeal. not all the time though.

and only using water is definitely going to make it not taste all that great. something like that almond milk will be pretty good. personally i like to use a 2:1 ratio of water to nonfat dairy milk. makes it somewhat creamy without adding too many calories.

blueberry cinnamon should be a pretty good flavor profile though. i've never used the vanilla, but that seems like a good idea. i also like to do banana nutmeg. and pumpkin spice. i like to buy the can of pure pumpkin puree, and mix spices into it following the directions on the can for making pumpkin pie filling, except for using only 1/4 of the brown sugar it calls for. it's tasty stuff.

good idea. i only used water because it's easy to put into my kettle and heat up easily. so basically laziness. but i will try almond milk next time. a little brown sugar might be worth trying. when i make oatmeal, i like to heat up the water separately, and then quickly mix it in with the other ingredients - just because i generally hate sogginess. this works well with the instant oatmeal packets, but maybe this isn't recommended for real oatmeal.

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Water will make the oatmeal taste bland, you should definitely use a milk of your choice. One or two tsp of sugar is fine, it's only 5-10 calories and is better than most of the alternatives out there. A little bit of sugar is not going to harm you, especially when a lot of complex carbs and fiber is involved and slows down the speed of absorption. I personally prefer soy and almond milks.

pinky0926 posted...

I think it stems from

1) Most people undereat in proteins, if muscle gain is their goal and they aren't thinking about their diet. Take the average 140lb male and look at his diet, he's probably eating 60grams of protein. Which is fine for general living but eventually you're gonna start spinning your wheels at the gym.

I'm 175lb and if I don't get in at least a couple of whey schoops a day I undershoot it, and I eat chicken or beef or fish most days.

60g is more than enough, with a huge margin of safety, for the fitness needs of a 140lb male. No one should really be eating more protein than 0.8g/kg of mass, or 0.34g/lb of weight. In all honesty, all the protein anyone will ever need can be gotten from carb sources, I say this as a vegan that is able to put on lean mass and easily maintain, even without working out for a few weeks or not eating tons of protein every day.

2) there's not apparently any disadvantage to overshooting it a bit

There's no storage bank for protein in the body like there is for fat and carbs. Eating more than your body can handle every day will end up hurting your kidneys and put your body in a very slow diet-induced state of metabolic acidosis.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

Water will make the oatmeal taste bland, you should definitely use a milk of your choice. One or two tsp of sugar is fine, it's only 5-10 calories and is better than most of the alternatives out there. A little bit of sugar is not going to harm you, especially when a lot of complex carbs and fiber is involved and slows down the speed of absorption. I personally prefer soy and almond milks.

60g is more than enough, with a huge margin of safety, for the fitness needs of a 140lb male. No one should really be eating more protein than 0.8g/kg of mass, or 0.34g/lb of weight. In all honesty, all the protein anyone will ever need can be gotten from carb sources, I say this as a vegan that is able to put on lean mass and easily maintain, even without working out for a few weeks or not eating tons of protein every day.

There's no storage bank for protein in the body like there is for fat and carbs. Eating more than your body can handle every day will end up hurting your kidneys and put your body in a very slow diet-induced state of metabolic acidosis.

you probably shouldnt listen to this guy if your goal is to get strong


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Turtlebread posted...

you probably shouldnt listen to this guy if your goal is to get strong

As opposed to the person that is guzzling down astronomical amounts of protein?

The most important macro is carbs, not protein.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

As opposed to the person that is guzzling down astronomical amounts of protein?

The most important macro is carbs, not protein.

theres just too much evidence that contradicts you dude

eating more than 0.6g of protein per kg of bodyweight isnt going to do anything to your kidneys, in fact you can safely eat up to 2g/kg

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26797090/


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Xenozoa425 posted...

60g is more than enough, with a huge margin of safety, for the fitness needs of a 140lb male. No one should really be eating more protein than 0.8g/kg of mass, or 0.34g/lb of weight. In all honesty, all the protein anyone will ever need can be gotten from carb sources, I say this as a vegan that is able to put on lean mass and easily maintain, even without working out for a few weeks or not eating tons of protein every day.

Hang on, were we talking about the basic fitness needs of an average 140lb male, or (your words) the "upper limit of protein needed daily [for athletic people]"? Those two things have two different answers (0.34g per lb and 0.8g per lb respectively).

The scenario I presented was someone exercising who wants to do their best to put on muscle. Which leads to the next bit:

There's no storage bank for protein in the body like there is for fat and carbs. Eating more than your body can handle every day will end up hurting your kidneys and put your body in a very slow diet-induced state of metabolic acidosis.

I'm not sure about this bit . Skip to 1m45s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g82MXEJC3NI&t=105s

Though he does highlight the point that this rule of thumb falls apart for overfat/undertrained people.

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Turtlebread posted...

theres just too much evidence that contradicts you dude

eating more than 0.6g of protein per kg of bodyweight isnt going to do anything to your kidneys, in fact you can safely eat up to 2g/kg

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26797090/

A guy earlier in the thread already posted a link that proved my point about adequate (low) protein vs high protein.

Njolk posted...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29405780/

Here is a scientific study that proves this guy wrong. 0.9g/kg a day (more than he recommended) group put on 1/4th as much muscle as the 2g/kg group

Xenozoa425 posted...

If anything, the study perfectly proves my point. Both groups lost fat mass and gained lean muscle. The LP group still gained over 1lb of lean mass and lost roughly 2.5lbs of fat. Even for a lower amount closer to what is recommended by health authorities, that is an impressive feat for a female in just 8 weeks. And at the end, the article states there were no differences in strength improvements between the two groups. There's no real benefit to eating a huge excess of protein.

Getting a fit body should not be a race or a contest. You shouldn't be rushing and trying to achieve the best results as quickly as possible. The best results always come with steady progress. Cutting corners is not a good idea. Quality matters over quantity for the short-term and long-term. Most of us are not competitive professional athletes, we don't need ungodly amounts of food and have time to train every single day. We should be more modest, yet strict, with our diets and regiments.

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I wasn't arguing that consistent training is better than intense optimised training over a short term, though (we agree there). Just discussing the academics of where that rule of thumb comes from and how so many studies give different figures on it.

If they all arrive at different numbers, it's not unreasonable to conclude that it's a safer bet to aim at the higher end of that range *provided there's no adverse risk". So I guess that's the sticking point, is there an adverse risk? ^That guy in the vid suggests not.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

A guy earlier in the thread already posted a link that proved my point about adequate (low) protein vs high protein.

the LP group didnt get much leaner, while the HP group lost fat mass and put on more lean mass

from this study alone there is obviously a benefit here for some people

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Xenozoa425 posted...

As opposed to the person that is guzzling down astronomical amounts of protein?

The most important macro is carbs, not protein.

You literally can't stay lean as possible if you don't work out for weeks on end lmao

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Perascamin posted...

You literally can't stay lean as possible if you don't work out for weeks on end lmao

And if you've got through the stage of newbie gains, a person can only gain 3-6Lbs of muscle a year if they're consistent and train hard every day naturally. No, you are not putting on lean mass. You're getting fatter than last time with water weight and mistaking it for muscle.

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pinky0926 posted...

Hang on, were we talking about the basic fitness needs of an average 140lb male, or (your words) the "upper limit of protein needed daily [for athletic people]"? Those two things have two different answers (0.34g per lb and 0.8g per lb respectively).

The scenario I presented was someone exercising who wants to do their best to put on muscle. Which leads to the next bit:

I'm not sure about this bit . Skip to 1m45s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g82MXEJC3NI&t=105s

Though he does highlight the point that this rule of thumb falls apart for overfat/undertrained people.

I stated 0.34g per pound or 0.8g per kilogram. I actually made a small mistake, it should be 0.36g per pound or 0.8g per kilogram. Both will give you roughly the same number, it just saves you the trouble of converting to/from the metric system if you are unfamiliar with it.

0.36 x 140lbs = 50.4g protein daily
140lbs / 2.205 metric conversion = 63.5kg
0.8 x 63.5kg = 50.8g protein daily

That's all anyone at that weight really needs. More than that is unnecessary. Once your weight starts increasing, then you can add a tiny bit more protein.

pinky0926 posted...

I wasn't arguing that consistent training is better than intense optimised training over a short term, though (we agree there). Just discussing the academics of where that rule of thumb comes from and how so many studies give different figures on it.

If they all arrive at different numbers, it's not unreasonable to conclude that it's a safer bet to aim at the higher end of that range *provided there's no adverse risk". So I guess that's the sticking point, is there an adverse risk? ^That guy in the vid suggests not.

That post was in response to the other poster and I didn't edit their quote in until you already posted. But I'll post this video as a counter to yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NW32vLq340

Turtlebread posted...

the LP group didnt get much leaner, while the HP group lost fat mass and put on more lean mass

from this study alone there is obviously a benefit here for some people

You didn't read the end of the study nor my post then. Both groups lost fat mass and gained lean muscle. Both groups still had the same relative level of strength after 8 weeks, even though one group ate far less protein than the other. If you can get the same or similar results without having to eat that much protein, then you don't need to eat that much protein.

Working out is a matter of time, patience, discipline and consistency. You will get more clean energy for your workouts, as well as all the other beneficial micronutrients like fiber and antioxidants, if you replace all those extra protein calories with carbs. Even some athletes aren't really healthy because they are so worried about macros, but ignore micronutrients like magnesium, B12, selenium, folate, antioxidants, etc.

Perascamin posted...

You literally can't stay lean as possible if you don't work out for weeks on end lmao

I worked out for the first time today in about roughly 3 weeks and was able to lift the same weight for the same amount of sets and reps as I did last time.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

You didn't read the end of the study nor my post then. Both groups lost fat mass and gained lean muscle. Both groups still had the same relative level of strength after 8 weeks, even though one group ate far less protein than the other. If you can get the same or similar results without having to eat that much protein, then you don't need to eat that much protein.

It wasnt the same result lol.

In aspiring female physique athletes, a higher protein diet is superior to a lower protein diet in terms of increasing fat-free mass in conjunction with a resistance training program.

Fat mass didnt decrease at all for the LP group. Its right there in the abstract.


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Deleted and reposted because I kept wanting to add things I forgot lol.

Turtlebread posted...

It wasnt the same result lol.

In aspiring female physique athletes, a higher protein diet is superior to a lower protein diet in terms of increasing fat-free mass in conjunction with a resistance training program.

Fat mass didnt decrease at all for the LP group. Its right there in the abstract.

I said "to get the same or similar results" as the HP group.

The LP group went from an average of 13.2% body fat to 12.5%, while also gaining 1.3lbs of lean mass. For a 134lb female at 5'5" in just 8 weeks from doing strength training on an LP diet, that is a pretty impressive feat. And I'll say it again, the strength stayed the same across both the LP and HP group. That means that you can still get the same bodybuilding results on a LP diet as a HP diet, it's just a matter of time and effort. When it comes to proper weight loss or bodybuilding, it's always safer to take a more slow and gradual, than to elicit a sudden and rapid change with a huge amount of protein like that. It's not sustainable for a long-period of time, you physically cannot maintain that degree of muscle mass with a chronically high protein intake without the risk of increased chance of endocrine cancers, gastrointestinal cancer, CVD or kidney stones.

In TC's case, he is 140lbs and already somewhat accustomed to fitness, and he is trying to build muscle and burn a tiny bit of fat as well. Based on that study, if you apply it to a male subject that generally has a faster set of metabolic factors, the LP diet is the perfect diet that will allow him to slowly make progress in the short-term while being able to sustain those changes long-term without drastic changes. What took 8 weeks for a 134lb female might take TC just 6 weeks, and that's still just on a LP diet.

Eating a HP diet is not a shortcut to automatically getting a better body, especially when most sedentary people are already eating more protein than they already need, and we have those people on high protein diets that want to start getting fit take in even more protein. The obsession that the general population has with protein, including several posters ITT, is ridiculous. It goes directly against basic common sense and sports nutrition in general. Protein has the weakest energy output of energy among the three macros, the body has no way to store the excess, and the excess will just end up being converted into carbohydrate anyways. You may as well just do your body a huge favor and skip that metabolic process and just eat more complex carbs, because it does you more good in the long run. None of those expensive protein powers have the pletora of healthful benefits that complex carbs like fruit or beans or quinoa do.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

Deleted and reposted because I kept wanting to add things I forgot lol.

I said "to get the same or similar results" as the HP group.

The LP group went from an average of 13.2% body fat to 12.5%, while also gaining 1.3lbs of lean mass. For a 134lb female at 5'5" in just 8 weeks from doing strength training on an LP diet, that is a pretty impressive feat. And I'll say it again, the strength stayed the same across both the LP and HP group. That means that you can still get the same bodybuilding results on a LP diet as a HP diet, it's just a matter of time and effort. When it comes to proper weight loss or bodybuilding, it's always safer to take a more slow and gradual, than to elicit a sudden and rapid change with a huge amount of protein like that. It's not sustainable for a long-period of time, you physically cannot maintain that degree of muscle mass with a chronically high protein intake without the risk of increased chance of endocrine cancers, gastrointestinal cancer, CVD or kidney stones.

In TC's case, he is 140lbs and already somewhat accustomed to fitness, and he is trying to build muscle and burn a tiny bit of fat as well. Based on that study, if you apply it to a male subject that generally has a faster set of metabolic factors, the LP diet is the perfect diet that will allow him to slowly make progress in the short-term while being able to sustain those changes long-term without drastic changes. What took 8 weeks for a 134lb female might take TC just 6 weeks, and that's still just on a LP diet.

Eating a HP diet is not a shortcut to automatically getting a better body, especially when most sedentary people are already eating more protein than they already need, and we have those people on high protein diets that want to start getting fit take in even more protein. The obsession that the general population has with protein, including several posters ITT, is ridiculous. It goes directly against basic common sense and sports nutrition in general. Protein has the weakest energy output of energy among the three macros, the body has no way to store the excess, and the excess will just end up being converted into carbohydrate anyways. You may as well just do your body a huge favor and skip that metabolic process and just eat more complex carbs, because it does you more good in the long run. None of those expensive protein powers have the pletora of healthful benefits that complex carbs like fruit or beans or quinoa do.

Most protein powders contain creatine though which increases your muscles ability to store energy and thus increase size + output please stop being wrong

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A primary and novel finding of our study is that a high-protein diet (2.5 gkg1day1) significantly increased FFM compared with a lower-protein diet (0.9 gkg1day1) in the cohort of aspiring female physique athletes.

Another important finding from the study was the high-protein group lost a significant amount of fat mass, whereas reductions in the low-protein group were not statistically significant.

and the low protein group was eating 0.9g/kg/day, which according to you is way too much

this study doesnt help your case


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so this morning, i used almond milk instead of water, and used 2 teaspoons of brown sugar.

best one i've made so far, but that isn't saying much. it barely had a taste. is this how oatmeal is supposed to taste? maybe im supposed to get used to it like black coffee.

maybe i don't like oatmeal. i love the packaged stuff, but maybe it's the sweetness I liked and not the actual oatmeal itself lol.

lately i've been eating a lot of chicken, broccoli, blueberries, strawberries, nonfat greek yogurt and white rice. only reason i have white rice is because i bought a shit ton of it before this thread even existed. don't want it to go to waste.

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If you can afford it calorie wise, put a tablespoon of nut butter in your oatmeal. Personally every morning, I make 80g of steel cut oats (2 servings) with water and a dash of salt, and then once it's done put two tbsp of sunflower butter and jam, along with sprinkling of cinnamon, nutmeg, and ginger powder. About 600 calories and very filling. I know this is an overload of information man, but you're doing good.

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yes but, like everything, not in excess

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Turtlebread posted...

A primary and novel finding of our study is that a high-protein diet (2.5 gkg1day1) significantly increased FFM compared with a lower-protein diet (0.9 gkg1day1) in the cohort of aspiring female physique athletes.

Another important finding from the study was the high-protein group lost a significant amount of fat mass, whereas reductions in the low-protein group were not statistically significant.

and the low protein group was eating 0.9g/kg/day, which according to you is way too much

this study doesnt help your case

it doesn't address the strain put on the kidneys

no but that wasnt the point of the study

theres plenty of other studies that do though

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3PiesAndAFork posted...

If you can afford it calorie wise, put a tablespoon of nut butter in your oatmeal. Personally every morning, I make 80g of steel cut oats (2 servings) with water and a dash of salt, and then once it's done put two tbsp of sunflower butter and jam, along with sprinkling of cinnamon, nutmeg, and ginger powder. About 600 calories and very filling. I know this is an overload of information man, but you're doing good.

thanks man, it actually feels good hearing stuff like that. sometimes i dont feel like i'm doing a good job lol. with a said, i will give that a try. i still need to add Xenozoa425's oatmeal recipe to the list of things I try as well. 600 calories is somewhat high, but if it fills me up and is delicious, I don't mind. Especially because I plan on increasing my intake.

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