Current Events > Diet/workout experts - does protein really make a difference?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Pow Pow Punishment posted...

"The findings from our study show the benefits of a diet involving six meals per day, a high % of protein, low % of CHO intake, and low GI-index foods on the body's ability to lose weight while increasing TEM.

Also the 6MAD, HP group ate about 50% the calories from baseline intake; 40% reduced intake at first gate and 25% reduced intake at 2nd. Might've been the macro ratios, might've just been the result of a low caloric intake, might've been the meal timing. Can't conclude anything about meal frequency in general.

In the HP-6 group kcals consumed during day 28 TEM meals decreased by 40.2% (p<.001) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from day 28. In the FGP group kcals consumed during Day 28 TEM meals decreased by 3.7% (not significant) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from Day 28. In the HP-3 group kcals consumed during Day 28 meals increased 3.7% (not significant) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from Day 28.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

you are paying for expensive bubbly piss

If you're pissing out protein you need to get your kidneys checked. Nobody should be pissing out protein.

Excess protein gets converted to glucose to be used as energy, if not used then it gets stored as fat. It does not go from protein to fat nor protein to bladder.

If you're trying to lose fat then you need to be using stored energy(your fat) not ingesting excess carbs for energy. If TC is eating 1400 calories he will not get fat from eating to much protein.

philsov posted...

Also the 6MAD, HP group ate about 50% the calories from baseline intake; 40% reduced intake at first gate and 25% reduced intake at 2nd. Might've been the macro ratios, might've just been the result of a low caloric intake, might've been the meal timing. Can't conclude anything about meal frequency in general.

In the HP-6 group kcals consumed during day 28 TEM meals decreased by 40.2% (p<.001) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from day 28. In the FGP group kcals consumed during Day 28 TEM meals decreased by 3.7% (not significant) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from Day 28. In the HP-3 group kcals consumed during Day 28 meals increased 3.7% (not significant) from baseline testing; and kcals consumed during Day 56 TEM meals decreased by 25% (p<.001) from Day 28.

The calorie reduction after a month in the 6 meals a day group is probably the most significant part because it reflects the effects on satiety that higher meal frequency has. People in the study naturally trended to eating less total calories by eating more often. And THAT has implications for the fact that absolute TEM was higher in the 6 meals-a-day group despite less food being present to convert to energy, which bodes even better for higher meal frequency plans.

Sure, it could be interesting too if kcals were controlled, but that defeats observing the effects on hunger hormones like leptin that different diet plans have.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

"this guy is wrong, he focuses on long-term health over cutting corners for short term results"

uhh, yeah, that certainly is uhhh.... a take

It's not even a matter of cutting corners. No matter how patient you are, you'll never achieve the same results as someone who fully optimizes protein synthesis.

Also, so long as you have a well balanced diet and are getting all the required macro nutrients, you don't have to worry about any risks or health concerns in regards to consuming more than the recommended daily serving of protein.

Most health professionals that criticize excessive protein diets are arguing against fad diets like keto where you use protein as a substitute for necessary macro nutrients as opposed to a supplement, so the risks and health concerns don't necessarily apply here.

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LostForest posted...

@pojr

Dude, 140 is a perfectly healthy weight and like others days, you could definitely up your caloric intake a bit of you're hitting the P90x. I used to weigh 135-140, but when I started strength training a year or yeah ago, I started to gain a little weight, and now I'm 145-150. And you've seen videos of me, you know I'm not fat haha.
(I can relate to like you said, having a little bit of a belly, but once you get into your thirties, that just happens unless you follow a hardcore ab regimen, in my experience)

Have protein shakes. They're fun and taste cool! I could recommend you a good brand on Amazon that doesn't have any artificial sweeteners or bullshit in it

pretty cool, didnt realize you were into fitness. but you're definitely in good shape and you're good with cooking. what protein shake do you use? i bought the aldi brand one but wouldnt mind a better one

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pupeye posted...

If you're pissing out protein you need to get your kidneys checked. Nobody should be pissing out protein.

Excess protein gets converted to glucose to be used as energy, if not used then it gets stored as fat. It does not go from protein to fat nor protein to bladder.

I never said protein turns directly into urine. I said that too much extra protein from supplementing protein powders is just paying for expensive pee. If you ingest too much protein, then the body takes the protein and removes the carbohydrate backbone, which gets converted into glucose and the body uses that for whatever it needs, then the amino group and sulfur from the protein turn into urea and sulfurous acid, which only the kidney can excrete. By eating too much protein, you put a lot of pressure on the kidneys.

And also, because animal proteins are not coupled with natural fibers and phosphates that buffer the low dose acidity, plant proteins are not as harsh on the kidneys over time. So if you do want extra protein, get it from plant sources. Otherwise, high protein diets increase your likelihood of developing kidney stones via metabolic acidosis, which also affects bone health.

If you're trying to lose fat then you need to be using stored energy(your fat) not ingesting excess carbs for energy. If TC is eating 1400 calories he will not get fat from eating to much protein.

No, he will not gain fat from eating too much protein, but there's also no physiological advantage to consuming excess protein. If you want to lose fat, eat less fat. Fat has more than double the calories of carbs. Carbs also have fiber, antioxidants and phytonutrients, proteins and fats do not. Almost all of your food should be coming from carbs, regardless of your age, weight, height, sex or ethnicity.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

i would not throw out the oatmeal. oatmeal is very good for your. complex carbs are good for energizing your workouts and are excellent for satiety.

this is of course assuming you are talking about real steel-cut oatmeal, and not the microwave packet stuff that's loaded with excess sweeteners and preservatives.

I appreciate that you're assuming the best case scenario haha, but no, unfortunately it's the brown maple sugar variant that you find in the packets. Granted, I do use the "lower sugar" variant from aldi. Actually wait, didn't I specify that I use the packet variant? Because I said Maple Brown sugar. They don't make those in the cylinder containers. Plus I said I use three packets.

Anyway when I first started eating less calories, I was using real steel cut oats, but it was a pain in the ass to cook, and 100% of the time I would always get the timing incorrect, and it would never taste right. I just couldn't perfect it. And it just didn't taste that good. I would add fruit to it which would help, but in that case might as well just eat the fruit by itself.

If I were to consider the cylinder container variance of oatmeal, I would probably want to get the quick oats. The reason is because I prefer not to use the microwave. I would rather heat up hot water, and then pour it immediately into the raw oats, and then eat seconds later. I don't like to cook oats in the water like with pasta. The sogginess bothers me.

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pojr posted...

pretty cool, didnt realize you were into fitness. but you're definitely in good shape and you're good with cooking. what protein shake do you use? i bought the aldi brand one but wouldnt mind a better one

I use this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KITQG0A

It's a little pricey, but it's huge and lasts for months. It's unflavored, which is the best part. You can use it in tandem with stuff like fruit juices, drink mixes, and even put it into baked goods! (Protein waffles FTW)

Personally my standard shake is 8 oz water, 1 scoop of the whey protein, and a packet of Carnation Breakfast Chocolate Powder. It's 350 calories, but is a great stand-in for breakfast. Like I said though, you can use whey protein like that in anything. It goes great in stuff like almond milk/dairy milk/etc too.

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Quick oats are fine. I started making overnight oats and I prefer it that way over traditional stovetop or microwave. I like to add vanilla soy milk, ground flax seed, maca powder, blueberries, cinnamon and pumpkin seeds. I use mason jars also.

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50g rolled oats (approx. 1/2 cup)
7g sprouted pumpkin seeds
1 Tbsp flaxseed powder (7g)
1 tsp maca powder (5g)
1/2 cup blueberries (80g)
1 cup vanilla soy milk (8oz or 230mL)

420 calories
13.5g fat (of which there's 1.5g saturated fat) (29% of calories)
61.5g carbohydrate (55% of calories)
12g fiber (over 25% of what you should have in a day)
16.5g protein (16% of calories)

Might be helpful for those who are cutting to be more modest with fat values and remove the one of the seeds, but it's all good stuff.

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do you have to sprout the pumpkin seeds yourself?

How do you have a belly at 5'8" 140 pounds?

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ROOTFayth posted...

do you have to sprout the pumpkin seeds yourself?

Mine are already partially sprouted (and slightly sprinkled with salt too I believe) in the package. I buy them in a bulk bag from Costco. But soaking them overnight in the milk will open them more and boost the nutrients.

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Does anybody here swim? How is swimming 4-5 times a week compared to lifting?

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LightningAce11 posted...

Does anybody here swim? How is swimming 4-5 times a week compared to lifting?

Swimming is a largely cardiovascular exercise, and yes you will get stronger, and bigger to an extent, but eventually once you reach a certain point and you're no longer overloading you're mainly just improving your conditioning and swimming and not so much muscle hypertrophy.

You get stronger with weights through progressive overload.

Like most sports, elite swimmers lift weights to get better at swimming - not the other way around. That said, swimming is an excellent way to improve mobility without taxing your joints. People do swim for physio though.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

@pojr

Quick oats are fine. I started making overnight oats and I prefer it that way over traditional stovetop or microwave. I like to add vanilla soy milk, ground flax seed, maca powder, blueberries, cinnamon and pumpkin seeds. I use mason jars also. Sometimes I also do a 1/4 serving of pea protein or some cocoa powder.

I forget the macros and fiber but I can calculate it when I get home. I know it's at least 500 kcal so it fills you up good.

thanks man, that does make things a little easier. quick oats are perfect for me because i dont like my oats to be submerged in water for too long

honest question, do you enjoy the food you eat? as a fast food lover, seems like most people would regard this food as "ewww". not saying it is, and im sure you have grown a love for this type of food. but im just curious.

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I do genuinely enjoy my food, it's a very satisfying experience to prepare and eat food that is clean, healthy, organic, visually appealing and tasty. I have total control over how everything turns out, and it's way cheaper than going out. It all comes together in a way that ordering from a restaurant or buying pre-made from a convenience spot simply does not have.

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bsp77 posted...

How do you have a belly at 5'8" 140 pounds?

dunno, not a scientist or whatever lol, but i just do. prior to working out, i have almost no muscle whatsoever. nearly vero upper body strength, couldnt do a single pull up. maybe that's why? i dunno, just guessing.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

i cannot agree with all of this more. i cringe at what my eating habits used to be, going to a different fast food place every day and eating junk. i love the healthy foods i prepare and eat now, and i would never ever go back to the way i was eating before.

one of the more recent household favorites i've been making is baked salmon with roasted asparagus and sweet potato fries:

https://i.imgur.com/5juMUYY.jpg

just freakin' look at that! can you honestly look at that and tell me you'd rather have a big mac or chalupa instead? i know i can't.

you dont want to know my answer to that last question lol. well actually i dont like big macs that much, but if you said five guys burger, you wouldnt want to know my answer lol

with that said, not saying what is presented in that picture doesn't look fantastic.

im gonna sound like a lazy ass, but i highly dislike cooking, so thats why i shortcut my food a lot.

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When you put the time, energy and passion into it, the kitchen is honestly one of the most relaxing parts of the home, and cooking becomes a hobby just like reading a book or playing a game. Trying out different diets like Mediterranean, Keto or Vegan has allowed me to expand my culinary knowledge and try foods, alone or in combinations, that I never would have eaten otherwise. If not for my own desire to change and feel better, I'd have perfectly been content with an unhealthy ritual diet of coffee + bagel for breakfast, sandwich and chips for lunch, and your typical takeout or fast food dinner.

Once you start making the changes and actually start feeling the results, you'll never want to go back to your old ways of eating. And doing it from home is easy, cheap, quick and clean. But most importantly, fun and unique to you.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

When you put the time, energy and passion into it, the kitchen is honestly one of the most relaxing parts of the home, and cooking becomes a hobby just like reading a book or playing a game. Trying out different diets like Mediterranean, Keto or Vegan has allowed me to expand my culinary knowledge and try foods, alone or in combinations, that I never would have eaten otherwise. If not for my own desire to change and feel better, I'd have perfectly been content with an unhealthy ritual diet of coffee + bagel for breakfast, sandwich and chips for lunch, and your typical takeout or fast food dinner.

Once you start making the changes and actually start feeling the results, you'll never want to go back to your old ways of eating. And doing it from home is easy, cheap, quick and clean. But most importantly, fun and unique to you.

i really do respect your dedication to it. a few questions

• if you were content with coffee/bagels or sandwich/chips, what made you decide "fuck this, im gonna change"?
• when you say quick, how quick do you mean? i'm gonna sound like a lazy ass (because i am) but i dont like spending more than 10 minutes preparing food. never understood people that spend 3+ hours cooking food.
• when you first said "fuck it, i'm gonna change" like in my first bullet point, did you notice an immediate taste difference? or did everything taste like shit for a couple months before you noticed "wow this stuff actually taste good?"
• do you still drink coffee?
• do you cheat at all?
• do you consume nonnatural sugar under any capacity?

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pojr posted...

* if you were content with coffee/bagels or sandwich/chips, what made you decide "fuck this, im gonna change"?

Because I hated my image and how I felt every day: tired, unmotivated, lazy, and fatigued with brain fog. I wanted to be intelligent, healthy, fit and strong. I also did because of my dad, to help him against his illness and set an example of healthier eating habits for the rest of my family. I did it all alone with no one to guide or encourage me, just my own intuition and the internet as a resource for general tips and info.

* when you say quick, how quick do you mean? i'm gonna sound like a lazy ass (because i am) but i dont like spending more than 10 minutes preparing food. never understood people that spend 3+ hours cooking food.

It depends on the food itself, to be honest. Some foods can take 5 minutes to prepare. Overnight oats, a bowl of cereal, a smoothie or a PB&J sandwich. Some foods take 15-20 minutes, like my air fryer tofu or the one pot gnocchi recipe I posted previously. Some foods take hours, like a bean or lentil soup, but you can remedy this by throwing all your ingredients in a crock pot and leave it to cool while you do other things.

* when you first said "fuck it, i'm gonna change" like in my first bullet point, did you notice an immediate taste difference? or did everything taste like shit for a couple months before you noticed "wow this stuff actually taste good?"

I felt like shit the first week because I totally cut things like fast food, soda, coffee and sweets. I actually got a cold and was sick for a few days, and I remember wanting to quit and go back to my comfort foods, but I powered through it and came out feeling way better than before. After a few weeks, things started to taste way better because my taste buds were adapting to the actual flavor of food, instead of being numb and dumbed down by all the processed sugar. Headaches and cramps that were frequently happening almost every single day were now gone.

* do you still drink coffee?

Yes, every once in a while, organic house blend with a splash of vanilla soy milk. Sometimes lattes too.

* do you cheat at all?

On my vegan diet itself, no. I am very militant with my animal products in my food, as well as clothing, shoes and other aspects of life.

Do I cheat with vegan junk foods occasionally? Yeah, I go out to eat once or twice a month for special occasions, or eat things like french fries or non-dairy ice cream or cookies every once in a while.

* do you consume nonnatural sugar under any capacity?

Nothing artificial. No aspartame, splenda, acesulfame potassium, nothing. I've studied them and they kill off beneficial gut flora. No matter how healthy you eat, regularly taking in those artificial sweeteners will do damage. That's also why I buy a specialized chewing gum that has only 3 ingredients and uses xylitol as the sweetener.

For other things, I try to avoid added sugar as much as possible. Fruits and 100% fruit juices are totally fine as they are natural and not refined. Other things like maple syrup, stevia, erythritol and monkfruit are fine occasionally. I'm talking mainly about refined sugar with no nutrition... table sugar or cane sugar at very low levels, but for other things like maltodextrin or HFCS... those I try to never have ever.

Same goes for oils, because they are basically the fat equivalent to sugar. Coconut and palm are ones I actively try to avoid as much as possible, they have the most saturated fat.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

Because I hated my image and how I felt every day: tired, unmotivated, lazy, and fatigued with brain fog. I wanted to be intelligent, healthy, fit and strong. I also did because of my dad, to help him against his illness and set an example of healthier eating habits for the rest of my family. I did it all alone with no one to guide or encourage me, just my own intuition and the internet as a resource for general tips and info.

It depends on the food itself, to be honest. Some foods can take 5 minutes to prepare. Overnight oats, a bowl of cereal, a smoothie or a PB&J sandwich. Some foods take 15-20 minutes, like my air fryer tofu or the one pot gnocchi recipe I posted previously. Some foods take hours, like a bean or lentil soup, but you can remedy this by throwing all your ingredients in a crock pot and leave it to cool while you do other things.

I felt like shit the first week because I totally cut things like fast food, soda, coffee and sweets. I actually got a cold and was sick for a few days, and I remember wanting to quit and go back to my comfort foods, but I powered through it and came out feeling way better than before. After a few weeks, things started to taste way better because my taste buds were adapting to the actual flavor of food, instead of being numb and dumbed down by all the processed sugar. Headaches and cramps that were frequently happening almost every single day were now gone.

Yes, every once in a while, organic house blend with a splash of vanilla soy milk. Sometimes lattes too.

On my vegan diet itself, no. I am very militant with my animal products in my food, as well as clothing, shoes and other aspects of life.

Do I cheat with vegan junk foods occasionally? Yeah, I go out to eat once or twice a month for special occasions, or eat things like french fries or non-dairy ice cream or cookies every once in a while.

Nothing artificial. No aspartame, splenda, acesulfame potassium, nothing. I've studied them and they kill off beneficial gut flora. No matter how healthy you eat, regularly taking in those artificial sweeteners will do damage. That's also why I buy a specialized chewing gum that has only 3 ingredients and uses xylitol as the sweetener.

For other things, I try to avoid added sugar as much as possible. Fruits and 100% fruit juices are totally fine as they are natural and not refined. Other things like maple syrup, stevia, erythritol and monkfruit are fine occasionally. I'm talking mainly about refined sugar with no nutrition... table sugar or cane sugar at very low levels, but for other things like maltodextrin or HFCS... those I try to never have ever.

Same goes for oils, because they are basically the fat equivalent to sugar. Coconut and palm are ones I actively try to avoid as much as possible, they have the most saturated fat.

thanks man, i appreciate the time you took to reply to this. i have a couple more questions i thought of.

• did you ever make a lot of mistakes along with the way? like "oh shit, i shouldn't have eaten this"
• have you ever went through a rabbit hole looking for the correct information or study? such as one source saying "don't do XYZ" and another saying "XYZ is fine"? that is my biggest struggle with eating well, the misinformation on the internet, and no way to decipher what is correct and that isn't.
• i looked up gut flora (never heard of it). never realized that stuff can cause upset stomach, skin irritation and weight change. i thought "oh it's zero calorie? cool, what's the downside?" maybe thats a doofas statement. nothing in life is free.
• here's a big question. in all honesty, do you ever crave some of the old food you used to eat? do you ever hang out with friends that all want to go to mcdonalds, or bring over chips and dip, or something? what do you do in those social situations?

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just use nutritionfacts.org for any interrogation you have, tons of interesting articles on there, all backed up by science

pojr posted...

i'm gonna sound like a lazy ass (because i am) but i dont like spending more than 10 minutes preparing food.

Have you looked into an Instant Pot? You can get a small one for like $60 and they make cooking some things so much easier. You can make things like black bean soups and stuff as easy "all in one" recipes, just dump all the ingredients (including dry beans, lentils, etc) in, hit go, and come back in an hour or however long for what you're making.

I feel bad for pojr, dude asks a simple question and gets 20 people arguing how to optimize a pro bodybuilder diet based on contradicting science

pojr posted...

thanks man, i appreciate the time you took to reply to this. i have a couple more questions i thought of.

* did you ever make a lot of mistakes along with the way? like "oh shit, i shouldn't have eaten this"
* have you ever went through a rabbit hole looking for the correct information or study? such as one source saying "don't do XYZ" and another saying "XYZ is fine"? that is my biggest struggle with eating well, the misinformation on the internet, and no way to decipher what is correct and that isn't.
* i looked up gut flora (never heard of it). never realized that stuff can cause upset stomach, skin irritation and weight change. i thought "oh it's zero calorie? cool, what's the downside?" maybe thats a doofas statement. nothing in life is free.
* here's a big question. in all honesty, do you ever crave some of the old food you used to eat? do you ever hang out with friends that all want to go to mcdonalds, or bring over chips and dip, or something? what do you do in those social situations?

I honestly never crave the "bad" food anymore, when you've changed your whole diet for months or years it physically doesn't taste the same anymore

Yes it is a constant struggle with friends/90% of America who want to eat out every meal. I just tell them "I'm not really a sweets/fast food/expensive meal kind of guy"

It is totally normal and fine to make mistakes and buy into Google rabbitholes. It's seriously more simple than you're making it -- which is exactly why there is a multi billion dollar business of false information. Was this food made in a factory? Bad. Or did it come from an animal/plant? Good.

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Njolk posted...

I feel bad for pojr, dude asks a simple question and gets 20 people arguing how to optimize a pro bodybuilder diet based on contradicting science

This happens all the time in the fitness world, lmao. Person A wants some basic tips to lose 10lbs and they could do literally anything and it would work because they are untrained, but then the intermediate-to-advanced bodybuilder crowd shows up arguing about how to get your bodyfat from 12% to 8. It gets really silly.

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Njolk posted...

I feel bad for pojr, dude asks a simple question and gets 20 people arguing how to optimize a pro bodybuilder diet based on contradicting science

I honestly never crave the "bad" food anymore, when you've changed your whole diet for months or years it physically doesn't taste the same anymore

Yes it is a constant struggle with friends/90% of America who want to eat out every meal. I just tell them "I'm not really a sweets/fast food/expensive meal kind of guy"

It is totally normal and fine to make mistakes and buy into Google rabbitholes. It's seriously more simple than you're making it -- which is exactly why there is a multi billion dollar business of false information. Was this food made in a factory? Bad. Or did it come from an animal/plant? Good.

I'll be honest, it has discouraged me a lot. Anyone can make it seem easy, but if it were easy, there wouldn't be constant disagreements within this thread. Calories in calories out seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me when I first started this diet. I understand that some people in this thread are excited to give advice, and it's a way of life for them so they go a little overboard.

I think it's cool, yes surprising that you don't crave the bad food anymore. If you don't mind, I don't mean to pick apart every message, but I do have a couple questions

- is that actually true? There was never a time where you were like "I remember eating my grandmother's delicious Christmas cookies" or "I remember that comfort food". I'm not saying you're lying, but I just wanted to make sure you're not trying to convince yourself that you don't get those types of cravings anymore

- you mentions that food that comes from a factory is bad, food that comes from an animal or plants. How far should we take this? Because I have bought frozen vegetables with no added ingredients from the store before. And some people have mentioned oatmeal in this thread. Pretty sure that comes from a factory. Again, I don't mean to pick apart everything, but if I don't ask questions now I'm bounds to do something wrong in the future

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pojr posted...

I'll be honest, it has discouraged me a lot. Anyone can make it seem easy, but if it were easy, there wouldn't be constant disagreements within this thread. Calories in calories out seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me when I first started this diet. I understand that some people in this thread are excited to give advice, and it's a way of life for them so they go a little overboard.

I think it's cool, yes surprising that you don't crave the bad food anymore. If you don't mind, I don't mean to pick apart every message, but I do have a couple questions

- is that actually true? There was never a time where you were like "I remember eating my grandmother's delicious Christmas cookies" or "I remember that comfort food". I'm not saying you're lying, but I just wanted to make sure you're not trying to convince yourself that you don't get those types of cravings anymore

- you mentions that food that comes from a factory is bad, food that comes from an animal or plants. How far should we take this? Because I have bought frozen vegetables with no added ingredients from the store before. And some people have mentioned oatmeal in this thread. Pretty sure that comes from a factory. Again, I don't mean to pick apart everything, but if I don't ask questions now I'm bounds to do something wrong in the future

I used to LOVE coke and cinammon rolls. Like I'd dream about them. Last time I had either it had a totally different taste, like the taste of an artificial sweetener packet. Now my body wants other foods, like elk and asparagus.

But I think you're taking this too far which is easy to do as a beginner -- you still get to eat sweets and cookies. I sometimes like a piece of chocolate after a meal or ice cream on a date... But it's not that orgasmic experience it used to be. And they're just a sometimes food, I wouldn't want grandma's cookies every day or even every week. It tastes too sweet after a pretty small portion

You can take it as far as you want, some people ONLY eat "whole" foods (animal and plant foods), some people make it the majority of what they eat. There's a grey area, for sure. Just trying is enough to see results, especially if you exercise every day

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pojr posted...

I'll be honest, it has discouraged me a lot. Anyone can make it seem easy, but if it were easy, there wouldn't be constant disagreements within this thread. Calories in calories out seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me when I first started this diet. I understand that some people in this thread are excited to give advice, and it's a way of life for them so they go a little overboard.

If you dissect the disagreements further you discover that people are arguing over micromanagement stuff and optimisation. I.e more experienced athletes trying to get a few extra lbs in/out or trying to shave tiny bits of performance more out of their year's progress. People trying to come up with tricks to feel less full when eating, but no hard and fast rules that work for every person.

Ultimately the thing that matters is diet/training adherence and everyone will agree with that. What can you do that would make you stick to eating healthy and more active in the long run?

Take surfers as an example. Someone wanting to make a critical analysis of surfing might discover that it's not an optimal way to workout. It doesn't have a good system of progressive overload. It's taxing on your joints and prone to injury risk. "You would be better off doing weights." And yet, have you ever met a good surfer who didn't have a phenomenal physique? They're literally all fit as fuck and almost none of them care about optimal fitness training.

So if you hated the gym but you loved surfing, which is the better workout for you - an optimally programmed barbell routine you're gonna do for maybe all of 3 weeks, or going surfing every weekend for years?

The point here is that optimisation is largely academic or specialist, and doesn't apply to you. What does apply to you is doing whatever it is that you can keep doing for life.

Calories in calories out is the law, but whatever practical technique you use to apply that law is up to you. Intermittent fasting was the approach that worked for me. My (now ex) girlfriend couldn't handle this at all and decided to go with 6 small meals a day. Guess what? We both lost weight at the same pace because we could both adhere to the plan and keep up the changes.

For some people flexible dieting works. For others strict rules on what to exclude works. Why? In every case it's about long term adherence.

This is why basically every diet has been proven to show immediate fat loss results but also why basically every diet has people bouncing back in huge percentages. People aim for short term milestones instead of long term lifestyle changes.

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Great advice from pinky and duran

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Njolk posted...

I used to LOVE coke and cinammon rolls. Like I'd dream about them. Last time I had either it had a totally different taste, like the taste of an artificial sweetener packet. Now my body wants other foods, like elk and asparagus.

But I think you're taking this too far which is easy to do as a beginner -- you still get to eat sweets and cookies. I sometimes like a piece of chocolate after a meal or ice cream on a date... But it's not that orgasmic experience it used to be. And they're just a sometimes food, I wouldn't want grandma's cookies every day or even every week. It tastes too sweet after a pretty small portion. Also I love pizza still. You don't drop your favorite foods forever, you just don't base your diet on them

You can take it as far as you want, some people ONLY eat "whole" foods (animal and plant foods), some people make it the majority of what they eat. There's a grey area, for sure. Just trying is enough to see results, especially if you exercise every day

how long does it take to enter that phase of not liking sweet food? i think someone said it can take up to a year. reason i ask is because there was a point where i did eat fairly healthy for a whole month period. steel cut oatmeal with bananas for breakfast, salad with no dressing for lunch and chicken + rice for dinner. but a month in, i went to my family's house for a gathering, had sweets and...hate to say it, but it was still good like i remember it. but maybe i didnt give it enough time.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

im not a scientist, but doesnt eating sweets after not doing it send you back to liking sweets like before? like how people on keto will be sent back if they eat carbs again. maybe it doesn't, i dont know. but thats why im afraid to go back.

im open to eating healthier, but i dont like wasting my time. i dont like doing something for no reason. thats why i do like having a clear path before i start something, and why i like asking questions first.

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pojr posted...

how long does it take to enter that phase of not liking sweet food? i think someone said it can take up to a year. reason i ask is because there was a point where i did eat fairly healthy for a whole month period. steel cut oatmeal with bananas for breakfast, salad with no dressing for lunch and chicken + rice for dinner. but a month in, i went to my family's house for a gathering, had sweets and...hate to say it, but it was still good like i remember it. but maybe i didnt give it enough time.

im not a scientist, but doesnt eating sweets after not doing it send you back to liking sweets like before? like how people on keto will be sent back if they eat carbs again. maybe it doesn't, i dont know. but thats why im afraid to go back.

im open to eating healthier, but i dont like wasting my time. i dont like doing something for no reason. thats why i do like having a clear path before i start something, and why i like asking questions first.

Cold turkey I think it takes about 4-6 weeks for cravings to go away and 6-12mo for the sugar to taste weird

BUT you don't NEED to do it this way. Just trying to eat better will work too. Don't get caught in the internet method of "110% or nothing"

Just like pinky said, ask yourself of any new routine "Is this sustainable?"

There are so many correct paths, all you gotta do is start. Sounds like you did and just needed minor tweaks (more meat and veggies, less factory food)

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pinky0926 posted...

If you dissect the disagreements further you discover that people are arguing over micromanagement stuff and optimisation. I.e more experienced athletes trying to get a few extra lbs in/out or trying to shave tiny bits of performance more out of their year's progress. People trying to come up with tricks to feel less full when eating, but no hard and fast rules that work for every person.

Ultimately the thing that matters is diet/training adherence and everyone will agree with that. What can you do that would make you stick to eating healthy and more active in the long run?

Take surfers as an example. Someone wanting to make a critical analysis of surfing might discover that it's not an optimal way to workout. It doesn't have a good system of progressive overload. It's taxing on your joints and prone to injury risk. "You would be better off doing weights." And yet, have you ever met a good surfer who didn't have a phenomenal physique? They're literally all fit as fuck and almost none of them care about optimal fitness training.

So if you hated the gym but you loved surfing, which is the better workout for you - an optimally programmed barbell routine you're gonna do for maybe all of 3 weeks, or going surfing every weekend for years?

The point here is that optimisation is largely academic or specialist, and doesn't apply to you. What does apply to you is doing whatever it is that you can keep doing for life.

Calories in calories out is the law, but whatever practical technique you use to apply that law is up to you. Intermittent fasting was the approach that worked for me. My (now ex) girlfriend couldn't handle this at all and decided to go with 6 small meals a day. Guess what? We both lost weight at the same pace because we could both adhere to the plan and keep up the changes.

For some people flexible dieting works. For others strict rules on what to exclude works. Why? In every case it's about long term adherence.

This is why basically every diet has been proven to show immediate fat loss results but also why basically every diet has people bouncing back in huge percentages. People aim for short term milestones instead of long term lifestyle changes.

There are some things im hung up on, like whether i should increase my intake or not. a lot of people are saying i should. with that said, there is a lot of good shit in this thread.

i do agree with the adherence. theres gotta be a way to stick with it. sorry to hear about your gf btw. i saw your thread on it like a month ago.

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pojr posted...

There are some things im hung up on, like whether i should increase my intake or not. a lot of people are saying i should. with that said, there is a lot of good shit in this thread.

This is an example of the internet treating this like a min max video game, or "optimization"

You will lose fat either way. Is one 20% better? Probably, who cares just stay on your path. Are you getting weaker? Eat more protein. Are you not losing fat? Eat fewer calories. Stay off the internet fitness sites

There's a subreddit called r/1200isplenty if that helps you meal plan

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pojr posted...

There are some things im hung up on, like whether i should increase my intake or not. a lot of people are saying i should. with that said, there is a lot of good shit in this thread.

i do agree with the adherence. theres gotta be a way to stick with it. sorry to hear about your gf btw. i saw your thread on it like a month ago.

i think you should relax a little and relieve yourself of the burden of thinking that you need to make the right decision right now. There's a reason why people call fitness a journey and not a goal. Like what would a month of subpar progress mean in the grand scheme of things? You'd just have learned a valuable lesson about your own metabolic needs. There's not gonna be a catastrophe if you shoot a little too high or low.

So just choose one of those options and check yourself in a month or two to see how it's going. if it's vastly wrong you'll figure it out pretty quickly. And then all you do is adjust a little up or down.

And thanks :)

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pojr posted...

thanks man, i appreciate the time you took to reply to this. i have a couple more questions i thought of.

It's all good.

* did you ever make a lot of mistakes along with the way? like "oh shit, i shouldn't have eaten this"

Plenty of mistakes. But the trick is to not get caught up in the failures and stuck in the past. Instead, use it as a teaching moment and opportunity to better yourself for the future.

* have you ever went through a rabbit hole looking for the correct information or study? such as one source saying "don't do XYZ" and another saying "XYZ is fine"? that is my biggest struggle with eating well, the misinformation on the internet, and no way to decipher what is correct and that isn't.

I've gone through a few of rabbit holes, so you have to really dig deep and separate the correct info from the misinformation, and I learned a great deal of nutrition, biochemistry, anatomy and more from all of my schooling.

* i looked up gut flora (never heard of it). never realized that stuff can cause upset stomach, skin irritation and weight change. i thought "oh it's zero calorie? cool, what's the downside?" maybe thats a doofas statement. nothing in life is free.

Yeah, the main problem with the Western diet is fiber deficiency. Fiber feeds the gut flora, and the gut microbiome is practically an organ in and of itself, very understudied in today's world of health and wellness. It plays a massive role in not just digestive maintenance, but other areas like brain and immune system health.

* here's a big question. in all honesty, do you ever crave some of the old food you used to eat? do you ever hang out with friends that all want to go to mcdonalds, or bring over chips and dip, or something? what do you do in those social situations?

Nope. I don't crave any fast food or animal foods I used to enjoy. I'm at the point where I've psychologically trained myself to dislike the smell of things like scrambled eggs or fried chicken. In those social situations where food is involved, such as a party or restaurant, I politely thank for the offer, but decline, anything like a slice of pizza, a donut or a brownie.

ROOTFayth posted...

just use nutritionfacts.org for any interrogation you have, tons of interesting articles on there, all backed up by science

Second this, Michael Greger is a really great physician and very knowledgeable with nutrition, which is not common in most doctors or physicians in general, they get very little next to zero class hours of nutrition throughout their entire medical school.

Edit: whoa a lot of reading to catch up on lol

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Also, this is a wonderful video for those that want to learn more about protein and how it relates to our nutrition and biochemistry as humans. It's on the longer side (over an hour) but it is well worth the watch and you will learn a lot. Milton Mills is one of my favorite doctors to listen to, as he has such a passion for chemistry and helping people.

https://youtu.be/Nti7JrBOQAk

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Xenozoa425 posted...

I can also elaborate more on CICO (calories in/out) if you'd like, as well as the differences in nutrition between factory or processed foods vs whole foods.

Actually yeah, can you elaborate on those things? They would be awesome. I've definitely looked at the ingredients of foods and noticed some weird shit.

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the protein powder I bought from Aldi may not have been the best buy. It did contain sugarlose, and it seemed like it was awfully sweet

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I personally just get Naked Pea Protein

pojr posted...

Actually yeah, can you elaborate on those things? They would be awesome. I've definitely looked at the ingredients of foods and noticed some weird shit.

I'll go over 3 main points that are all pretty closely related to each other:

a). calories in, calories out (CICO)
b). processed/factory foods vs whole/natural foods
c). food ingredients and how to identify fillers, preservatives, chemicals, additives, etc.

This may be a bit lengthy, but I promise it is a good read.

a). calories in, calories out (CICO)

It's a pretty simple and straightforward concept. Food is our quintessential energy source that powers our bodies. Calories are a way of measuring how much energy it takes to heat 1 gram of water in our bodies by 1 degree. Energy in, energy out. To lose weight, you eat less energy than your body uses. To gain weight, you do the opposite and eat more energy than your body can use. Our diets, metabolism, stress levels and activity levels are a few big ways that we can influence, directly or indirectly, our intake or expenditure of energy. However, there are a few intricacies that require a slightly different approach, a more deeper understanding of nutrition than what you see on the surface level. CICO obviously relies on the concept of energy quantity, but there's also a degree to measuring the quality and the type of calories that are just as important. Our bodies are like cars, in a sense. We need different nutrients to serve different roles and support important functions, much like a car needs things like gas, oil, windshield fluid, transmission fluid, etc. Since we are talking about CICO and energy, the only real nutrients we have to generally worry about are the three macros: proteins, fats and carbohydrates. They all provide different amounts of energy, but they also serve different roles in the body. Protein and carbs will have 4 calories per gram, while fats are 9 calories per gram. All 3 must be balanced in a way that allows our bodies to achieve the optimal homeostasis for good health, fitness and longevity.

Carbohydrates, as much fear and loathing as they get, are the nutrients our bodies need the most and get the most optimal energy from. Almost all carb sources will be from plants, with the rare exception of things like lactose found in mammalian milks. Carbs are also part of the backbone that makes up amino acids and proteins. You wouldn't have any protein if it wasn't for plants and their ability to take nitrogen from the soil and atmosphere, and combine it with the process of photosynthesis and sugar making. Different plant carbs will contain varying amounts of sugars and starches, as well as proteins and fats. Carbs are also unique in that they are the only macro where you can get fiber, antioxidants and phytochemicals. With that said, carbs should make up the majority of the diet of every single human on the planet. You have complex carbs (fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds) that are nutritionally dense and slowly release energy, and the simple carbs (fruit juices, table sugar, white flour, etc) that release their energy more quickly and spike blood sugar. Any extra carbs that we ingest will either be stored as glycogen, utilized by the body to assist with structure or maintenance, or be burned as energy. Almost never will the body attempt to convert carbs into fat, because it's a very energy intensive process. Because carbs are the only macro that contain fiber, antioxidants and phytonutrients, they are extremely important for the health of the brain and gut microbiome. The brain is the only organ that does not produce its own antioxidants, and it relies on our food for antioxidant support to fight against free radicals and inflammation. Fiber is also extremely important because gut flora will take that fiber and produce butyrate, which is a short chain fatty acid that is used by the body for various functions like brain health and immune system support. Most people on a Western diet get less than half of their daily recommended fiber.

Fats, or lipids, are the other main source of energy that our bodies use. Because our bodies prefer to use carbohydrates for energy, and because dietary fats are almost chemically identical to the fat in our fat cells, they will typically get stored away after being consumed. So essentially, the fat you eat is the fat you wear. And because fat energy is so densely packed, it's easy to overeat them and pile on excess weight. Most of the fat + carb combo foods are addictive because they are pleasure trap foods. Things like french fries, ice cream, pastries or white breads that you spread butter on. Your body will burn the simple sugars in the bread, but store the butter in your fat cells. The fat will bioaccumulate if you keep eating high amounts over periods of time, (saturated and trans fats are notorious for this) and will become intramyocelluar lipids that slow down your metabolism. They seep into your muscle cells and create insulin resistance, where the body cannot effectively get the sugars and nutrients out of the blood properly, so the pancreas has to overcompensate and release more insulin, which lowers your blood sugars and makes you tired, hungry, fatigued, have brain fog, etc.

Protein is a unique macro. While it does provide energy, that's not its primary purpose. Amino acids are the building blocks for the body and are used to create everything: hair, skin, eyes, muscles, bones, DNA, enzymes, hormones, hemoglobin and more. They are made up of three segments: an amine group that contains nitrogen, a carboxyl group, and a side chain that gives the protein its defining characteristic. As much as our bodies need essential proteins from the diet, the body is very smart and will recycle as much as 90g of protein throughout the entire lining of our upper digestive system, as well as other sources of endogenous proteins, such as saliva, digestive enzymes, blood plasma and even microbes. But with all that cool recycling it does, there is ultimately no storage area for protein, like the way carbs get stored as glycogen, or fats get stored in fat cells. When our body consumes excess protein, the amine group is stripped away. The carboxyl backbone that remains will be converted into carbohydrate that either is used for energy or stored as glycogen, while the rest of the compound is transformed into urea and sulfurous acid in the kidneys, and then excreted in urine. Consuming excess protein will therefore put a massive strain on the kidneys over a prolonged time, and the sulfurous acid will have an effect on the body called metabolic acidosis. The body has to buffer the acid somehow, and it does this by dissolving phosphates from your bones. The calcium that was in those bones then is excreted in the urine. This is why high protein diets are strongly correlated with incidences of kidney stones, and that protein intakes must be carefully measured and taken within the correct physiological limits of our bodies. Most people on a Western diet get way more protein than they really need, anywhere from 1.5x to 2x more, even strict vegans and vegetarians. No person should be eating more than 0.8g to 0.9g per kg of their weight, in protein. This number is basically you weight in pounds, multiplied by 40, and then divided by 100. In reality, most people that are sedentary to mildly active would need only 0.65g per kg of their body weight.

So in short, the calories you want to be eating most are the complex carbs that contain a plethora of vitamins and minerals, as well as the natural fibers, antioxidants and phytochemicals that your body needs. The rest of your calories should come from your adequate amount of protein, and then finally the healthy omega-3 rich fats.

-continued next post-

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These sections will be a bit shorter lol, I promise.

b). processed and factory foods, vs whole and natural foods

It's a pretty easy concept, as humans, we want to be eating things that come from as close to the ground as possible. The less processed and refined a food is, the more nutrients it will have. There is a big difference between a potato, and potato chips. Or an apple and apple juice. Or whole grain bread with white bread. When you take a food and strip away all the source of nutrients (which are the fibers, vitamins and minerals) all you are left with is a simple carbohydrate, a quick energy source that lacks nutrition. When you combine these quick burning fuels with a source of dietary fat and/or cholesterol, high protein intake, and a sedentary lifestyle, you are creating a recipe for disaster: obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc.

This doesn't necessarily mean that every food from a factory is "processed" and inherently unhealthy. It just means that it had to be prepared in a way that makes it easier or convenient for our own preparation or consumption. Canned beans that are already cooked are just as clean and healthy as dry beans that need to be cooked in water. Frozen fruits and vegetables are just as healthy as fresh ones. When you are looking at the difference between processed and whole foods, it's easy to spot the difference. Oats are healthier than frosted wheat cereals because oats are basically the edible seeds of the grain, while the frosted wheat cereal is the result of taking those oats, mashing them into flour and refining them into a new shape. Apples are healthier than apple juice because the apple is the whole package deal and contains fiber that slows absorption of sugars and nutrients into the blood, while the apple juice is refined and removes everything but the sugars and water, which will quickly spike your blood sugars.

c). food ingredients and how to identify fillers, additives, chemicals, preservatives, etc.

If you read the ingredients list, and it looks like it's the length of your arm with a bunch of words you can't pronounce, it's 99.9% a processed food you should not eat. Food companies will add in a bunch of things into food to make it taste better, last longer, improve the smell or texture, have a better consistency, etc. These are things like added sugars, flavor enhancers like MSG, preservatives like salt or potassium benzoate, emulsifiers like soy lecithin, or other additives like caramel coloring and food dyes (red 40, yellow 6, etc).

You can identify what they are and how much of it there is by doing this trick:

Look at the serving size in grams. Let's use a small bag of 1.75oz (49.6g) of Doritos.

The bag is one serving with approximately 240 calories and has approximately 14g of fat, 28g in carbs and 3g of protein. Fat makes up half the caloric value of the packaging, and the simple carbs make up almost entirely the other half. Protein makes up about 5% of the total caloric content. Saturated fat is a component of the total fat, and dietary fibers and sugars are components of total carbohydrate, so those amounts are not counted with the total calories overall. Sodium also has a small amount of 0.3g in the bag and that adds a bit to the weight in grams. That equals 45.3g out of the 49.6 stated on the label. That means roughly 9% of the Doritos is filled with things that are not food. Ingredients are listed on U.S. packaging left to right, from the greatest amount to the least. Corn is the first ingredient and makes up the bulk of the product, while disodium guanylane, a typical flavor enhancer, is the last ingredient with the lowest amount. It also has extremely poor levels of vitamins and minerals.

Also don't ignore the not-so-subtle "produced with genetic engineering" disclaimer on the bottom.

Let's compare that to something else like a can of black bean soup.

One can has 1 serving of 411g total weight and 360 calories. Of those calories, 7g is fat, 58g is carbs and 16g is protein, along with 910mg sodium, 1290 potassium and 130mg calcium. That adds up to about 83.3g altogether. Looking at the ingredients list, it is much shorter than the Doritos. We have to also remember that the black beans are cooked in water, so they will retain that water, and more water is also added into the soup itself afterward. You also have vegetables, sea salt, spices and a little bit of oil. There are no preservatives, chemicals, food dyes or other additives. Nice little bit of iron too! This is a food that, while processed and put together in a factory, is a much healthier food because it contains mostly whole food ingredients and spices, with a small amount of oil.

Compared to the Doritos, the black bean soup is a much better source of complex carbs, protein, has less fat and zero saturated fat, a good chunk of fiber, a lot of potassium and a decent bit of iron. The only downside is the amount of sodium, which is fine if this is the majority of your sodium intake for the day. Ideally it's best to stay under 1500mg, but the potassium should be at twice that level around 3000mg, and 1290mg is almost half of that in one serving!

I hope this helps and answers any questions you and others may have!

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@Xenozoa425

Thanks so much for the detailed information. This is actually some really good shit. Still trying to marinate everything that you wrote.

I went to the store today and picked up a couple things.

Quick oats
Chicken breasts
Frozen blueberries
Fat free Greek yogurt

Bottled water

I didn't have a lot of time to shop, because I had to get my workout done. I was going to pick up some cheese, but I noticed a lot of cheese has a lot of other ingredients - not sure what the best option is. I also noticed that almond milk has more ingredients than just chopped up almonds. I was also looking at bread, and couldn't find one that had very healthy ingredients, even the 12 grain and 9 grain breads.

I think this will be good and bad. I will probably miss my old foods, but it will be nice being able to intake a couple hundred more calories per day. That part specifically will be nice.

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If you are unsure about specific ingredients in things like cheese, almond milk or bread, you can always google them. Different companies may make similar products with small changes, such as using natural sources of color pigments from plants, or a tiny bit of salt to help with preservation and slowing the growth of bacteria or mold.

It also doesn't necessarily mean you have to give up your old foods. Instead, you can always put a healthy spin on them. You can make salad dressing out of pured fruits instead of oil, or use brown rice instead of white.

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Bump. Haven't forgotten about this. Made oatmeal with the quick oats and added blueberries and yogurt to it. It was for a post workout breakfast. I usually don't workout this early, but I had to leave super early to see my family.

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Xenozoa425 posted...

I totally cut things like fast food, soda, coffee and sweets

Coffee is good for you though, why would you cut it? I didn't drink coffee and started because of the health benefits lol.

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