Current Events > billionaires actually don't pay taxes

(+) Yeah! (+)

My dude. Why don't you just accept you made a dumb ass topic with a dumb ass title and stop with the mental gymnastics?

It shows all those people paid taxes, just not enough. Yes, that's a problem. A solution would have to be hyperfocused on them.


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ROOTFayth posted...

it allowed me to get an amazing service from amazon, Im good

Yeah getting smooshed packages or them being left out in the rain is soooo amazing!
So glad Bezos can not pay taxes.
So THANKFUL!!!

People thank the military for their service? They SHOULD be thanking Jeff Bezos!!

/s

InfinityMonster posted...

My dude. Why don't you just accept you made a dumb ass topic with a dumb ass title and stop with the mental gymnastics?

It shows all those people paid taxes, just not enough. Yes, that's a problem. A solution would have to be hyperfocused on them.

It shows they pay no tax.

Read the actual reseaech paper from the tax professor please.

so if we summarize, we should pay taxes on unrealized gains, we should also pay taxes on loans, yay socialism

ROOTFayth posted...

so if we summarize, we should pay taxes on unrealized gains, we should also pay taxes on loans, yay socialism

Who's talking about taxing unrealized gains?

The real problem is that trick these rich people use of taking out loans using their assets as collateral.

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WingsOfGood posted...

It shows they pay no tax.

Read the actual reseaech paper from the tax professor please.

What research paper?

I'm going by your article. They literally paid tax.



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ROOTFayth posted...

so if we summarize, we should pay taxes on unrealized gains, we should also pay taxes on loans, yay socialism

Not we.

Only those who can skirt taxes via this method meaning billionaires.

That is just one possible solution anyways.

@InfinityMonster

This research paper my dude

WingsOfGood posted...

University of Southern California tax law professor Edward McCaffery has summarized the entire arc with the catchphrase buy, borrow, die.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3242314

millionaires can do all of that as well

WingsOfGood posted...

@InfinityMonster

This research paper my dude

I'm not reading a long ass research paper. Summarize it better.

You said billionaires don't pay taxes and your article literally shows how much tax they paid. Don't change the subject.

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ROOTFayth posted...

millionaires can do all of that as well

Please stop trolling.

InfinityMonster posted...

I'm not reading a long ass research paper. Summarize it better.

You said billionaires don't pay taxes and your article literally shows how much tax they paid. Don't change the subject.

I did already arguing with some other dudes.

But fine.

Summary is simple.

1. They take out loans and use that as income
2. They can keep doing this until they die and thus don't actually have to pay the loan ever by cashing out their stocks
3. When they die, the stocks can be used TAX FREE to pay off the loan

So people saying they have no income aren't actually correct as they use loans to change stocks into actual cash without ever paying tax on this or having to cash the stocks; only their kids when they die who don't pay tax on that.

WingsOfGood posted...

I did already arguing with some other dudes.

But fine.

Summary is simple.

1. They take out loans and use that as income
2. They can keep doing this until they die and thus don't actually have to pay the loan ever by cashing out their stocks
3. When they die, the stocks can be used TAX FREE to pay off the loan

So people saying they have no income aren't actually correct as they use loans to change stocks into actual cash without ever paying tax on this or having to cash the stocks; only their kids when they die who don't pay tax on that.

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I think food shouldnt be a fixed price either boys, make it really fair, % of networth

InfinityMonster posted...

So say I make billions and pay no taxes on that.

My friend gifts me half a million.

I pay gift tax on this.

You seriously gonna argue I am paying my fair share cause I paid tax on a gift but use loopholes so my actual income avoids tax every year?

ROOTFayth posted...

I think food shouldnt be a fixed price either boys, make it really fair, % of networth

Kindly shut the fuck up.

WingsOfGood posted...

So say I make billions and pay no taxes on that.

My friend gifts me half a million.

I pay gift tax on this.

You seriously gonna argue I am paying my fair share cause I paid tax on a gift but use loopholes so my actual income avoids tax every year?

InfinityMonster posted...

My dude. Why don't you just accept you made a dumb ass topic with a dumb ass title and stop with the mental gymnastics?

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InfinityMonster posted...

So you rather care about being pendantic to troll me than the fact that I just cited a professor of law showing they can hide billions that they make and never pay a dime of tax on that?

InfinityMonster posted...

What research paper?

I'm going by your article. They literally paid tax.

Those guys paid more taxes than TC will in several lifetimes.

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Squall28 posted...

Those guys paid more taxes than TC will in several lifetimes.

Not percentage wise bro.

Percentage wise I paid way more.

WingsOfGood posted...

Not percentage wise bro.

Percentage wise I paid way more.

When the government has to pay for stuff it's not percentage wise bro. $1 from a random person and a $1 from a billionaire are both worth $1 when they have to build a bridge or fund a school. Your dollar is not somehow worth more because you're poor.

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These, and other, reasons are why we shouldn't have billionaires.

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Squall28 posted...

When the government has to pay for stuff it's not percentage wise bro. $1 from a random person and a $1 from a billionaire are both worth $1 when they have to build a bridge or fund a school. Your dollar is not somehow worth more because you're poor.

If you actually cared about this you would want them to pay their fair share and yet here you are making stupid logical fallacies like "they paid tax one year and it was more than most people so it is ok if they don't pay taxes for all these other years. Thank you for your service my lord!"

"Fair share" is a stupid buzzword. Imagine if you go to a store, and you have to pay $10 for a burger while someone else only has to pay $1. Why should you have to pay more for the same service?

Progressive taxes are great because they take from people who have extra, and less from people who need it. The government needs money, and this is the best way to do it. I'm completely fine with taxing the rich more via a wealth tax after a certain limit. I just don't get riled up by these emotional arguments because they're stupid. Articles like the one you posted are there solely to mislead people into getting angry.

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Squall28 posted...

Imagine if you go to a store, and you have to pay $10 for a burger while someone else only has to pay $1.

One burger is made of gold and the other is a mcdonald burger dug out of the trash.

You are saying the gold burger should still cost $1
Actually, no, you are saying the gold burger should be less than the trash burger.

Fyi, Warren Buffet joked about his secretary paying more tax than him.

Squall28 posted...

"Fair share" is a stupid buzzword. Imagine if you go to a store, and you have to pay $10 for a burger while someone else only has to pay $1. Why should you have to pay more for the same service?

Progressive taxes are great because they take from people who have extra, and less from people who need it. The government needs money, and this is the best way to do it. I'm completely fine with taxing the rich more via a wealth tax after a certain limit. I just don't get riled up by these emotional arguments because they're stupid. Articles like the one you posted are there solely to mislead people into getting angry.

This is the worst post in the whole fucking topic. You're for progressive tax, but when confronted with evidence that shows the super wealthy avoid the same tax rate other upper income people have to pay, you instead get into an argument about "fair share."

Anyway, I read the first two pages and skimmed the last two pages.

1) Yes this is nothing new - except we know have specific details on how the ultra wealthy avoid paying taxes each year.

2) Some people may argue for it, but I believe most people upset here are only targeting the super wealthy. Upper income individuals that make mid to high 6 figures pay a very high amount in taxes and can't do most of the things billionaires can to avoid paying taxes. The super wealthy skirting taxes is more unfair to those individuals as opposed to the lower or middle class.

3) No one here seems to be arguing that every person's wealth should be taxed - rather, the super wealthy should be taxed on that wealth as they use it to avoid having to take an income or have other gains that increase their taxable income.

4) Lastly, are people like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Michael Bloomberg billionaires? Or are they "unrealized" billionaires?

pistachio12 posted...

This is the worst post in the whole fucking topic. You're for progressive tax, but when confronted with evidence that shows the super wealthy avoid the same tax rate other upper income people have to pay, you instead get into an argument about "fair share."

Anyway, I read the first two pages and skimmed the last two pages.

1) Yes this is nothing new - except we know have specific details on how the ultra wealthy avoid paying taxes each year.

2) Some people may argue for it, but I believe most people upset here are only targeting the super wealthy. Upper income individuals that make mid to high 6 figures pay a very high amount in taxes and can't do most of the things billionaires can to avoid paying taxes. The super wealthy skirting taxes is more unfair to those individuals as opposed to the lower or middle class.

3) No one here seems to be arguing that every person's wealth should be taxed - rather, the super wealthy should be taxed on that wealth as they use it to avoid having to take an income or have other gains that increase their taxable income.

4) Lastly, are people like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Michael Bloomberg billionaires? Or are they "unrealized" billionaires?

Thank you.

Yes, it seems many users would rather be like "but tc they have to pay sales tax! so they DO pay tax! GOTCHA!"
than to consume the information that every year they make billions more and that gain is never taxed

pistachio12 posted...

This is the worst post in the whole f***ing topic. You're for progressive tax, but when confronted with evidence that shows the super wealthy avoid the same tax rate other upper income people have to pay, you instead get into an argument about "fair share."

It's called being unbiased. Just because you support a particular viewpoint doesn't mean you drink the Kool aid on whatever shit your side comes up with.

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WingsOfGood posted...

What do you make of this?

It's the same with the federal government and its debt. We have unlimited capital. There is no real wealth gap, there is an information gap.

Anyone can start a business right now and get ample funding. With no losses if the business fails.

There are federal and private company incubators all over the country, and European and Canadian and Indian and African and South American and Russian and Chinese options too.

In general, there is no limit to how much the money supply can grow in our lifetime or even until we've scaled to 100 billion people. This is because we are bound only by physical resources, and those are actually for all intents and purposes limitless.

Happy to be as granular as any smartasses here would like, but you better bring your A game. You know what? Not good enough. Bring your motherfucking S-rank. ;)

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i read a story about a janitor who worked his whole life and didnt pay a whole lot of taxes because his salary was low, but he invested all the extra money and ended up dead with 8 millions networth, whoever inherited that didnt pay taxes on these millions, janitor managed to avoid paying taxes on 8 million dollars, how unfair is this?

ROOTFayth posted...

i read a story about a janitor who worked his whole life and didnt pay a whole lot of taxes because his salary was low, but he invested all the extra money and ended up dead with 8 millions networth, whoever inherited that didnt pay taxes on these millions, janitor managed to avoid paying taxes on 8 million dollars, how unfair is this?

Its pretty fucking based ngl.

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ROOTFayth posted...

i read a story about a janitor who worked his whole life and didnt pay a whole lot of taxes because his salary was low, but he invested all the extra money and ended up dead with 8 millions networth, whoever inherited that didnt pay taxes on these millions, janitor managed to avoid paying taxes on 8 million dollars, how unfair is this?

It's literally the average story for anyone who does just the bare minimum average job in life.

The left significantly exaggerates the economic state of the country to justify wealth redistribution. I'm already for UBI and we're already making serious progress, and the median household income here is like $79,000. Anyone can build real wealth with that.

Be median and you will retire a millionaire if you're not unwise with your life. It's not rocket science. Immigrant families do it all the time. I think it's work ethic related. People born here for generations get lazy because they have a high standard of living due to their parents paying for everything, and when they realize they need to actually haul ass to work and to grow new skills they prefer wealth redistribution thinking it'll maintain their standard of living more easily lol.

Yes, we need UBI and more tax on high-end assets (which the billionaires themselves say). But what the fuck else do we need? What's with the fever pitch from the zealots online? lol

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ROOTFayth posted...

i read a story about a janitor who worked his whole life and didnt pay a whole lot of taxes because his salary was low, but he invested all the extra money and ended up dead with 8 millions networth, whoever inherited that didnt pay taxes on these millions, janitor managed to avoid paying taxes on 8 million dollars, how unfair is this?

He isn't living off an 8 million loan using those investments as collateral with an insignificant interest rate.

ROOTFayth posted...

so if we summarize, we should pay taxes on unrealized gains, we should also pay taxes on loans, yay socialism

And on credit lines, since the troll still hasn't figured out the difference between credit lines and loans

And since Tc couldn't answer. Bezos has paid over 1.5 billion in federal taxes.

But the problem as TC repeated ignorance has shown, is if you tackle any of the 'loopholes' you fuck over the poor and middle class. If you target just high incomes, they stay below the thresholds.

Your best option to tackle wealthy avoiding taxes would require international tax law. Which the tax heaven countries would never allow.

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Squall28 posted...

It's called being unbiased. Just because you support a particular viewpoint doesn't mean you drink the Kool aid on whatever shit your side comes up with.

Its more that your point contradicts itself. Most people would consider a progressive tax someone paying their fair share.

ROOTFayth posted...

i read a story about a janitor who worked his whole life and didnt pay a whole lot of taxes because his salary was low, but he invested all the extra money and ended up dead with 8 millions networth, whoever inherited that didnt pay taxes on these millions, janitor managed to avoid paying taxes on 8 million dollars, how unfair is this?

Do you actually have this story or is it one of those dumb hypothetical that conservatives love to use to help demonstrate the concept of bootstraps?

And again - this hypothetical janitor is not a billionaire. Bringing up the gains a regular person has through stocks or property does not counter any of these points.

pistachio12 posted...

And again - this hypothetical janitor is not a billionaire. Bringing up the gains a regular person has through stocks or property does not counter any of these points.

Exactly.

Elon can use the value of his assets to pay rent on his million dollar mansions.

This Janitor couldn't do that to even pay his $500 rent or whatever it cost.

But anyways ROOT has been trolling this whole thread fyi.

WingsOfGood posted...

Exactly.

Elon can use the value of his assets to pay rent on his million dollar mansions.

This Janitor couldn't do that to even pay his $500 rent or whatever it cost.

But anyways ROOT has been trolling this whole thread fyi.

that janitor could've done basically the same type of thing if he wanted to leverage his millions into assets. anyone can do it.

some people are good at it, some are not and just prefer living comfortable lives and enjoying life and ending up as millionaires over time

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pistachio12 posted...

Its more that your point contradicts itself. Most people would consider a progressive tax someone paying their fair share.

I'm not most people. "Fair share" is just a political talking point. It doesn't mean jack shit.

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They do

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pistachio12 posted...

Its more that your point contradicts itself. Most people would consider a progressive tax someone paying their fair share.

Do you actually have this story or is it one of those dumb hypothetical that conservatives love to use to help demonstrate the concept of bootstraps?

And again - this hypothetical janitor is not a billionaire. Bringing up the gains a regular person has through stocks or property does not counter any of these points.

nah it's a true story, or at least it's claimed to be in the book The psychology of money

pure_temper posted...

that janitor could've done basically the same type of thing if he wanted to leverage his millions into assets. anyone can do it.

some people are good at it, some are not and just prefer living comfortable lives and enjoying life and ending up as millionaires over time

This is incorrect.

Squall28 posted...

I'm not most people. "Fair share" is just a political talking point. It doesn't mean jack shit.

I guarantee you the people in this topic you'd argue "fair share" with all belive progressive taxes are fair share. Meaning your point was arguing against itself.

pure_temper posted...

that janitor could've done basically the same type of thing if he wanted to leverage his millions into assets. anyone can do it.

No that janitor cannot. The janitor does not have the option to forgo his income for a high percentage of shares in a successful company while then using said wealth to create other assets. He couldn't get that 1.5% mortgage Zuckerberg got because that janitor is not a multi-billionaire.

pistachio12 posted...

I guarantee you the people in this topic you'd argue "fair share" with all belive progressive taxes are fair share. Meaning your point was arguing against itself.

No that janitor cannot. The janitor does not have the option to forgo his income for a high percentage of shares in a successful company while then using said wealth to create other assets. He couldn't get that 1.5% mortgage Zuckerberg got because that janitor is not a multi-billionaire.

once you get to like $500k you basically never need to work again

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pure_temper posted...

once you get to like $500k you basically never need to work again

point is they are still working at the company, "foregoing an income" to coast off their income via loans against their billions in assets and paying no tax on this

WingsOfGood posted...

point is they are still working at the company, "foregoing an income" to coast off their income via loans against their billions in assets and paying no tax on this

if you no longer need to work and are working to the point of saving 8 million in cash like that janitor, it's because you want to be working and you don't want the headache and risk of leveraging like Elon Musk did

read some books and go get some life experience

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Pretty much anyone who has their money tied in stocks isnt "paying taxes"


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pure_temper posted...

if you no longer need to work and are working to the point of saving 8 million in cash like that janitor, it's because you want to be working and you don't want the headache and risk of leveraging like Elon Musk did

Elon also get paid in stocks.

WingsOfGood posted...

Elon also get paid in stocks.

you don't get money from those unless you sell, dude. that is unrealized gains.

yes you can leverage/borrow if you have a good amount of it, but anyone can including that janitor who was a millionaire

once you get to like $200k-$500k depending on where you live, you're basically free to become whatever type of entrepreneur you want. You can try earlier than that if you are young enough to tank some risk, but anyone can do that type of stuff if you don't mind the fear/risk of leverage

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Im on board with taxing disbursed loan principal, as long as its refunded when you pay back the loan.
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g980 posted...

Im on board with taxing disbursed loan principal, as long as its refunded when you pay back the loan.

There are many ways to go about it. Problem is people are ok with them never paying taxes and rationalize it with some many weird and weak arguments as this thread has exposed.