Current Events > Texas has higher taxes on the middle class than California

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://twitter.com/mattsheffield/status/1396555949612044292
Is this messing with Texas?

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Yeah but something something liberals. Haha take that.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Yeah but something something liberals. Haha take that.

Got eeeeem

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Turns out not having an income tax means you need to rely on more regressive taxes like those on sales and property

Whoops!!

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Trickle down! Yee haw!

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I think its more concerning that almost every state has more taxes on the middle class than on the rich according to that.

What is the actual meaning of those numbers? That the middle class are taxed on a higher % of their income than rich people are?

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Dunno. It was great for me when I lived there. No state income tax and I didn't own any property for the increased property tax to affect me.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

That the middle class are taxed on a higher % of their income than rich people are?

yes

Conservatives only care about rich people and businesses. Everyone else is invisible to them. Im honestly baffled why so many regular folks could support them

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I doubt middle class people are leaving Cali due to income taxes. Its more likely due to outrageous house prices.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

I think its more concerning that almost every state has more taxes on the middle class than on the rich according to that.

What is the actual meaning of those numbers? That the middle class are taxed on a higher % of their income than rich people are?

Yep.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

What is the actual meaning of those numbers? That the middle class are taxed on a higher % of their income than rich people are?

Because, most not-income taxes are flat amounts or not income-based.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Because, most not-income taxes are flat amounts or not income-based.

It's not just that the sales tax doesn't discriminate based on income, it's that people with lower income spend a larger share of their income (vs the wealthy investing and saving)

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I don't know why he made this California vs. Texas. I just counted and there are at least 44 states where this is the case.

In fact there are only 3 states (California, Delaware, Hawaii) where this definitely isnt the case. This is a national trend.

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Just note that the color scales are different across those two maps, so you can't just compare color and count.

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No state income tax will do that to people.

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Clutch posted...

I doubt middle class people are leaving Cali due to income taxes. Its more likely due to outrageous house prices.

This. Sure gas is expensive but I can avoid that to an extent if I buy gas from Costco at a discount. Most other things aren't much different than other places.

But I can't get around the obscene housing cost. Even a major fixer upper is worth more than a turnkey house of the same size in another state.

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COVxy posted...

Just note that the color scales are different across those two maps, so you can't just compare color and count.

wtf why would they do that?

The differences are still great enough that you can claim this for most of those states, though

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Clutch posted...

I doubt middle class people are leaving Cali due to income taxes. Its more likely due to outrageous house prices.

outrageous house prices are all over. at least here in SE michigan

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Damn_Underscore posted...

wtf why would they do that?

Pretty clear why. That's not to discount the primary thesis here. But "data" is just a rhetorical device in these contexts. People should be aware.

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Better stay in Cali then!!

Oh wait.....

But Cali is still worse overall for middle class people

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Yeah but something something liberals. Haha take that.

Lets put into context a few things. The cost of living in the majority of Texas and the property taxes pales in comparison to states like California, NY and New Jersey which are blue run.

so the dollar goes a far long way in Texas than it does in those states.

Its also why assuming everyones income value is the same across the board is a problem with how taxation works.

100k in bum fuck Idaho is worth a lot more than in NYC.

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krazychao5 posted...

outrageous house prices are all over. at least here in SE michigan

If you think the housing prices in SE Michigan compare to the prices in Cali I dont know what to tell you.

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COVxy posted...

Pretty clear why. That's not to discount the primary thesis here. But "data" is just a rhetorical device in these contexts. People should be aware.

What's the clear reason why? If you did both using the same color scheme, it would make the argument look stronger because the equivalent shade for the wealthy map is shifted one down (4 for the rich is the color of 5 for the middle class, etc)

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compared what my income taxes would look like in california with my property taxes in texas and i'd be paying at least 11% more in california.

conversely, at last year's income i'd be paying up to 7% less in california.

however, accounting for both income tax and property tax i'd be paying significantly more in california at both income levels.

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Clutch posted...

If you think the housing prices in SE Michigan compare to the prices in Cali I dont know what to tell you.

ive been looking and comparing home prices to where I live in California to that upstate New York, the prices I saw listed for upstate New York is a lot cheaper than whats listed in California.

not only that, but property taxes are also a lot. I pay about $350/month on property tax. For $350 I can rent a fully furnished apartment/condo in Southeast Asia and live comfortably

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Balrog0 posted...

What's the clear reason why? If you did both using the same color scheme, it would make the argument look stronger because the equivalent shade for the wealthy map is shifted one down (4 for the rich is the color of 5 for the middle class, etc)

I need more coffee. The same percentage is lighter in the wealthy map, and the idea is that the lighter color indicates lower percentage. Meaning that this biases it in the direction of wealthier seemingly having lower taxes than they do, in a relative manner.

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Tag our Texans, I know we have a few.

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chrono625 posted...

100k in bum fuck Idaho is worth a lot more than in NYC.

Sure but how many 100k jobs exist in bum fuck Idaho?

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theAteam posted...

Sure but how many 100k jobs exist in bum fuck Idaho?

it was just a point I was trying to convey.

I could very easily sell my assets where I live. Buy a beautiful new home somewhere else in full. Having a cheaper QOL. And still have cash left over.

I understand the pay of jobs in these areas is completely relative. But if you work for a national company the pay is comparable.

i have a friend who is currently employed by a large financial company who is relocating him to Texas and hes looking at homes that are half the cost and twice the size compared to where he is now. While maintaining his current salary.

thats all anecdotal but you get the point.

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My hunch is they did this because of the data available. State taxes are generally regressive so the poor generally pay more than the wealthy so the relative scales are a bit different
chrono625 posted...

Its also why assuming everyones income value is the same across the board is a problem with how taxation works.

This is incorrect. It's based on income quintile within each state

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Balrog0 posted...

My hunch is they did this because of the data available. State taxes are generally regressive so the poor generally pay more than the wealthy so the relative scales are a bit different

It certainly could have been a happy accident with autoscaling. But at the very least, people displaying data should have minimum knowledge to set the scale for any graphs that you are asking people to directly compare (there are a few exceptions, but this case is obvious). At the minimum, it's sloppy data science. But I don't think the majority of people who write these kinds of articles care so much about the data.

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Clutch posted...

If you think the housing prices in SE Michigan compare to the prices in Cali I dont know what to tell you.

never said they were, just that housing prices are outrageous everywhere. and homes are going 10-20% higher than listing prices.

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chrono625 posted...

thats all anecdotal but you get the point.

Yes and even further to your point is the amount of people that are now remote being able to live basically anywhere. For instance my office was shut down permanently and I am now a remote worker. I live in socal but there's nothing technically stopping me from moving to a cheaper state. My girlfriend practices law in CA which does stop me but you get the point, and there's probably millions of people in a similar situation.

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theAteam posted...

Yes and even further to your point is the amount of people that are now remote being able to live basically anywhere. For instance my office was shut down permanently and I am now a remote worker. I live in socal but there's nothing technically stopping me from moving to a cheaper state. My girlfriend practices law in CA which does stop me but you get the point, and there's probably millions of people in a similar situation.

part of the reason the housing market is so hot right now.

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krazychao5 posted...

part of the reason the housing market is so hot right now.

Every market is hot right now, except hand sanitizer. Looked at used car prices lately?
"Holyshit, I can go out and buy things again" = Buy all the things!

Balrog0 posted...

This is incorrect. It's based on income quintile within each state

I think my point was that politicians have this crazy mindset that 100k in a low average income state has the same purchasing power as 100k in a California, NY or NJ.

hence why taxes are usually skewed and unfair depending on where you live.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Every market is hot right now, except hand sanitizer. Looked at used car prices lately?
"Holyshit, I can go out and buy things again" = Buy all the things!

Honestly I think a lot of it is inflation being priced into the economy. Otherwise I don't really understand it. I always thought cars were an awful investment.

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theAteam posted...

Honestly I think a lot of it is inflation being priced into the economy.

That too. Flooding the economy with cash will do that.

Ah man the color scheme is just confusing me. But I think the map is skewed the other way? If a 0-4 for the wealthy is the same shade as 0-5 for the poor, and the wealthy have another shade for 4-5 that's darker, doesn't that make taxes on the wealthy look higher than they and undercut the argument they're making? If every state hypothetically had an effective 5 percent tax on the middle and a 4 percent tax on the wealthy, they'd have the same shade even though the middle class are paying more. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.

chrono625 posted...

I think my point was that politicians have this crazy mindset that 100k in a low average income state has the same purchasing power as 100k in a California, NY or NJ.

hence why taxes are usually skewed and unfair depending on where you live.

I'm just saying this is based on what the averages are in each state

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theAteam posted...

Honestly I think a lot of it is inflation being priced into the economy. Otherwise I don't really understand it. I always thought cars were an awful investment.

cars ARE an awful investment. This is an anomaly.

people who were/are fleeing major cities to suburbs need vehicles now. The increased price on used cars will go down again once life normalizes more.

but to me, the ridiculous increase on the cost of building materials hurts more.

standard fir 2x4x8 is $8 up from $2-2.50 pre pandemic.

Sheet of fire rated 3/4 ply is $100~ a sheet up from $70-80.

Metals of all kind are in high demand and price, even for scrappers.

its absolute madness right now. If youre building a home or taking on a huge renovation your cost doubled in just material.

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Balrog0 posted...

Ah man the color scheme is just confusing me. But I think the map is skewed the other way? If a 0-4 for the wealthy is the same shade as 0-5 for the poor, and the wealthy have another shade for 4-5 that's darker, doesn't that make taxes on the wealthy look higher than they and undercut the argument they're making? If every state hypothetically had an effective 5 percent tax on the middle and a 4 percent tax on the wealthy, they'd have the same shade even though the middle class are paying more. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.

Here's how I convinced myself I'm right:

1. The primary difference between the maps is that the wealthy map looks lighter blue, indicated lower percentage right?
2. If we kept the scale the same and replaced the data with uniform values (say 11%) across the two maps, the wealthy map would look lighter, despite that they have the same data.

But another thing that was confusing here is that they haven't actually clearly labeled their colormap values. Like each of the displayed colors has a discrete value attached to it, but they placed the percentage like in-between the colors rather than labeling the colors? Looks they just shifted the labels over to make it analogous to a number line, but that makes it fucking confusing.

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chrono625 posted...

Metals of all kind are in high demand and price, even for scrappers.

So... now's a good time to cash in my basement full of beer cans?

Whereas if every state had a 5 percent tax on both, the wealthy map would be a shade darker even though it was the same rate.

Either way I think the confusing est part is that they sort of converge but at a weird point and not obvious when exactly

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Questionmarktarius posted...

So... now's a good time to cash in my basement full of beer cans?

lmao actually yes it would.

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COVxy posted...

If we kept the scale the same and replaced the data with uniform values (say 11%) across the two maps, the wealthy map would look lighter, despite that they have the same data.

I think it depends where in the number line you do your replacement... Like, if you do it at 5 (my example) the wealthy map looks darker

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