Current Events > Palestine supporters: Do you support Hamas?

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Antifar posted...

The US is and has been the obstacle to the UN doing anything.

I'm fully aware of this. I think the United States needs to change its policy.

But that starts with being honest about Israel and Hamas, instead of blindly supporting Israel or "Palestine."

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Smashingpmkns posted...

Maybe learn how to read

The conversation became this way because you kept beckoning for ok but are they right when no one was initially discussing this

You really want a single side to come out the winner like its really like that and you facilitated your wording until the issue became an either or thing

What kind of shit is that honestly lol

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Imagine openly being a hamas apologist.

If you want to criticize Israel for the evictions in a vacuum fine, but you should stick to that point cause you're clearly out of your depth here.

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The whole premise of this topic is disingenuous because it's framed as if the people that support Palestinians and are against the terroristic actions of Israel have a favorable opinion of Hamas. The existence of Hamas does not make any of what Israel is doing right or any support of Palestine misguided.

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NinjaWarrior455 posted...

The whole premise of this topic is disingenuous because it's framed as if the people that support Palestinians and are against the terroristic actions of Israel have a favorable opinion of Hamas. The existence of Hamas does not make any of what Israel is doing right or any support of Palestine misguided.

Nah believing Palestine doesn't deserve to live in fear of ethnic cleansing makes you a Hamas apologist.
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None of this will change until people are willing to differentiate Hamas controlled Gaza from "Palestine"

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Smashingpmkns posted...

Nah believing Palestine doesn't deserve to live in fear of ethnic cleansing makes you a Hamas apologist.

Doesn't Hamas (historically, they "changed" their doctrine somewhat recently) believe in the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people? In your opinion, shouldn't Israel also be able to not live in fear of ethnic cleansing by a terrorist organization that has the ability to target their own people?

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Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

Doesn't Hamas (historically, they "changed" their doctrine somewhat recently) believe in the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people? In your opinion, shouldn't Israel also be able to not live in fear of ethnic cleansing by a terrorist organization that has the ability to target their own people?

there is no threat of ethnic cleansing from hamas, and to claim there is completely erases the imbalance of power in palestine. israel not only has overwhelming military power in Palestine but is actively using that power to commit genocide against palestinians, and a central part of israeli propaganda is the racist notion that palestinians are murderous antisemites who will take any opportunity to kill jews, and that israeli apartheid and the military's routine mass murder of palestinians is necessary to prevent mass killings of israeli jews.

of course this is utterly false, and I'm sure you know it's false, but when you treat those sort of hypotheticals as if they're a serious possibility, that's implicitly adopting the framing of that propaganda

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DarkRoast posted...

No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"

That's kind of a fair question at this point.

I'm sorry, but that reads the same as saying that people who hate Jews wouldn't exist if there were no Jews.

<_<

Hamas would probably not exist today were it not for Israel. The Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian religious extremists in the late 1970s into one of the worlds most notorious militant groups.

Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian extremist movement as a counterweight to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as a creature of Israel.)

The Israeli government gave me a budget, the retired brigadier general confessed, and the military government gives to the mosques.

Hamas, to my great regret, is Israels creation, Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing the extremists against Palestinian secularists. I suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face, he wrote. They didnt listen to him and the result was Hamas.

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FortuneCookie posted...

That's kind of a fair question at this point.

it's a completely disingenuous comparison though. Hamas formed because of a colonized people being radicalized and fighting back against their oppressors

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shockthemonkey posted...

...what?

Should I simplify it by saying that we should stop calling a territory that isn't even controlled by Palestine "Palestine"

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shockthemonkey posted...

Its the area that Palestinians live. Youre just playing a weird word game.

It's not a weird word game.

Hamas controls Gaza. Not Palestine.

It's like saying America controls Mexico because Americans live in Puerto Vallarta.


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shockthemonkey posted...

No, its not like that at all.

Gaza is not controlled by Palestine. It's controlled by Hamas. In Israeli territory. Those are facts.

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averagejoel posted...

it's a completely disingenuous comparison though. Hamas formed because of a colonized people being radicalized and fighting back against their oppressors

It's they're ancestral homeland.

Palestine has a right to exist, but so does Israel. There's enough land for both peoples. This shouldn't be a conflict.

Honestly this seems like a bait topic TC. Youve never struck me as someone ignorant enough to post something like this.

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DarkRoast posted...

Gaza is not controlled by Palestine. It's controlled by Hamas. In Israeli territory. Those are facts.

Are you saying that Hamas has no power in Palestine or vice versa?

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itachi15243 posted...

Are you saying that Hamas has no power in Palestine or vice versa?

Yes, actually.

The PLO and Hamas are literally at war.

Hamas is no more of a representative of Palestine than Mike Lindell is the President of the United States.

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DarkRoast posted...

Israel's presence in that territory is justified by the United Nations itself considering it a part of Israel that was never formally ceded.

If you want to use the UN, asthe final word. Then you should take their word when they talk about Israel War crimes and stealing land.

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cjsdowg posted...

If you want to use the UN, asthe final word. Then you should take their word when they talk about Israel War crimes and stealing land.

I also take their word when they say Hamas is a terrorist organization, and their word that terrorist organizations are not allowed to possess state-like territories.

Their charade of pretending to be Palestine needs to end, or this will keep happening over and over and over.

The solution is either the UN demands Hamas cede control to Israel, and Israel negotiate control to Palestine

Or

UN security forces and UN member armed forces remove Hamas

The best outcome for everyone involved is Israel has a terrorist network removed from its proximity, and Palestine gets its territory back.

But the fact remains, no matter which side of this issue anyone is on, nothing can be done without first removing hamas.

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DarkRoast posted...

The solution is either the UN demands Hamas cede control to Israel, and Israel negotiate control to Palestine

WHat in the ever loving fuck.

But the fact remains, no matter which side of this issue anyone is on, nothing can be done without first removing hamas.

Fuck that shit. Hamas didn't start this last round of stuff, Israel did.


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cjsdowg posted...

WHat in the ever loving fuck.

But the fact remains, no matter which side of this issue anyone is on, nothing can be done without first removing hamas.

Fuck that shit. Hamas didn't start this last round of stuff, Israel did.

Hamas is a -literal- terrorist group.

Merely existing within Israeli territory makes them an aggressor by definition. That doesn't make Israel the good guy as I said before. But no excuses should be made for their existence simply because they pretend to be Palestine.

And, to be completely frank, making excuses for their existence hurts Palestine more than it hurts Israel, and that's perhaps the saddest thing of all. It's exactly how Hamas continues to exist and continues to possess a territory that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians.

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Yeah stop demonizing Hamas!

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DarkRoast posted...

Merely existing within Israeli territory makes them an aggressor by definition. That doesn't make Israel the good guy as I said before. But no excuses should be made for their existence simply because they pretend to be Palestine.

So they steal land and say oh these bad guys are in our land. So they are the aggressors .Fuck that .

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cjsdowg posted...

So they steal land and say oh these bad guys are in our land. So they are the aggressors .Fuck that .

Hamas stole Gaza from Palestine fyi.

They are literally the bad guys to both sides.

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metallica846 posted...

Well Israel better get moving on taking over Palestine and giving it back to the Palestinians then.

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metallica846 posted...

Yes I see the quotes on the picture you keep posting. Would you say those quotes are because Hamas is a terrorist organization and they get lumped together?

Remove the tumor that is Hamas and go from there.

No most people would say that because of Israelis racism to other people. Even black Jewish people. Also also. .. You are literally using the excuses that terroist give when they attack innocent people. Congratulations.

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I guess my thing is... if this is an illegal occupation by a terrorist organization of Palestinian land and the United Nations states it as so... why is the United Nations not doing literally anything?

Can we all agree that at the very least the terrorist organization that literally uses human shields should not control the Gaza Strip?

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I frankly do not give a s*** about whether or not Israel gets Gaza back. What I do care about is Hamas not getting a free ride to pretend it's Palestine when it isn't.

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Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

Can we all agree that at the very least the terrorist organization that literally uses human shields should not control the Gaza Strip?

That human shield bullshit is a lie to defend Israel killing children. And yeah Hamas is bad, but they use so are the group who are killing children .

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cjsdowg posted...

That human shield bullshit is a lie to defend Israel killing children .

As opposed to every other nation in existence, does Hamas not put their leadership underneath schools, hospitals, and other support systems like that? Is that incorrect?

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Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

Can we all agree that at the very least the terrorist organization that literally uses human shields should not control the Gaza Strip?

This has been dismissed as IDF propaganda by multiple groups including *the Bush administration in 2002* which again points to your topic seeming like disingenuous bait.

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FortuneCookie posted...

It's they're ancestral homeland.

Palestine has a right to exist, but so does Israel. There's enough land for both peoples. This shouldn't be a conflict.

this has zero relevance to what I was talking about: the comparison to the KKK is completely insane

an actual comparison to Hamas in the US would be like, a group of indigenous americans fighting back against colonizers in the 1600s or so

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Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

As opposed to every other nation in existence, does Hamas not put their leadership underneath schools, hospitals, and other support systems like that? Is that incorrect?

Of course they dont do that, theyre a perfectly legitimate organization. They have their own official buildings with the Hamas name on them in big letters. They fire their thousands of defense rockets from large empty fields so as to not endanger their own civilians.

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No, both Hamas and the Israeli government need the hammer dropped on them. They're ruining innocent lives.

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DarkRoast posted...

No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"

Such a dumb comparison. You are talking about 5000 redneck compared to leaders of a country.