Current Events > Palestine supporters: Do you support Hamas?

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Jeff AKA Snoopy
05/16/21 3:15:33 PM
#1:


I'm honestly pretty ignorant when it comes to the conflict but it kinda seems like Hamas are not exactly great.

I have no issues with Palestine at all and Israel seems like they are being assholes.

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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:17:01 PM
#2:


No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"

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pure_temper
05/16/21 3:18:52 PM
#3:


Hamas is literally a terrorist group, dude. A simple google search would have told you this within seconds

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UnfairRepresent
05/16/21 3:19:54 PM
#4:


DarkRoast posted...
No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"
Not really?

More like saying America supporters support MAGA or MTG.

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kingdrake2
05/16/21 3:20:49 PM
#5:


UnfairRepresent posted...
support MAGA or MTG


screw them and the KKK fucking terrorist orginizations.
MTG is a terrorist bitch.
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Intro2Logic
05/16/21 3:25:23 PM
#6:


DarkRoast posted...
No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"
It's kinda like saying America supporters, do you support the founding fathers? You know, the folks with backwards social views who violently resisted perceived tyranny.

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Jeff AKA Snoopy
05/16/21 3:26:05 PM
#7:


And is it not Hamas that are in control of the Gaza Strip right now, not really Palestine?

Do I have that wrong?

I don't agree with Israel just invading an area they have no right to be in, but if that area is under control of terrorists, that kinda muddies the waters for me.

Again, I could be totally wrong.

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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:27:19 PM
#8:


Hamas and the actual state of Palestine are not on good terms, but have a somewhat uneasy alliance due to a common enemy.


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Crescente
05/16/21 3:27:24 PM
#9:


Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...
And is it not Hamas that are in control of the Gaza Strip right now, not really Palestine?

Correct.
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Omnislasher
05/16/21 3:29:14 PM
#10:


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averagejoel
05/16/21 3:31:20 PM
#11:


whether or not you support hamas is irrelevant. their existence is a natural consequence of israel occupying that territory.

hamas is like a prison gang. they have almost no support outside of gaza, and what power they have would likely evaporate if the people of gaza weren't imprisoned in such desperate circumstances

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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:36:17 PM
#12:


averagejoel posted...
whether or not you support hamas is irrelevant. their existence is a natural consequence of israel occupying that territory.

hamas is like a prison gang. they have almost no support outside of gaza, and what power they have would likely evaporate if the people of gaza weren't imprisoned in such desperate circumstances

Israel's presence in that territory is justified by the United Nations itself considering it a part of Israel that was never formally ceded.

The fact that Israel itself supplies Gaza City with utilities / water / etc makes things even more complicated.

Lastly, Fatah lost Gaza to Hamas back in 2007, meaning it by definition is terrorist-occupied and terrorist-governed region. Almost, but not quite, a Rogue State.

It's actually nothing short of a miracle that it even exists at all in its current form.

If we're going to be completely honest here and focus solely on the geopolitical circumstances of Gaza, as far as international law goes Gaza is literally a part of Israel. That Hamas controls it essentially creates an unavoidable conflict between Israel, Hamas and Palestine.

Israel legally cannot cede Gaza to Hamas. That would directly violate UN policy. They theoretically could cede it to Palestine, which had been floated prior to 2007. But when Palestine's political control of Gaza was lost to Hamas, that's not an option either.

So from Israel's standpoint, you have a literal terrorist state within your own country. It's kind of a no-win situation, to be honest. And none of this is written to defend Israel's actions, but to give more context to the general geopolitical situation of the region.


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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 3:43:17 PM
#13:


DarkRoast posted...
The fact that Israel itself supplies Gaza City with utilities / water / etc makes things even more complicated.

Eh Israel actively restricts water supplies and other utilities to Gaza.
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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:44:43 PM
#14:


Smashingpmkns posted...
Eh Israel actively restricts water supplies and other utilities to Gaza.

Again, this isn't about who's "right" or "wrong" or what kind of underhanded things Israel does. All I meant to point out was just the pure geopolitical reality of the situation as objectively as possible.

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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 3:46:52 PM
#15:


DarkRoast posted...
Again, this isn't about who's "right" or "wrong" or what kind of underhanded things Israel does. All I meant to point out was just the pure geopolitical reality of the situation as objectively as possible.

Well it was a disingenuous point.
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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:48:23 PM
#16:


Smashingpmkns posted...
Well it was a disingenuous point.

It's not. Israel quite literally owns Gaza's utilities and is considered politically responsible for them.

That they frequently abuse that power is a separate issue. But it's objectively true.

Israel without question is guilty of blatant human rights violations. But the fact remains that the vast, vast majority of people don't actually understand the core underlying politics involved. It's so much more complicated for everyone involved, but especially Israel and Fatah / Palestine.


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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 3:49:45 PM
#17:


How is that a separate issue and not part of the issue? Lol
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PrettyBoyFloyd
05/16/21 3:50:51 PM
#18:


The KKK is all mouth.

They're not going to attract too much attention.

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DarkRoast
05/16/21 3:52:38 PM
#19:


Smashingpmkns posted...
How is that a separate issue and not part of the issue? Lol

Because Israel does actually have the political right to do it, especially given the nature of the "state" they're allowing to exist within their own territory.

Look, it's wrong. It's ****ed up. But until the UN grows a pair of balls and straight-up runs Hamas out and gives Gaza to Palestine no-questions-asked, this is what will happen. It's literally inevitable.

If you really want to go by the UN's rulebook, Israel technically would get in trouble for harboring a terrorist state simply by allowing Hamas to exist in Gaza.

Even if Israel was 100% in the right on this issue, they're in a no-win situation.

Israel should answer for crimes against humanity, but the UN itself is allowing it to happen through its own inaction.


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Solid Snake07
05/16/21 3:55:17 PM
#20:


DarkRoast posted...
No, but this is kind of like saying "America supporters, do you support the KKK?"


Pretty sure the kkk doesn't hold majority in Congress

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Jeff AKA Snoopy
05/16/21 4:00:02 PM
#21:


Those are kinda my thoughts Dark Roast.

Palestine arguing that they "control" anything in the Gaza Strip right now is a non-starter to me. People claiming that Israel is bombing Palestine is a non-starter. They are fighting against an internationally recognized terrorist group using the Gaza Strip and the political environment in it to their advantage.

It is a huge mess that can be solver far easier if you remove Hamas from the scenario. It isn't fair to anyone in that area. It isn't fair that Israel gets bombarded with rocket attacks from a terrorist group and is then told to just be fine with it. It isn't fair that Israel uses their odd influence on the area to try and force the issue politically to get what they want. It isn't fair that Palestine has a rightful claim to this area and terrorists took it over.

At some point you have to look at the situation and figure out what to do... and I don't know if anyone wants to argue that keeping the status-quo is the thing to do.

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Zeeak4444
05/16/21 4:04:02 PM
#22:


Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...
Those are kinda my thoughts Dark Roast.

Palestine arguing that they "control" anything in the Gaza Strip right now is a non-starter to me. People claiming that Israel is bombing Palestine is a non-starter. They are fighting against an internationally recognized terrorist group using the Gaza Strip and the political environment in it to their advantage.

It is a huge mess that can be solver far easier if you remove Hamas from the scenario. It isn't fair to anyone in that area. It isn't fair that Israel gets bombarded with rocket attacks from a terrorist group and is then told to just be fine with it. It isn't fair that Israel uses their odd influence on the area to try and force the issue politically to get what they want. It isn't fair that Palestine has a rightful claim to this area and terrorists took it over.

At some point you have to look at the situation and figure out what to do... and I don't know if anyone wants to argue that keeping the status-quo is the thing to do.

I mean, for all the get rid of Hamas talk going around someone should ask how easy it was for us to remove the red guard/taliban/Al-Qaeda/ISIS from the regions.

real easy stuff.

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Broseph_Stalin
05/16/21 4:05:33 PM
#23:


Supporting Palestine or criticizing Israel does not mean they support Hamas.

But they do ignore Hamas (something Israelis can't do) to make the situation seem simpler than it is. They're not bad people they're just naive.
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Jeff AKA Snoopy
05/16/21 4:07:07 PM
#24:


Zeeak4444 posted...
I mean, for all the get rid of Hamas talk going around someone should ask how easy it was for us to remove the red guard/taliban/Al-Qaeda/ISIS from the regions.

real easy stuff.

Is the solution then to just let Hamas continue to grow in power in the region and then attack more?

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ThyCorndog
05/16/21 4:08:16 PM
#25:


I condemn Hamas. I support the Palestinian and Israeli people

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hitokoriX
05/16/21 4:10:54 PM
#26:


I support the right of the Palestinian people to defend themselves

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Arcanine2009
05/16/21 4:13:09 PM
#27:


I don't. But literally any Palestinian who defends themselves from israeli forces will be lumped in with them.

Hamas was created as a response to Israel's apartheid towards Palestine. they also don't go attacking unless provoked.

If we want to get rid of Hamas, Israel needs to be sanctioned and prevented from illegally taking land from Palestinians

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pure_temper
05/16/21 4:13:23 PM
#28:


They are trying to get rid of Hamas but it's complicated by the fact that Hamas will build their bases under schools, hospitals, etc. To increase the probability of civilian casualties for PR purposes/insurance against strikes. They store weapons, personnel, etc, in hospitals, mosques, schools.

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RedJackson
05/16/21 4:13:59 PM
#29:


Thanks @DarkRoast

Legit probably the best post Ive seen on this site regarding Israel v Palestine

everyone else on here seems to be cracked out and hell bent on just finding out who sides with who for political clout - look no further than pmpkins post lol


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TheGreatEscape
05/16/21 4:14:11 PM
#30:


Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...
Is the solution then to just let Hamas continue to grow in power in the region and then attack more?

Hamas is more than just a military organization, it does actually operate and run services. They were also elected, even if it's been a good while ago.. They have some amount of support from the people nonetheless. You can't just wish it out of existence. Israel is just fine preserving the status quo because the existence of Hamas is enough for them to just ignore any attempt at peace. They can deal with the handful of cilivians or military deaths on their side, they literally cannot "lose" this conflict in the short or even the long term. They don't give a fuck about international law, they'll respect what benefits them and ignore the rest.

Don't expect any end to this conflict in your lifetime

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Broseph_Stalin
05/16/21 4:14:19 PM
#31:


Arcanine2009 posted...
we can't deny they Hamas was created as self defense for Palestine.

This isn't true at all.
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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 4:17:56 PM
#32:


I would think being "politically in the right" to commit crimes against humanity is part of the problem. But I guess not! Lmao

Also should be said that they actually aren't "politically in the right" to commit war crimes and the UN's inaction is also part of the issue.
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DarkRoast
05/16/21 4:29:55 PM
#33:


Honestly, it does no good whatsoever to call Gaza "Palestine" because not only is it incorrect from a geopolitical sense, it's also incorrect even from a purely Palestinian standpoint. People do need to know the actual geopolitical reality of the situation, even if they ultimately still agree with the Palestinian struggle in the region. The fact of the matter is that the actual state of Palestine has literally no control or influence on the region, and that fact alone makes the concept of ceasefires almost impossible without direct UN involvement.

The only solution to this problem is to simultaneously call out Israel's atrocities while also advocating for Hamas's removal, and merely advocating for one or the other will only perpetuate this cycle.


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Solid Snake07
05/16/21 4:31:29 PM
#34:


Don't know why people are collectively pretending hamas isn't willfully sacrificing the Palestinian people by launching rockets they know won't even hit and will result in retaliation.

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pure_temper
05/16/21 4:32:19 PM
#35:


Solid Snake07 posted...
Don't know why people are collectively pretending hamas isn't willfully sacrificing the Palestinian people by launching rockets they know won't even hit and will result in retaliation.

we know why

those people are tankies / regressive left / anti semites

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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 4:33:56 PM
#36:


Solid Snake07 posted...
Don't know why people are collectively pretending hamas isn't willfully sacrificing the Palestinian people by launching rockets they know won't even hit and will result in retaliation.

You're pretending that Hamas was the aggressor in all of this.
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DarkRoast
05/16/21 4:35:40 PM
#37:


Smashingpmkns posted...
You're pretending that Hamas was the aggressor in all of this.

You're pretending that Hamas is not a terrorist group occupying another state illegally.

They are the aggressor by their very existence. That doesn't mean Israel is the "good guy."

But Hamas has no right to exist there. Literally by United Nations rules, either Israel must remove them or the UN itself must help to remove them. This half-assed appeasement crap will always end in violence.

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iPhone_7
05/16/21 4:38:13 PM
#38:


The CIA/Mossad had the opportunity to take out Hamas leadership but didnt take it. Then in 2007 the Palestinian people voted them in as their government. Democracy

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Jeff AKA Snoopy
05/16/21 4:38:37 PM
#39:


DarkRoast posted...
You're pretending that Hamas is not a terrorist group occupying another state illegally.

They are the aggressor by their very existence. That doesn't mean Israel is the "good guy."


This.

"Israel attempts to take land occupied by Hamas" is exactly as correct as "Israel attempts to take land from Palestinians".

Each has different connotation.

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Solid Snake07
05/16/21 4:39:29 PM
#40:


Smashingpmkns posted...
You're pretending that Hamas was the aggressor in all of this.


As far as launching missiles they were absolutely the aggressors. As they always are.

Hamas knows the only leverage they have here is to make Israel look bad for an arguably heavy handed retaliation.

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DarkRoast
05/16/21 4:40:07 PM
#41:


iPhone_7 posted...
The CIA/Mossad had the opportunity to take out Hamas leadership but didnt take it. Then in 2007 the Palestinian people voted them in as their government. Democracy

In 2007 Hamas literally declared war on Fatah.


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DarkRoast
05/16/21 4:40:58 PM
#42:


Hamas not only knows what it's doing, but is deliberately trying to have Israel react like this. It's what Hamas wants. It's their goal. And Israel, having little regard for human rights, is more than willing to fall for it.

But what Hamas really wants is for the outside world to say "Israel is committing atrocities on Palestinians" and every single time this happens, we fall for it.

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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 4:41:11 PM
#43:


DarkRoast posted...
They are the aggressor by their very existence.

This entire incident started because Israel was evicting people from their homes and then attacked a mosque during Ramadan. It didn't start because Hamas exists.
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RedJackson
05/16/21 4:41:18 PM
#44:


Smashingpmkns posted...
You're pretending that Hamas was the aggressor in all of this.

stop Israeling the guy, hes just stating info on the situation and youre over here shooting bazookas for no reason

Ok so what youre saying is _____/Ok but that means you agree with then

textbook CE when it comes down to politics


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Antifar
05/16/21 4:42:37 PM
#45:


DarkRoast posted...
Hamas not only knows what it's doing, but is deliberately trying to have Israel react like this. It's what Hamas wants. It's their goal. And Israel, having little regard for human rights, is more than willing to fall for it.
Maybe Israel, if it is concerned about Hamas, should stop doing what they want.

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Solid Snake07
05/16/21 4:43:39 PM
#46:


Smashingpmkns posted...
This entire incident started because Israel was evicting people from their homes and then attacked a mosque during Ramadan. It didn't start because Hamas exists.


You realize this didn't all begin a week ago right?

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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 4:43:44 PM
#47:


Solid Snake07 posted...
As far as launching missiles they were absolutely the aggressors. As they always are.

The missiles were in response to an attack on Al-Aqsa mosque, and before they fired missiles they sent a warning to Israel to stop attacking them and to leave or else they would retaliate. If you believe Israel has a right to defend themselves but Palestine does not then I dunno why we're even discussing this.
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DarkRoast
05/16/21 4:44:27 PM
#48:


Antifar posted...
Maybe Israel, if it is concerned about Hamas, should stop doing what they want.

Maybe the United Nations should step in and do its job, then. That's the problem. Israel and Hamas are both bad guys. The United Nations are supposed to be the good guys. By doing nothing, they are the real aggressors.

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Smashingpmkns
05/16/21 4:45:39 PM
#49:


RedJackson posted...
stop Israeling the guy, hes just stating info on the situation and youre over here shooting bazookas for no reason

Ok so what youre saying is _____/Ok but that means you agree with then

textbook CE when it comes down to politics

Maybe learn how to read
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Antifar
05/16/21 4:46:21 PM
#50:


DarkRoast posted...
The United Nations are supposed to be the good guys. By doing nothing, they are the real aggressors.
The US is and has been the obstacle to the UN doing anything.

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