Current Events > I have never seen a good argument for why "piracy" is immoral.

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WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:02:22 PM #51:	Giant_Aspirin posted... https://www.dictionary.com/browse/steal to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: There is no property exchanged. Games are seen as licenses which means pirating or even buying the game doesn't change hands of any property. <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952756560] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>https://www.dictionary.com/browse/steal to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force:</quote> There is no property exchanged. Games are seen as licenses which means pirating or even buying the game doesn't change hands of any property. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:03:17 PM #52:	Doe posted... In that scenario, the writer has already been compensated. what about situations where the writer is given performance based compensation? ie bonus / etc paid out based on # of copies sold? also that doesn't justify stealing from the owner, even if that's not the writer --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756587] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>In that scenario, the writer has already been compensated.</quote> what about situations where the writer is given performance based compensation? ie bonus / etc paid out based on # of copies sold? also that doesn't justify stealing from the owner, even if that's not the writer </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:04:02 PM #53:	WingsOfGood posted... There is no property exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property Intellectual property is a type of property. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756608] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>There is no property exchanged.</quote> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property Intellectual property is a type of property. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:07:08 PM #54:	Giant_Aspirin posted... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property Intellectual property is a type of property. So when I pirate a game, I now own their IP? Do you understand what owning an ip means? It means I can sue them for making money off the IP I own. It means I can change canon and make sequels and legally sell them. Say it with me: there is no exchange of property. Not physical, not intellectual. <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952756705] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property Intellectual property is a type of property.</quote> So when I pirate a game, I now own their IP? Do you understand what owning an ip means? It means I can sue them for making money off the IP I own. It means I can change canon and make sequels and legally sell them. Say it with me: there is no exchange of property. Not physical, not intellectual. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Machete 04/12/21 4:08:13 PM #55:	Pogo_Marimo posted... And, for the utter love of all things holy, since people on this board don't understand how analogies fucking work, let me clarify: All that changes when you switch the selling of stolen labor versus the consuming of stolen labor is the scale. Don't have a motherfucking stroke over it... And where would that labor have gone had it not been stolen? --- I do not receive notifications, so using the @ feature will not do anything. I might see your post and respond though if I have already been in the topic. <cite>Machete posted [p:952756748] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Pogo_Marimo posted...</cite> <quote> And, for the utter love of all things holy, since people on this board don't understand how analogies fucking work, let me clarify: All that changes when you switch the selling of stolen labor versus the consuming of stolen labor is the scale. </quote> Don't have a motherfucking stroke over it... And where would that labor have gone had it not been stolen?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Doe 04/12/21 4:08:52 PM #56:	Giant_Aspirin posted... it's taking away a potential customer because you just acquired a copy for free without consent from the owner. would you sneak into a theme park or a museum and justify that as not being theft since you didn't actually "take" anyone's ticket away? Potential sales don't exist. There are just sales. If I was going to go to your museum but a billboard for a theme park caught my eye and I went there instead, should the museum be able to sue the theme park for damages? Obviously not. You have the right to remove someone from your land if you don't want them there. That extends to people not paying to access your private property. Land is a limited physical quantity and someone taking up space in an exhibit or ride is denying that space to other people and the property owner. --- https://imgur.com/u5kY6Yt https://imgur.com/V6HBhkR <cite>Doe posted [p:952756774] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>it's taking away a potential customer because you just acquired a copy for free without consent from the owner. would you sneak into a theme park or a museum and justify that as not being theft since you didn't actually "take" anyone's ticket away?</quote>Potential sales don't exist. There are just sales. If I was going to go to your museum but a billboard for a theme park caught my eye and I went there instead, should the museum be able to sue the theme park for damages? Obviously not. You have the right to remove someone from your land if you don't want them there. That extends to people not paying to access your private property. Land is a limited physical quantity and someone taking up space in an exhibit or ride is denying that space to other people and the property owner. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:09:13 PM #57:	WingsOfGood posted... So when I pirate a game, I now own their IP? no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission. WingsOfGood posted... Do you understand what owning an ip means? yes, and copyright is a form of IP. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html you're violating their copyright by illegally copying their works without their permission. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756787] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>So when I pirate a game, I now own their IP?</quote> no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission. WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>Do you understand what owning an ip means?</quote> yes, and copyright is a form of IP. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html you're violating their copyright by illegally copying their works without their permission. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:10:02 PM #58:	Giant_Aspirin posted... in the case of video games the publisher owns the rights and that's who piracy is stealing from. fine, you win on a minor pedantic detail. you're stealing from people who own the rights to the game/movie/work but, really, does that affect this argument in any way? its still theft. They own the rights and still do. Games are licensed out. Think of it like timeshare except that everyone can share it at the same time. Funny how people actually let relatives friends use a timeshare and no one calls that theft. <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952756807] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>in the case of video games the publisher owns the rights and that's who piracy is stealing from. fine, you win on a minor pedantic detail. you're stealing from people who own the rights to the game/movie/work but, really, does that affect this argument in any way? its still theft.</quote> They own the rights and still do. Games are licensed out. Think of it like timeshare except that everyone can share it at the same time. Funny how people actually let relatives friends use a timeshare and no one calls that theft. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:11:38 PM #59:	Doe posted... You have the right to remove someone from your land if you don't want them there. That extends to people not paying to access your private property. Land is a limited physical quality and someone taking up space in an exhibit or ride is denying that space to other people and the property owner. and you also have the right to prevent unauthorized copying of your copyrighted works. which is what all these companies are doing when they go after entitled pirates. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756864] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>You have the right to remove someone from your land if you don't want them there. That extends to people not paying to access your private property. Land is a limited physical quality and someone taking up space in an exhibit or ride is denying that space to other people and the property owner.</quote> and you also have the right to prevent unauthorized copying of your copyrighted works. which is what all these companies are doing when they go after entitled pirates. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:11:44 PM #60:	Giant_Aspirin posted... no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission. If I don't own their IP how did I steal it? I either become the IP owner or I don't. How do you steal something and not own it after stealing it? <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952756868] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission.</quote> If I don't own their IP how did I steal it? I either become the IP owner or I don't. How do you steal something and not own it after stealing it? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wetterdew 04/12/21 4:12:03 PM #61:	WingsOfGood posted... Wrong Devs already got paid. They don't set the asking price. You are not stealing from the people who actually worked to make the game. The money the publisher paid to the devs to make the game you stole came from the money they earned on their last game. The money you are supposed to pay for the game you pirated would go toward their upcoming projects. this is how game development is sustained. in other words, just because you aren't retroactively paying for game X doesn't mean the money you pay isn't still going toward sustaining the developers and the studio. Like do you realize that just because the transaction is a bit more abstract than what you're used to at a grocery store doesn't mean your money isn't still being used to fund the projects? Just admit you're cheap and you want to take it without paying, trying to justify it is dumb unless the games are unavailable to reasonably buy --- Talking about video games? it's ok to just disagree with each other on the internet. No point getting hostile or snide about it <cite>Wetterdew posted [p:952756879] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>Wrong Devs already got paid. They don't set the asking price. You are not stealing from the people who actually worked to make the game.</quote>The money the publisher paid to the devs to make the game you stole came from the money they earned on their last game. The money you are supposed to pay for the game you pirated would go toward their upcoming projects. this is how game development is sustained. in other words, just because you aren't retroactively paying for game X doesn't mean the money you pay isn't still going toward sustaining the developers and the studio. Like do you realize that just because the transaction is a bit more abstract than what you're used to at a grocery store doesn't mean your money isn't still being used to fund the projects? Just admit you're cheap and you want to take it without paying, trying to justify it is dumb unless the games are unavailable to reasonably buy </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Doe 04/12/21 4:12:14 PM #62:	Giant_Aspirin posted... no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission. yes, and copyright is a form of IP. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html you're violating their copyright by illegally copying their works without their permission. Reminder from the OP: laws as written are not a substitute for moral justification. How the government defines copyright or IP is irrelevant to whether pirating a game is morally wrong. Giant_Aspirin posted... what about situations where the writer is given performance based compensation? ie bonus / etc paid out based on # of copies sold? Doe posted... Of course you'll say "but that makes selling digital goods as commodities unfeasible." And that's true, but it's irrelevant. There are alternative ways to fund artistic production, like public arts funding or kickstarters. --- https://imgur.com/u5kY6Yt https://imgur.com/V6HBhkR <cite>Doe posted [p:952756881] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>no. but you did steal their IP by gaining access to it without their permission. yes, and copyright is a form of IP. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html you're violating their copyright by illegally copying their works without their permission.</quote>Reminder from the OP: laws as written are not a substitute for moral justification. How the government defines copyright or IP is irrelevant to whether pirating a game is morally wrong. Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>what about situations where the writer is given performance based compensation? ie bonus / etc paid out based on # of copies sold?</quote> Doe posted... </cite> <quote>Of course you'll say "but that makes selling digital goods as commodities unfeasible." And that's true, but it's irrelevant. There are alternative ways to fund artistic production, like public arts funding or kickstarters.</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Pogo_Marimo 04/12/21 4:13:09 PM #63:	Fine. I'll spell this out in as juvenile and remedially as possible for the mental midgets of GameFAQS. Books and software both require effort to make. Someone has to be smart enough or talented enough to know how to make them, then spend years making them. Because of the effort involved, we consider the output of this effort "Intellectual Property". Intellectual Property is a concept modern societies use in order to encourage the production of non-physical commodities like software, designs, inventions, novels, movies, ect. by allowing the owner of the Intellectual Property to exploit them at their sole discretion, in whatever way they view as "exploiting". If someone were to steal your intellectual property and sell it as their own, or distributing the IP for free, this would infringe on your right to that property. People do not have a right to consume your IP. If you wrote a book and wanted no one to ever buy a copy of it either, you could publish it and refuse all distribution efforts. That is your right because you own the IP. It's not about profiting. It's about ownership. And yes, I know there is nuance about how long your ownership lasts if you're not using it, but that's not relevant here. That's legal specification, not basic ethic principles. Because you're the one who put all that effort into making it. So you own it. And you can do whatever you want with it. Not the person stealing it. This principle holds true no matter how small the scale gets. If you personally go to the game development studio and download the entire game on to a hard drive and walk out, and only use the copy of the game for your own entertainment, it is still a violation of the actual owner's right to the property. Same for a book. Same for a movie. Same for an invention. Whether these cases would warrant a civil lawsuit, or what the extent of the punishment should be are matters of nuance. Whether the creator of an IP should have sole legal discretion of their product is not. And since people think semantics are a good approach to disproving this, piracy and illegal distribution are both the same ethical violation, i.e. violation of copyright, the approach and scale are just different. The fundamental ethical violation, the violation of a copyright, or more simply, the violation of the rights of a owner of property, are still the legal basis. I'll make another analogy to utterly befuddle the feeble-minded. Image the government is giving away free, private land to any person who will develop the land in any way whatsoever. So you agree, and you get 5 acres in the middle of the desert, and you turn spend 5 years turning it into a beautiful private garden. The government is satisfied with your development, gives you sole ownership of the land, and says "It's yours for as long as you please do with however you please". As YOUR LAND, you choose to never allow any visitors. Is it okay for people to climb the garden fence and wander through YOUR GARDEN as long as they don't break anything and clean up after themselves? --- 'Cause you know that I have no fear, ain't gonna walk into the river and disappear. I'm gonna be a powerful man. Red blood running down the broken sand. <cite>Pogo_Marimo posted [p:952756901] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Fine. I'll spell this out in as juvenile and remedially as possible for the mental midgets of GameFAQS. Books and software both require effort to make. Someone has to be smart enough or talented enough to know how to make them, then spend years making them. Because of the effort involved, we consider the output of this effort "Intellectual Property". Intellectual Property is a concept modern societies use in order to encourage the production of non-physical commodities like software, designs, inventions, novels, movies, ect. by allowing the owner of the Intellectual Property to exploit them at their sole discretion, in whatever way they view as "exploiting". If someone were to steal your intellectual property and sell it as their own, or distributing the IP for free, this would infringe on your right to that property. People do not have a right to consume your IP. If you wrote a book and wanted no one to ever buy a copy of it either, you could publish it and refuse all distribution efforts. That is your right because you own the IP. It's not about profiting. It's about ownership. And yes, I know there is nuance about how long your ownership lasts if you're not using it, but that's not relevant here. That's legal specification, not basic ethic principles. Because you're the one who put all that effort into making it. So you own it. And you can do whatever you want with it. Not the person stealing it. This principle holds true no matter how small the scale gets. If you personally go to the game development studio and download the entire game on to a hard drive and walk out, and only use the copy of the game for your own entertainment, it is still a violation of the actual owner's right to the property. Same for a book. Same for a movie. Same for an invention. Whether these cases would warrant a civil lawsuit, or what the extent of the punishment should be are matters of nuance. Whether the creator of an IP should have sole legal discretion of their product is not. And since people think semantics are a good approach to disproving this, piracy and illegal distribution are both the same ethical violation, i.e. violation of copyright, the approach and scale are just different. The fundamental ethical violation, the violation of a copyright, or more simply, the violation of the rights of a owner of property, are still the legal basis. I'll make another analogy to utterly befuddle the feeble-minded. Image the government is giving away free, private land to any person who will develop the land in any way whatsoever. So you agree, and you get 5 acres in the middle of the desert, and you turn spend 5 years turning it into a beautiful private garden. The government is satisfied with your development, gives you sole ownership of the land, and says "It's yours for as long as you please do with however you please". As YOUR LAND, you choose to never allow any visitors. Is it okay for people to climb the garden fence and wander through YOUR GARDEN as long as they don't break anything and clean up after themselves? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:13:14 PM #64:	WingsOfGood posted... Think of it like timeshare except that everyone can share it at the same time. "think of this privately owned thing as a community owned resource and it's not stealing" your mental gymnastics are almost impressive --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756905] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote> Think of it like timeshare except that everyone can share it at the same time.</quote> "think of this privately owned thing as a community owned resource and it's not stealing" your mental gymnastics are almost impressive </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:13:49 PM #65:	Doe posted... Reminder from the OP: laws as written are not a substitute for moral justification. How the government defines copyright or IP is irrelevant to whether pirating a game is morally wrong. so are you now arguing against the morality of copyright? because if you are, then i'm just going to bow out of this argument and agree to disagree --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952756921] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>Reminder from the OP: laws as written are not a substitute for moral justification. How the government defines copyright or IP is irrelevant to whether pirating a game is morally wrong.</quote> so are you now arguing against the morality of copyright? because if you are, then i'm just going to bow out of this argument and agree to disagree </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wetterdew 04/12/21 4:14:51 PM #66:	Wetterdew posted... tc logic "if it's not something I can physically touch then I don't need to pay for the effort they put into making it" Studios spend money and time making video games so they can get return on those investments. If you aren't paying for their products and you just take what you want, the business isn't sustainable. TC you ignored these posts and I still want to hear your reply please --- Talking about video games? it's ok to just disagree with each other on the internet. No point getting hostile or snide about it <cite>Wetterdew posted [p:952756945] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Wetterdew posted... </cite> <quote>tc logic "if it's not something I can physically touch then I don't need to pay for the effort they put into making it"</quote> <quote>Studios spend money and time making video games so they can get return on those investments. If you aren't paying for their products and you just take what you want, the business isn't sustainable.</quote> TC you ignored these posts and I still want to hear your reply please </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:15:33 PM #67:	Doe posted... How is copying an arrangement of data, stealing? Show me the moral imperative that I should pay someone's asking price before doing so. Stealing is, quite literally, taking something that does not belong to you, without permission. There is no requirement that the "original" be removed. Even the dictionary definition you posted supports the idea of illegal software copies = stealing. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952756971] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>How is copying an arrangement of data, stealing? Show me the moral imperative that I should pay someone's asking price before doing so.</quote> Stealing is, quite literally, taking something that does not belong to you, without permission. There is no requirement that the "original" be removed. Even the dictionary definition you posted supports the idea of illegal software copies = stealing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:17:12 PM #68:	Giant_Aspirin posted... "think of this privately owned thing as a community owned resource and it's not stealing" your mental gymnastics are almost impressive The property is owned by someone licensing it out for the use of others. Those people let people who didn't pay for the use the ability to use it. Same with games. You can give your friend your game to play and he finish it and he didn't pay the dev. You also finished it. You can let your whole family beat a game and they not pay the devs. So many lost sales that you don't complain about.... very suspicious. <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757041] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>"think of this privately owned thing as a community owned resource and it's not stealing" your mental gymnastics are almost impressive</quote> The property is owned by someone licensing it out for the use of others. Those people let people who didn't pay for the use the ability to use it. Same with games. You can give your friend your game to play and he finish it and he didn't pay the dev. You also finished it. You can let your whole family beat a game and they not pay the devs. So many lost sales that you don't complain about.... very suspicious. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:17:25 PM #69:	WingsOfGood posted... If I don't own their IP how did I steal it? I either become the IP owner or I don't. How do you steal something and not own it after stealing it? If you steal my car, you don't become the owner of my car. It's physically in your possession but for all legal purposes you are not the owner and I am. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757052] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>If I don't own their IP how did I steal it? I either become the IP owner or I don't. How do you steal something and not own it after stealing it?</quote> If you steal my car, you don't become the owner of my car. It's physically in your possession but for all legal purposes you are not the owner and I am. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Doe 04/12/21 4:18:20 PM #71:	Pogo_Marimo posted... Books and software both require effort to make. Someone has to be smart enough or talented enough to know how to make them, then spend years making them. Because of the effort involved, we consider the output of this effort "Intellectual Property". Intellectual Property is a concept modern societies use in order to encourage the production of non-physical commodities like software, designs, inventions, novels, movies, ect. by allowing the owner of the Intellectual Property to profit from them at their sole discretion. >conflating morals with economic ethics --- https://imgur.com/u5kY6Yt https://imgur.com/V6HBhkR <cite>Doe posted [p:952757075] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Pogo_Marimo posted... </cite> <quote>Books and software both require effort to make. Someone has to be smart enough or talented enough to know how to make them, then spend years making them. Because of the effort involved, we consider the output of this effort "Intellectual Property". Intellectual Property is a concept modern societies use in order to encourage the production of non-physical commodities like software, designs, inventions, novels, movies, ect. by allowing the owner of the Intellectual Property to profit from them at their sole discretion.</quote>>conflating morals with economic ethics </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
COVxy 04/12/21 4:18:23 PM #72:	Pogo_Marimo posted... As YOUR LAND, you choose to never allow any visitors. Is it okay for people to climb the garden fence and wander through YOUR GARDEN as long as they don't break anything and clean up after themselves? If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. --- =E[(x-E[x])(y-E[y])] <cite>COVxy posted [p:952757080] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Pogo_Marimo posted... </cite> <quote>As YOUR LAND, you choose to never allow any visitors. Is it okay for people to climb the garden fence and wander through YOUR GARDEN as long as they don't break anything and clean up after themselves?</quote> If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:19:03 PM #73:	WingsOfGood posted... The property is owned by someone licensing it out for the use of others. Those people let people who didn't pay for the use the ability to use it. Same with games. You can give your friend your game to play and he finish it and he didn't pay the dev. You also finished it. You can let your whole family beat a game and they not pay the devs. So many lost sales that you don't complain about.... very suspicious. lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing copying my original and giving the copies away to friends and family = making a copy = stealing --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757096] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>The property is owned by someone licensing it out for the use of others. Those people let people who didn't pay for the use the ability to use it. Same with games. You can give your friend your game to play and he finish it and he didn't pay the dev. You also finished it. You can let your whole family beat a game and they not pay the devs. So many lost sales that you don't complain about.... very suspicious.</quote> lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing copying my original and giving the copies away to friends and family = making a copy = stealing </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:19:57 PM #74:	Giant_Aspirin posted... lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing they played the whole game without paying just cause you paid does not give them a right to the IP as according to you, by playing a game you have stolen the IP <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757123] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing</quote> they played the whole game without paying just cause you paid does not give them a right to the IP as according to you, by playing a game you have stolen the IP </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:20:11 PM #75:	COVxy posted... If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. Obviously it is not immoral to walk into my garden, do nothing of substance, and then leave the garden mostly in the same condition it was before you entered it, but that's Trespassing, not stealing. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757136] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>COVxy posted... </cite> <quote>If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion.</quote> Obviously it is not immoral to walk into my garden, do nothing of substance, and then leave the garden mostly in the same condition it was before you entered it, but that's Trespassing, not stealing. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:20:42 PM #76:	WingsOfGood posted... they played the whole game without paying just cause you paid does not give them a right to the IP as according to you, by playing a game you have stolen the IP Legally it does because of first sale doctrine. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757153] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>they played the whole game without paying just cause you paid does not give them a right to the IP as according to you, by playing a game you have stolen the IP</quote> Legally it does because of first sale doctrine. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:20:56 PM #77:	WingsOfGood posted... by playing a game you have stolen the IP wrong wrong wrong by copying you have stolen this is why libraries are not theft. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757163] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>by playing a game you have stolen the IP</quote> wrong wrong wrong by copying you have stolen this is why libraries are not theft. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Doe 04/12/21 4:21:09 PM #78:	Giant_Aspirin posted... lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem. But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen? --- https://imgur.com/u5kY6Yt https://imgur.com/V6HBhkR <cite>Doe posted [p:952757170] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>lending my physical copy of a game to friends and family = not making a copy = not stealing</quote>So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem. But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:21:50 PM #79:	Doe posted... So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem. yes Doe posted... But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen? correct. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757186] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem.</quote> yes Doe posted... </cite> <quote>But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen?</quote> correct. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:22:11 PM #80:	Giant_Aspirin posted... wrong wrong wrong by copying you have stolen this is why libraries are not theft. so if I happen to a computer where someone illegally downloaded a game and I play that whole game without paying I did not pirate correct? I did not steal? <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757196] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>wrong wrong wrong by copying you have stolen this is why libraries are not theft.</quote> so if I happen to a computer where someone illegally downloaded a game and I play that whole game without paying I did not pirate correct? I did not steal? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:23:19 PM #81:	Doe posted... So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem. But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen? Lending the book to everyone on earth one at a time is not stealing. Morality aside is a different story. There's certainly a morality argument to be made for letting a whole community benefit identically from a product meant for an individual. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757229] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>So if I buy a copy of a book from an author, then 1 by 1 I lend it to every other literate person on Earth, it's no problem. But if I go Monk mode and copy the book into a second book, I have now stolen?</quote>Lending the book to everyone on earth one at a time is not stealing. Morality aside is a different story. There's certainly a morality argument to be made for letting a whole community benefit identically from a product meant for an individual. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:23:28 PM #82:	WingsOfGood posted... so if I happen to a computer where someone illegally downloaded a game and I play that whole game without paying i think you accidentally a word --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757237] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>so if I happen to a computer where someone illegally downloaded a game and I play that whole game without paying</quote> i think you accidentally a word </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Pogo_Marimo 04/12/21 4:24:16 PM #83:	COVxy posted... If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. How do you define "loss"? The owner may view the loss of the garden's tranquility to ruin the entire point of their labor. Why do you assume your valuation of abstract concepts like "tranquility" are more important than the valuation of the property's owner? The owner of this garden may only take pleasure in the fruits of their labor if they are able to enjoy the garden in isolation at whatever time of day the fancy strikes them. Who are you to tell the creator, and sole owner, of his property that the 5 years they put into making it were for a goal that you don't think should be protected? --- 'Cause you know that I have no fear, ain't gonna walk into the river and disappear. I'm gonna be a powerful man. Red blood running down the broken sand. <cite>Pogo_Marimo posted [p:952757271] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>COVxy posted... </cite> <quote>If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion.</quote> How do you define "loss"? The owner may view the loss of the garden's tranquility to ruin the entire point of their labor. Why do you assume your valuation of abstract concepts like "tranquility" are more important than the valuation of the property's owner? The owner of this garden may only take pleasure in the fruits of their labor if they are able to enjoy the garden in isolation at whatever time of day the fancy strikes them. Who are you to tell the creator, and sole owner, of his property that the 5 years they put into making it were for a goal that you don't think should be protected? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:24:18 PM #84:	Giant_Aspirin posted... i think you accidentally a word Someone morally the word --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757273] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>i think you accidentally a word</quote>Someone morally the word </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:24:32 PM #85:	Giant_Aspirin posted... i think you accidentally a word I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal? <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757281] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>i think you accidentally a word</quote> I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:25:17 PM #86:	WingsOfGood posted... I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal? nope. because you didn't make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757302] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal?</quote> nope. because you didn't make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pojr 04/12/21 4:25:20 PM #87:	Godnorgosh posted... In the case of games that are no longer available for purchase as new, there is no asking price that benefits the publisher or developers, only the retail store or whatever other parasitic outlet you're buying them from. this --- pojr I summon it. You spell it. <cite>pojr posted [p:952757305] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Godnorgosh posted... </cite> <quote>In the case of games that are no longer available for purchase as new, there is no asking price that benefits the publisher or developers, only the retail store or whatever other parasitic outlet you're buying them from.</quote>this </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:25:54 PM #88:	WingsOfGood posted... I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal? No because you did not make the copy. What you did do, however, is very likely immoral, especially if you already knew it was an illegal copy. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757327] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>I go to the library. Someone downloaded the full game of Cyberpunk. I play it for 100s of hours. Did I steal?</quote> No because you did not make the copy. What you did do, however, is very likely immoral, especially if you already knew it was an illegal copy. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:25:56 PM #89:	Giant_Aspirin posted... nope. because you didn't make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work What if I am the one who downloaded it? <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757328] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Giant_Aspirin posted... </cite> <quote>nope. because you didn't make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work</quote> What if I am the one who downloaded it? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 04/12/21 4:26:23 PM #90:	This topic is so fucking tired. The intent of production is often income. If you do not contribute income, you are reducing projected value. I won't say this is always immoral, but I can give an example that most would agree is immoral: indie devs. Like, real indie devs, starting from scratch, no starting capital. Paying for dev costs out of pocket, inflicting crunch upon themselves, living on cup ramen, with the intent of making money off of the product they create. The product has projected value to them. They put real, non-duplicable resources, as in time and effort, into the product. If you can't understand that, just because the transaction isn't immediate and physical, you're fucking basic. Fucking TRS-80 basic. --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:952757340] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>This topic is so fucking tired. The intent of production is often income. If you do not contribute income, you are reducing projected value. I won't say this is always immoral, but I can give an example that most would agree is immoral: indie devs. Like, real indie devs, starting from scratch, no starting capital. Paying for dev costs out of pocket, inflicting crunch upon themselves, living on cup ramen, with the intent of making money off of the product they create. The product has projected value to them. They put real, non-duplicable resources, as in time and effort, into the product. If you can't understand that, just because the transaction isn't immediate and physical, you're fucking basic. Fucking TRS-80 basic. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Giant_Aspirin 04/12/21 4:27:07 PM #91:	WingsOfGood posted... What if I am the one who downloaded it? did you make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work? then yes. --- Playing: Luigi's Mansion 3; Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order; Hades; Dead Cells; You see it your way, I'll see it mine and I'll be fine <cite>Giant_Aspirin posted [p:952757359] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>What if I am the one who downloaded it?</quote> did you make an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work? then yes. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:27:38 PM #92:	WingsOfGood posted... What if I am the one who downloaded it? If you downloaded it, then you stole it, even if you did not play it. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757374] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>What if I am the one who downloaded it?</quote>If you downloaded it, then you stole it, even if you did not play it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Machete 04/12/21 4:27:55 PM #93:	COVxy posted... If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. I stopped reading that worthless, wall of text shitpost of his after the first 2+ word sentence because he insulted people and used a slur. He is way too emotionally invested in this conversation and could use a time out so he can calm down. --- I do not receive notifications, so using the @ feature will not do anything. I might see your post and respond though if I have already been in the topic. <cite>Machete posted [p:952757388] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>COVxy posted...</cite> <quote> If it there is no loss, then it is immoral to not share the resource, in my opinion. </quote> I stopped reading that worthless, wall of text shitpost of his after the first 2+ word sentence because he insulted people and used a slur. He is way too emotionally invested in this conversation and could use a time out so he can calm down.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:27:58 PM #94:	Guide posted... This topic is so fucking tired. The intent of production is often income. If you do not contribute income, you are reducing projected value. I won't say this is always immoral, but I can give an example that most would agree is immoral: indie devs. Like, real indie devs, starting from scratch, no starting capital. Paying for dev costs out of pocket, inflicting crunch upon themselves, living on cup ramen, with the intent of making money off of the product they create. The product has projected value to them. They put real, non-duplicable resources, as in time and effort, into the product. If you can't understand that, just because the transaction isn't immediate and physical, you're fucking basic. Fucking TRS-80 basic. If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal. <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757390] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Guide posted... </cite> <quote>This topic is so fucking tired. The intent of production is often income. If you do not contribute income, you are reducing projected value. I won't say this is always immoral, but I can give an example that most would agree is immoral: indie devs. Like, real indie devs, starting from scratch, no starting capital. Paying for dev costs out of pocket, inflicting crunch upon themselves, living on cup ramen, with the intent of making money off of the product they create. The product has projected value to them. They put real, non-duplicable resources, as in time and effort, into the product. If you can't understand that, just because the transaction isn't immediate and physical, you're fucking basic. Fucking TRS-80 basic.</quote> If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Pogo_Marimo 04/12/21 4:28:32 PM #95:	Doe posted... >conflating morals with economic ethics Economic ethics are derived by the same thing that all ethics are derived from. All branches of ethics are inseparable from one another, as inconsistency between branches invalidates any holistic, comprehensive view of morality. It's gross and, unfortunately, ironic that you would use a Down Syndrome slur meme to demonstrate your own lack of understanding of the field of Ethics and condescend someone who is explaining it to you. --- 'Cause you know that I have no fear, ain't gonna walk into the river and disappear. I'm gonna be a powerful man. Red blood running down the broken sand. <cite>Pogo_Marimo posted [p:952757413] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>>conflating morals with economic ethics </quote>Economic ethics are derived by the same thing that all ethics are derived from. All branches of ethics are inseparable from one another, as inconsistency between branches invalidates any holistic, comprehensive view of morality. It's gross and, unfortunately, ironic that you would use a Down Syndrome slur meme to demonstrate your own lack of understanding of the field of Ethics and condescend someone who is explaining it to you. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 04/12/21 4:28:45 PM #96:	WingsOfGood posted... If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal. First post in the topic says the topic is not about legality. --- evening main 2.4356848e+91 https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:952757423] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal.</quote> First post in the topic says the topic is not about legality. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:28:55 PM #97:	WingsOfGood posted... If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal. The library would pay you not that you'll ever produce anything a library would want to stock. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757428] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>If I were an author and my book only sold 30 copies but several thousand people read it via the library and sharing a copy with their friends, I would probably be upset. And yet that is totally legal.</quote> The library would pay you not that you'll ever produce anything a library would want to stock. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:29:06 PM #98:	Tyranthraxus posted... If you downloaded it, then you stole it, even if you did not play it. How does the act of downloading without playing what you just downloaded take away a sale exactly? <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757436] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite> <quote>If you downloaded it, then you stole it, even if you did not play it.</quote> How does the act of downloading without playing what you just downloaded take away a sale exactly? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WingsOfGood 04/12/21 4:30:20 PM #99:	Tyranthraxus posted... The library would pay you not that you'll ever produce anything a library would want to stock. the library paying you for 1 book they loan to thousands is not a justified return of value <cite>WingsOfGood posted [p:952757485] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite> <quote>The library would pay you not that you'll ever produce anything a library would want to stock.</quote> the library paying you for 1 book they loan to thousands is not a justified return of value </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
COVxy 04/12/21 4:30:39 PM #100:	Pogo_Marimo posted... How do you define "loss"? The owner may view the loss of the garden's tranquility to ruin the entire point of their labor. Why do you assume your valuation of abstract concepts like "tranquility" are more important than the valuation of the property's owner? The owner of this garden may only take pleasure in the fruits of their labor if they are able to enjoy the garden in isolation at whatever time of day the fancy strikes them. Who are you to tell the creator, and sole owner, of his property that the 5 years they put into making it were for a goal that you don't think should be protected? I would say that something is lost if some tangible value has decreased. So, if someone is occupying and using the space you would otherwise be using, that's a loss, but that's not in the original scenario. The original scenario puts value on ownership as a means of restricting access. That, in my opinion, is immoral. --- =E[(x-E[x])(y-E[y])] <cite>COVxy posted [p:952757494] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>Pogo_Marimo posted... </cite> <quote>How do you define "loss"? The owner may view the loss of the garden's tranquility to ruin the entire point of their labor. Why do you assume your valuation of abstract concepts like "tranquility" are more important than the valuation of the property's owner? The owner of this garden may only take pleasure in the fruits of their labor if they are able to enjoy the garden in isolation at whatever time of day the fancy strikes them. Who are you to tell the creator, and sole owner, of his property that the 5 years they put into making it were for a goal that you don't think should be protected?</quote> I would say that something is lost if some tangible value has decreased. So, if someone is occupying and using the space you would otherwise be using, that's a loss, but that's not in the original scenario. The original scenario puts value on ownership as a means of restricting access. That, in my opinion, is immoral. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/12/21 4:31:12 PM #101:	WingsOfGood posted... How does the act of downloading without playing what you just downloaded take away a sale exactly? It does not. It's still stealing. Note: stealing is not always immoral. Though it usually is in the case of video games. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:952757513] in I have nev... [t:79401779]...</cite> <quote>WingsOfGood posted... </cite> <quote>How does the act of downloading without playing what you just downloaded take away a sale exactly?</quote> It does not. It's still stealing. Note: stealing is not always immoral. Though it usually is in the case of video games. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > I have never seen a good argument for why "piracy" is immoral. (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > I have never seen a good argument for why "piracy" is immoral.