Board 8 > Playing MGS4 for the first time in more than 10 years - still great! (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

There wasn't room in the poll to include the fights against the beauties, but they barely count anyway and they're almost identical. They're included just fine in their corresponding FOXHOUND members. It's weird to include the first fight against the Frog Unit as a boss fight when there are so many of them, but they game kind of treats it as one and that one I did have room for in the poll.

As you might've seen I've replayed the first three for the first time in more than 10 years. The first two in the summer and the third very recently. I love them all. I've always ranked them MGS3 > MGS4 > MGS1 > MGS2, and I'm thinking that holds, though I'll have to finish this one first to cement it. I also recall that being a popular ranking back in the day, but now it seems like the more popular one is moving MGS4 to the bottom. I've been curious to see how I'd feel. I've heard a few short explanations, but I'm not sure I understand entirely why its popularity seem to fall.

Well, so far I love it. Just looking at the boxart made me excited. The legendary soldier returning one final time.

Simply playing on Solid Normal. Starting off in the middle east section, there's not much to this early part, but I do enjoy Snake standing right next to the iconic cardboard box seemingly wondering where to hide. Then it gets crushed and Snake was hiding using the vastly improved OctoCamo. It's weird to have a bittersweet moment about a damned cardboard box.

I remember thinking Drebin was a weird addition at first, but he grew on me during my first playthrough. I do appreciate having a vast selection of weapons and bullets never being an issue the whole game. It gives you the choice of blasting through everything if you're bad at sneaking, but still doesn't really help you much if you want to sneak through everything, other than of course being able to but The End's legendary sniper at some point.

The cardboard box gets buried further as we find the drum can.

The Meryl and Campbell subplot seems so weird the whole game. Johnny's stomach problems are a bit overdone, but it's pretty funny how they turned a minor obscure character into someone so relevant. Bet many missed that it was him!

I beat all the frogs non-lethally because I want to get the dolls. It's a good thing it doesn't matter if Meryl or the two other guys kills them!

It would appear that I could not even get through Act I before getting an alert status as I was found here in the final stretch, oh well.

The first scene with Liquid/Ocelot is very cool imo. It's clear Snake is less affected them most soldiers. Then the mystery of Johnny not being affected even a little bit! Perhaps not much of a mystery as the answer ends up being very simple, but it's Metal Gear, so of course you wonder beyond the simple solution and the scene is cool regardless!

I'm not sure I understand the symbolism in Sunny's songs, if there is any. It's sweet enough her progress of learning to cook eggs though. The camera briefly showing Olga's photo is nice, as you learn who Sunny is (or at least gets a heavy implication!).

Ah yes, Vamp gets to be a villain again because he can't die. Probably my least favorite relevant character in the series, but at least I think he's worse in MGS2.

Good old SVD can be found here early in Act 2!

Rosemary is also one of the lesser relevant characters and at this point the game sure isn't trying to change your mind about that! Her and Campbell really just reserves as plot points for Raiden and Meryl's stories in this game, they're almost completely irrelevant here, Otacon tells you basically everything you need to know.

It's funny just wandering with the rebels, them being seemingly confused about who you are, but still appreciating you helping them. Otacon tells me to not take much part, but I like to help them out as much as possible lol.

Raiden already being more useful than Campbell before actually showing up.

At this point of the game, Snake has at least three major reasons to not survive until the end lol.

I really love the fight against Laughing Octopus, in particular her ways of hiding from you are fun.

Oh that's right, Drebin has to tell y

I love the game, just wish there was more of it. Really wish Act 5 had more gameplay.

But it's great.
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unfair poll Liquid Ocelot is an all time boss fight in video games

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I remember liking this game a lot but when I saw half of J's review of the game last summer he pointed out a lot of inconsistencies with prior games that I was even harder-pressed to defend than what's present in the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Wonder what I would think if I revisited the game, but some of us may have been wrapped up in the hype similar to with The Force Awakens.

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Liquid Ocelot is an all-time boss fight

Nearly as iconic as LMS shoving his pet opinions into every topic he posts in

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The last fight is all I remember.

And the one beauty who rolls around in a ball.

Also mgsv > the last jedi

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pjbasis posted...

The last fight is all I remember.

And the one beauty who rolls around in a ball.

Also mgsv > the last jedi

That's Laughing Octopus.

I'd rank it as my favorite B&B fight.

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I think part of the problem is that MGS4 is a very fanservice-heavy game.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

I think part of the problem is that MGS4 is a very fanservice-heavy game.

this is actually it's greatest strength.

"old snake" was a bad idea though

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The fanservice is what makes it an amazing experience while you're playing it and makes you willing to overlook its flaws in the moment.

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Also probably the part about everything being explained by nanomachines.

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At what point did everyone realize who Big Mama was? I don't think I originally did before actually meeting her, but it's fun playing through knowing that it's EVA.

I enjoy following the rebels around here, but it's pretty weird how much of the act is that. It's enjoyable and increases in difficulty nicely as you go. I died just before reaching the rebel base for the first time because I got impatient and tried to make a run as soon as I heard the van coming. It got there in time and killed me before I could get away.

This is perhaps the game's biggest explanation, as all the other games are tied together through EVAs story. I wonder at what point everything was planned out. I don't think he had all four games planned when he made the first one, but I feel good about saying he probably had the end planned to out, at least the key points here, when making the second and third. It's so crazy that your lovable codec crew from the third game are the founders of basically everything wrong with the world now.

I died a second time fighting Raging Raven because I was hit so that I fell from the tower. This one was a pain to stamina kill.

The bike sequence is cool, but I'm not sure it matters what I do. Perhaps it does on higher difficulties, but it feels like whether I manage to hit anyone or not, I just move on anyways.

Poor EVA being impaled once more.

Liquid Ocelot has hihs most badass moment right after having uncountable guns pointing at him.

And so EVA dies. I know that it ends up turning out to foxdie that kills her, but I need to be reminded why she's affected. Is it from sharing genes with Liquid? But I thought the mutation didn't make it function like it used to, so it probably isn't. I suppose it could be Drebin's interference, I'm just not entirely sure why EVA is a target. Maybe I missed something.


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The part in Act 4 where you arrive at the Helipad in Shadow Moses gave me goosebumps

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I'm fairly sure Big Mama was given away in a trailer tbh
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Oh, yeah alright, I played them all right after MGS4 came out for the first time, so I missed that.

There is a clear favorite in the poll it seems and I agree. I'm curious about which one takes it from a pure gameplay point of experience though.

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Crying Wolf is good stuff
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I recall liking them all. Raging Raven probably ranks at the bottom though. I had enjoyed finding Octopus. The small tight setting is cool for a change. This would be the one rolling around btw.

The fight feels less out of place than the others. You've seen her there a few times in the chapter being super creepy, she also comes as the first one after showing them all. The others to some degree just appear randomly in the given location because they had to and it's a little bit like "oh right, we were fighting those". They're good fights though.

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Raging Raven is easily the worst fight in the game. The others are at least enjoyable.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

As you might've seen I've replayed the first three for the first time in more than 10 years. The first two in the summer and the third very recently. I love them all. I've always ranked them MGS3 > MGS4 > MGS1 > MGS2, and I'm thinking that holds, though I'll have to finish this one first to cement it. I also recall that being a popular ranking back in the day, but now it seems like the more popular one is moving MGS4 to the bottom. I've been curious to see how I'd feel. I've heard a few short explanations, but I'm not sure I understand entirely why its popularity seem to fall.

MGS4 has just bad storytelling compared to the other 3. Its attempts to wrap things up are ok at times, but also very...well "nanomachines". The beauty and beast unit was kinda just there, all 4 of their stories were kinda the same. MGS4 is clearly the worst one even if it is playable and fun enough. 2 > 1 > 3 > 4.

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LeonhartFour posted...

Raging Raven is easily the worst fight in the game. The others are at least enjoyable.

Could never get behind this opinion, I always liked fighting Raven. Much more enjoyable than Screaming Mantis at least, the actual worst boss in the game!

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I love the MGS1 part as Snake dreams about his first time at Shadow Moses. In general, I love that the kept all graphics original even in flashbacks.

This chapter is very much dirven by nostalgia. The flashbacks Snake hears, the location and everything. Otherwise, this area would be a bit bland probably. It has a lot less life with gekkos instead of actual people.

The ghosts are a fun easter egg, though there are so many that it's a bit hard to actually find the ones of the characters that died back then. Doesn't help that they're not all that east to recognize to begin with.

The gool ol' cardboard box is found here and it has actual use against the gekkos! That's kinda sweet.

The fight against Crying Wolf is very good, but she's basically just here because she had to be most of all.

F*** you Vamp, may you have a terrible afterlife. I do like that we got an explanation for his immortality this game, even if it's "well, nanomachines", I think it works here.

Naomi has done her best Ocelot impression this whole game by never really being clear about who she's actually with, but so she dies.

I actually really like the REX vs. RAY fight, that was rather fun.

Poor Raiden just can't catch a break, but what does it matter when you're basically no longer human anyway.

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got any white blood

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REX vs. RAY is so great
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MGS4 is good. I just wish there was more to it. More gameplay, more Easter eggs, more Codec conversations...just really more to the game.

Oh and the cutscenes really are too long.

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I finished the game, but I'll leave the thoughts for tomorrow because Super Bowl.

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SSBM_Guy posted...

MGS4 is good. I just wish there was more to it. More gameplay, more Easter eggs, more Codec conversations...just really more to the game.

Oh and the cutscenes really are too long.

So what you're saying is not more cutscenes

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I agree that there is not much gameplay in this final act, but what we have is very good! It's certainly a good last big area, it's pretty hard getting through without being alerted and I'm not sure you can get out of alert status here. I didn't wait around that long, but it didn't go down at all.

Good job making it here, Meryl, so that the Screaming Mantis fight can mirror the original. I really like this one actually, mostly that you can pick up her dolls and use them against her. Using the syringe on yourself to break free is cool too. I think I prefer Laughing Octopus in the end, but this one probably takes second.

Then of course the rela Phycho Mantis shows up and gives the best flashbacks in the game only to be stopped by The Sorrow and Hideo Kojima, what a damn moment.

Johnny and Meryl's scene isn't that great imo, because we have to accept that the Frog soliders here became prime stormtroopers just waiting for them to have their moments in plain sight at shooting distance.

Raiden trying to pull his best Roronoa Zoro. Try learning Santoryu when you have your arms back later, pal. Good thing the Frog soldiers let's me leave here.

Very cinematic stretch as I crawl through the microwaves. Otacon saves the world while I was mostly here to open doors for his Mk. III and Naomi ends up turning face again after death.

The final fight is easily the best moment this whole game has to offer in every single fashion. Revolver Ocelot being the true mastermind behind the whole series, slowly showing himself to you again as you go through all the game's style of fighting. Of course, Ocelot is most difficult in the MGS3 part of the fight. Finally, he dies to foxdie surely having accomplished exactly what he wanted, what a guy.

Then it's time for the postcredits, where some of my lesser favorite characters are reedemed some. Loyalty badge for Campbell that's for sure, though I do hope he tells Meryl eventually. What a place to be married. Drebin likes attention too much, but it's pretty funny when his monkey steals the bouquet from Mei Ling. This whole scene is a quite bittersweet and definitely gets to me.

The scene with Raiden, Rose and John got through to me completely this time. I'm partially surprised at how much this part broke me down. Specifically, John standing there nervous about to me his father with his little sword indicating how much he looks up to his father and wants to impress him. Even writing this now gets to me, though not in the same extend. Maybe I'm just more target audience of this part now, being much older and looking more forward to having a family myself (though hopefully a lot less chaotic one). I wasn't remotely close to holding back tears in this part only.

Snake's "suicide" is a strong scene in itself, but it's much stronger when seeing Otacon and Sunny talking about Snake in the next scene before the "credits" rolling.

What an incredible way of teasing the debriefing. Making it seem like the game is over as credits are watched when one voice actor is presented a bit after the others. The voice of the legendary Big Boss who... was never there!? Love that part.

Then he arrives in all his glory knowing fully well he will not survive this, explains the last things to Snake, finally kills Zero and decides die at The Boss' grave but not before giving her his famous salute one last time. What a hero.

And any better way for this to end than Snake spending his final days in peace with his true better half, Otacon (and Sunny I suppose!). I really like this ending to his story. You're basically wondering the whole game in what way Snake is gonna go out and in the end he actually doesn't after all. I mean, of course he dies peacefully not long after the story ends, but still.

That's the game! Though I probably want to talk a bit more about some parts...

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I know Big Boss being in that scene is dumb but I love it anyway. CQC hug and that "ever since I killed the boss, I was already dead" line are great but viewing it through the lens of Kojima's own dad (which I didn't know about when I first played it) makes it even more touching.
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So how much are we actually supposed to understand that Ocelot had planned ahead and was in control? I seem to recall learning that Ocelot purposely let Liquid take over every time Snake appeared, but now I'm not sure where I learned that from. Did Snake actually beat Liquid out of Ocelot or could Ocelot have regained control at any point if he wanted to, but simply chose Liquid was leading him where he needed to be to succesfully take down the patriots? This is all a lot less clear in this game when it doesn't end with a monologue of him explaining how he was the mastermind.

Also, was this new foxdie specifically programmed to target EVA, Ocelot and Big Boss, or is it because foxdie was always made to target Liquid and all three kinda has his genes in them some way or another.

Also, I'm not entirely certain why Naomi was being as mysterious as she was.

I don't really mind the lack of gameplay in some chapters, I don't think there's less than the other games unless we're looking at a specific setting, only the amount of cutscenes definitely increased a good bit. This was still a blast to play through and remains one of my favorite games ever. I think there are good cases to be made for basically every ranking of these four masterpieces, what I'm most certain of is that MGS3 comes on top and that the ending of that game is best moment in the series, but Snake vs. Liquid Ocelot is quite possibly the second best moment.


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Why does it seem like most analyses of this game on YT are negative, albeit not excessively so?

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Why does it seem like most analyses of this game on YT are negative, albeit not excessively so?

probably because 3, 1, and 2 are all significantly more satisfying gameplay experiences. like 4 is excellent and provides a perfect story conclusion, but the comparative lack of gameplay is noticeable

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The story gets a lot of criticism too though.

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Beat MGS4 for the first time either last year or the year before. Good game but the gameplay/cutscene pacing, the shifting settings, and the lack of codec took me out of it a bit and it's my least favorite of the first four.

I don't see this talked about much (not that I've looked that hard) but aren't The Philosophers kind of a stupid idea? An international group of super-elites from the United States, the Soviet Union, and the Republic of China (who remain in place after the communists take over apparently?) that controlled vast wealth and worked together behind the scenes to manipulate the world and advance their interests but that turned against each other after World War II? I can't parse this as making sense with known history and events given that MGS more or less follows those (but with a few new big events here and there and a lot of additional stuff going on under the surface) through at least the fall of the Soviet Union or so. Kojima's stuff on politics and history is sometimes insightful or at least interesting or fun but here it reads like he took a ridiculous antisemetic conspiracy theory from around the and replaced the parts about "the Jews" with "the Philosophers."

I haven't played anything besides the original two games, Twin Snakes, and MGS1-4, mind, but yeah. Am I missing something?

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I think it's a basic conceit you have to be willing to accept in order to enjoy the series' plot.

Plus, the way that MGS2 drives it home at the end basically forgives how silly the concept may otherwise be.

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AxemRedRanger posted...

Kojima's stuff on politics and history is sometimes insightful or at least interesting or fun but here it reads like he took a ridiculous antisemetic conspiracy theory from around the and replaced the parts about "the Jews" with "the Philosophers."

Are you talking about conspiracies at the time of release of MGS3? Because I'm pretty sure that shit started gaining traction moreso later on. At least the term "deep state" wasn't a thing yet.
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are you arguing that Jewish conspiracy theories didn't start until after MGS3?

like on one hand I'm slightly happy when I hear someone have absolutely no idea about the long long history of anti-semitism, but on another, it always gives me a bad feeling too

also I disagree entirely that "the Philosophers" is the same as prevailing antisemitic conspiracy theories. it's just a conglomeration of the superpowers

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colliding posted...

are you arguing that Jewish conspiracy theories didn't start until after MGS3?

Hell no.

I'm just not sure what he was specifically referring to.

But no I'll admit to probably not being superbly knowledgeable about most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
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ctesjbuvf posted...

So how much are we actually supposed to understand that Ocelot had planned ahead and was in control? I seem to recall learning that Ocelot purposely let Liquid take over every time Snake appeared, but now I'm not sure where I learned that from. Did Snake actually beat Liquid out of Ocelot or could Ocelot have regained control at any point if he wanted to, but simply chose Liquid was leading him where he needed to be to succesfully take down the patriots? This is all a lot less clear in this game when it doesn't end with a monologue of him explaining how he was the mastermind.

Also, was this new foxdie specifically programmed to target EVA, Ocelot and Big Boss, or is it because foxdie was always made to target Liquid and all three kinda has his genes in them some way or another.

Also, I'm not entirely certain why Naomi was being as mysterious as she was.

So does anyone actually know this?

I suppose the last one might just be for the player's sake.

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Also before moving out to MGSV, which I have not played before, I checked out Peace Walker as it's included in the HD collection I played 2 and 2 on this time. Apparently some of the characters here are relevant in V too.

My first impression is alright but not fantastic. It's certainly not I game I'll play through in the same way as the first four. I know it's a PSP game originally and it's pretty clear it was made for that. The mission system is a bit of a drag if you just want to play through, but it would be a good game to have handheld and play one or two missions of every now and then. If you missed gameplay in the fourth, then this is great, because it's just more of that really. I'm not certain I'll bother going through all Extra Ops, since there are apparently about four times as many as there are Main Ops, but I plan on finishing the Main Ops.

As for the story, I'm not that invested, really just side stuff Big Boss was doing these years and no way The Boss is alive lol. It's fun to see Miller actually being Miller and not Liquid in disguise for the first time since Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake (unless he was in Portable Ops, which I do not own and have no intention of getting).

Best part of the game some missions in (and I never thought I'd ever say this about anything) was the tutorial. That was peak Metal Gear Solid fourth wall breaking.

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personally peace walker was one of my favorites, but I went nuts with collecting all the crazy upgrades and doing the 4 multiplayer

That true final boss still so good

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but also MGSV is basically Peace Walker on steroids so get used to this style of Metal Gear

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Well, I'm not driven forward because of the story this time, it's the gameplay that's the main attraction here and I just blasted through the other games. It's good for what it is!

You mean the style of picking mission after mission?

Does MGSV have cutscenes that is not a comic book?

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it does have cutscenes

just not a lot of them

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I'm happy with the way the poll has turned out, although Vamp has no business getting a vote.

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Getting a vote to be above Raging Raven is something they all deserve.
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So much for that huh.

Mantis doesn't deserve to be last.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

So how much are we actually supposed to understand that Ocelot had planned ahead and was in control? I seem to recall learning that Ocelot purposely let Liquid take over every time Snake appeared, but now I'm not sure where I learned that from. Did Snake actually beat Liquid out of Ocelot or could Ocelot have regained control at any point if he wanted to, but simply chose Liquid was leading him where he needed to be to succesfully take down the patriots? This is all a lot less clear in this game when it doesn't end with a monologue of him explaining how he was the mastermind.

I don't think Ocelot let Liquid purposefully take over in MGS2. In that game, it seemed to be legit "getting possessed against his will" stuff, and his relationship with The Sorrow might be an explanation for it. I think he just took the idea, realized he could use it to his advantage, and ran with it after the events of MGS2. At that point, he willingly gives himself over to the Liquid "persona," and I always took the last boss sequence as Snake gradually beating Liquid out of him since the boss meter changes from "Liquid" to "Liquid Ocelot" to "Ocelot." I don't know if this has ever really been confirmed though.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Also, was this new foxdie specifically programmed to target EVA, Ocelot and Big Boss, or is it because foxdie was always made to target Liquid and all three kinda has his genes in them some way or another.

It was designed to kill them all. Even the clones don't have exactly the same gene sequencing (except for Solidus), which the game takes time to point out.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Also, I'm not entirely certain why Naomi was being as mysterious as she was.

I imagine Snake and Otacon wouldn't be on board with her pretending to be on Ocelot's side, even had she told them what she was planning. And I guess she wanted her betrayal to be more "believable" to Ocelot, who knows.

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LeonhartFour posted...

I don't think Ocelot let Liquid purposefully take over in MGS2. In that game, it seemed to be legit "getting possessed against his will" stuff, and his relationship with The Sorrow might be an explanation for it. I think he just took the idea, realized he could use it to his advantage, and ran with it after the events of MGS2. At that point, he willingly gives himself over to the Liquid "persona," and I always took the last boss sequence as Snake gradually beating Liquid out of him since the boss meter changes from "Liquid" to "Liquid Ocelot" to "Ocelot." I don't know if this has ever really been confirmed though.

How much of that was Ocelot's intention then. During the boss's fight, Ocelot does not appear to be the slightest bit surprised at what's happening as he comes free. The boss meter doesn't indicate how it happens, only that it happens (and it could also just be referring to the antagonist of each game).

LeonhartFour posted...

It was designed to kill them all. Even the clones don't have exactly the same gene sequencing (except for Solidus), which the game takes time to point out.

I think I'm just slightly confused about the exact purpose of that specifically.

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The Patriots are trying to eliminate threats in the only way they know is guaranteed to work.

And at the end, I don't think Ocelot is too concerned about keeping up the Liquid persona because he's already accomplished his goals. And yeah, it's a reference to each game, obviously, but I think it's also meant to be a sign that Liquid is going away and Ocelot is coming back.

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Isn't the whole point of the prosthetic arm reveal in MGS4 (coupled with Ocelot's last words) supposed to be that Ocelot was just pretending to be Liquid throughout the whole game so his master plan against the Patriots went off without a hitch? He was definitely legit possessed in MGS2 but it seems like after that he decided to use it to his advantage even after he'd secretly already dealt with it.

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