Current Events > 3 things I never understood about the new wave of pronoun identity

(+) Yeah! (+)

1, since when was it so wrong to be an effeminate man or a masculine woman? There have always been men that lean in their feminine side and women that lean in their masculine side. I don't think I've ever legit thought "that male nurse should be a woman" or "that woman who isn't girly is probably a dude". OR "hmm that guy is multi faceted, he must not be a gender".

2, to say you are not the "gender norm" means that you know exactly what the gender norm in ALL of society is. And that has so much personal bias to it. The truth is that society and life is way too diverse and chaotic to simplify it. One girl might think that because she plays lacrosse and is outspoken, she might think she's more like a "man" and therefore deconstruct her identity to suit. Another girl in that exact same position might think she's just a girl who's outspoken and plays lacrosse. I don't think those 2 traits are gender specific at all personally. A guy might like ballet. Is ballet dancing something that's largely female occupied? Yes. Do I think a man is a female for being in that space? No. Some men in Spain might be seen as effeminate in Russia. Does that make them Spanish men but non-binary Russian folk?

3, having issue with the dichotomy of your gender vs your perception of gender norm in society is something everyone deals with at some point in their life. As men we all sometimes wonder if we're being men enough. Women deal with it too. It starts off as an insecurity (usually during teen years) and eventually you either grow out of it and realize that whatever the fuck you do is okay or you keep using your own perception of gender to dictate what kind of adult you should try to be. Changing up your pronoun doesn't alleviate you of this pressure, it just changes the conditions in which you measure yourself

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Here we go
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This is a really poor, long winded argument for what amounts to simply saying I dont believe trans people are valid

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LivingLegend posted...

False... Its referring to what the accepted gender norms of society are. For example, boys dont cry.

Thank you for proving my point. Boys don't cry. Who said this? I didn't. I think crying is a human emotion and everyone is capable of doing it and allowed to do it. I don't think boys are incapable of crying, nor do I think boys don't ever cry. Do you?

Is there a book on what gender norms are, or is this something you got into your head, and now as an adult (presumably, you might be 13 idk), you feel like society has taught you wrong and it's impossible to change?

Once you are non-binary, are you going to cry more often?

LivingLegend posted...

idk what youre even trying to say

Everyone deals with wondering if they are manly or womanly enough at some point in their lives, and dealing with that is the human condition.

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Master Kazuya posted...

Who said this?

Society

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It's pretty simple. You've never thought you were born the wrong sex so you have no idea why someone would think or feel that way. Neither would I.

It'd be like me deciding to explain to Neil Armstrong what it's really like on the moon.

Pus_N_Pecans posted...

This is a really poor, long winded argument for what amounts to simply saying I dont believe trans people are valid

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I agree with what the tc seems to be getting at. That has nothing to do with trans peoples validity. Of course trans people are valid. At the same time, I always felt like growing up we were told to be ourselves and that gender norms were restrictive and outdated. Telling people they have to stick to a gender norm or they aren't a boy or aren't a girl is not progress, and it's a harmful message for kids to be getting. It is healthy and normal for boys to cry, and that should be the message, not that if you cry you must be non binary or a girl.

Pus_N_Pecans posted...

This is a really poor, long winded argument for what amounts to simply saying I dont believe trans people are valid

Trans people commit a lot more. They go through identity change. They go through hormones, through surgery, through ostracization, through new & emerging sexuality. I respect that.

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fuming posted...

It is healthy and normal for boys to cry, and that should be the message, not that if you cry you must be non binary or a girl.

holy shit someone gets it

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Guys trans people commit tho, so they have TC's respect

Gimme a break.

Tldr

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You can just say whatever when you have to and ignore anyone after that.

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Master Kazuya posted...

1, since when was it so wrong to be an effeminate man or a masculine woman? There have always been men that lean in their feminine side and women that lean in their masculine side. I don't think I've ever legit thought "that male nurse should be a woman" or "that woman who isn't girly is probably a dude". OR "hmm that guy is multi faceted, he must not be a gender".

First of all, nobody is saying that you cant be a masculine woman without being trans or anything like that. Secondly, youre conflating the ideas of gender identity with numerous other things. But literally not how that works. The idea of pronoun identity has nothing to do with the fact that people can be more masculine or more feminine, but instead about the gender itself. There are plenty of incredibly effeminate gay men who still identify as men. To them, being gay / effeminate has nothing to do with their gender, and instead more so about their sexual preferences and / or sense of style (in the case of things like fashion, makeup, etc etc). You can be effeminate and not gay, and gay and but not effeminate. The same can be said for women who play sports but arent lesbian, or buy mens clothes because it fits better or they like the look more.

Gender identity and things like sexual preferences, grooming, style, etc are separate concepts. Theyre so unrelated that there are plenty of trans people who get discriminated against by members of the LGBT community. Yes, there are transphobic gays. Conflating gender identity with sexual orientation isnt exactly accurate (although it does often get mixed together for the sake of Pride related stuff, hence why the community includes T in LGBT).


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2SweetforTurtle posted...

Gender identity and things like sexual preferences, grooming, style, etc are separate concepts.

If they are separate concepts, where is the separation? What is gender identity, beyond trans people, beyond feeling a constant imbalance in your brain chemistry, beyond feeling sexually misplaced? I'm not talking about trans people. There is a whole wave of people adopting this without necessarily incorporating the entire trans mental piece of it. My understanding is that people who identify as non-binary or switch genders do so because they feel as if they don't fit in with their preconceived notions of gender in society. Hell, I live in MA and some people would swear you're not a true Bostonian if you don't care about sports. But I live here. Do I go by their notions of culture or my own? What about being a gamer? Some people classify it as people who play games who tangent into nerdy and quirky behaviors, others classify it as basement dwelling smelly nerds. Who do we look to for the proper "societal" definition? I get that these are shallower examples than gender but the concepts still apply.

With trans people, even though I personally don't feel as though I'm the wrong gender, I can get how someone would feel misaligned in some way their life and realize that's the thing that was missing. The reason I get that is that it's based on their personal feelings within themselves. It's something they need to feel complete based on their own reflection and introspection. When it comes to an identity based on societal notion though, there's just...so much that goes into a society and so many people have their own individual ideas of what society is. And that's just how things are, we all have our own perception of society and how we fit into it or don't, what we're lacking or not. But for someone to assume their version of society is my version and then call themselves something else based on aspects of society that are up to interpretation anyway, yeah idk. I don't get it.

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