Board 8 > People selling PICTURES of PS5s for hundreds of dollars.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Imo the problems are really that there isn't enough supply, and online retailers don't let out the systems in a fair way

So then why wouldn't you have a problem with the fact that scalpers take that already low supply and make it even worse? Scalpers buy up all the systems they can, then only sell a few at a time to keep supply low so they can get a higher price.

Production time is a legitimate reason for why supply is low. Scalpers just artificially make it even lower. And the fact that scalpers are competing with legitimate consumers means we don't actually even know how bad or not the supply issue actually is. For all we know, they could actually be meeting demand fairly well, but when you have scalpers buying hundreds and thousands of the things, how can you really tell? They could be creating a scarcity that might not truly exist.

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HashtagSEP posted...

For all we know, they could actually be meeting demand fairly well, but when you have scalpers buying hundreds and thousands of the things, how can you really tell? They could be creating a scarcity that might not truly exist.
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Uhh no offense but does anyone have any evidence of this. I don't see why a scalper would sit on a product to sell later for a lower price for anything other than logicistcal reasons.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

Uhh no offense but does anyone have any evidence of this. I don't see why a scalper would sit on a product to sell later for a lower price for anything other than logicistcal reasons.

https://www.businessinsider.com/playstation-5-launch-day-us-europe-flooded-by-reseller-bots-2020-11

One group has claimed to have obtained 3500 of them

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hombad46 posted...

https://www.businessinsider.com/playstation-5-launch-day-us-europe-flooded-by-reseller-bots-2020-11

One group has claimed to have obtained 3500 of them

Yes...? But are they sitting on them? It sounds like they are just selling them as soon as they can.

In order to actually affect price you would have to buy a lot more than 3500 anyways

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I mean that's literally how things like eBay work. You can't flood the market or else your price won't stick. It's why you'll see one sell and then the seller immediately puts up another after.

If people see 3500 PS5s on eBay at $1000 they're going to assume that's not a good price because there's so many available, which is going to turn enough people away to be a potential issue later.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

Uhh no offense but does anyone have any evidence of this. I don't see why a scalper would sit on a product to sell later for a lower price for anything other than logicistcal reasons.

To reply to this post specifically, they're not sitting on it to sell at a lower price later, they're sitting on them to keep them "scarce" so more people are willing to pay the high price. If you have 2000, you don't put them all up at once. You put up 20, then another 20 after those sell, then another, and so on. You string it out. By doing so, you create an artificial scarcity which allows you to inflate the price higher.

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HashtagSEP posted...

If people see 3500 PS5s on eBay at $1000

In a quick search I see 10,500 PS5s on ebay. Yes i'm sure they didn't list all 3500 at once, but I think its likely a logistical thing more than anything. (Also that site claims to be a group of 1000s of people which means each person is only selling a couple).

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HashtagSEP posted...

To reply to this post specifically, they're not sitting on it to sell at a lower price later, they're sitting on them to keep them "scarce" so more people are willing to pay the high price. If you have 2000, you don't put them all up at once. You put up 20, then another 20 after those sell, then another, and so on. You string it out. By doing so, you create an artificial scarcity which allows you to inflate the price higher.

This only works if you have enough of the supply to actually create an artifical storage. If your withholding 1980 out of 5 million consoles you aren't creating an artifical storage.

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I'm very confused how you think the big problem is the supply from actual production being too low, but somehow don't think the fact that people are buying up all of those in droves to force people to pay a higher price to them isn't an issue.

Let's say there's 300 people that want a PS5, and a store gets 275. Yes, 25 people are going to go without one.

But then you introduce... Let's say 27 scalpers to the mix. And they buy 270 of those.

Now, instead of 25 people going without one, now 295 people went without getting one. Suddenly, the thing looks a lot more scarce than it is. And now, because of that, the scalpers get to sell them for twice the price or more, because they're creating a bigger scarcity than should exist.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

This only works if you have enough of the supply to actually create an artifical storage. If your withholding 1980 out of 5 million consoles you aren't creating an artifical storage.

It doesn't work that way because 5 million aren't for sale all at once. They get produced and sold in batches, and regular consumers have to try to compete with scalpers for them. The more you miss out, the more it's going to seem impossible to get one, and the more a scalper can charge.

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Lol defending scalpers.

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HashtagSEP posted...

It doesn't work that way because 5 million aren't for sale all at once. They get produced and sold in batches, and regular consumers have to try to compete with scalpers for them. The more you miss out, the more it's going to seem impossible to get one, and the more a scalper can charge.

Say 10 million people want a ps5
say sony produces 11 million.

Now theoretically if scalpers get 6 million of those that means 5 million people want a ps5 the scalpers have. Scalpers could easily create artifical demand by selling them in batches of 100k at a time. The problem is you are expecting what is probably hundreds of thousands of scalpers to coordinate. What more realistically happens is all the small scalpers (a couple consoles at most) just dump everything as soon as they can while prices are high. Especially since out of those 5 million people that didn't get a console I would wager 2 million at least aren't willing to be scalped so they actual demand is 3 million people for 6 million consoles. Whoever doesn't sell quickly risks getting stock they cant profit on.

HashtagSEP posted...

Let's say there's 300 people that want a PS5, and a store gets 275. Yes, 25 people are going to go without one.

But then you introduce... Let's say 27 scalpers to the mix. And they buy 270 of those.

This would be a problem but i have seen no evidence that scalpers are getting that large a percentage of consoles. And if they are it goes back to the other issue I mentioned

Colegreen_c12 posted...

and online retailers don't let out the systems in a fair way

The fact that one person can get a disproportionate amount of systems is a problem. Not the scalping in general. Realistically every online release should just be some form of lottery system with some kind of safeguard to allow each person to only get one. At that point if someone enters every lottery and wins say 5 consoles its not that big a deal

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Waluigi1 posted...

Lol defending scalpers.

No offense but i'm not really defending scalpers. I'm more of trying to point out how you guys are just blaming scalpers for consoles being hard to get when the root problem is that online retailers release stuff poorly and sony didn't make enough consoles (which isn't unique to sony, every console is like this. As a secret producers/retailers actually like there being artifical storages that they themselves create, it makes their product seem more valuable.)

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I think the only gaming company that actively doesn't make enough product is Nintendo

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

The fact that one person can get a disproportionate amount of systems is a problem. Not the scalping in general. Realistically every online release should just be some form of lottery system with some kind of safeguard to allow each person to only get one. At that point if someone enters every lottery and wins say 5 consoles its not that big a deal

There are measures in place to stop it, but scalpers are creating scripts and shit to get around it.

Why are you bending over backwards so far to the point of suggesting receiving an item become even MORE difficult just to avoid saying "Scalpers are dicks?"

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

As a secret producers/retailers actually like there being artifical storages that they themselves create, it makes their product seem more valuable.)

Also this is just flat out wrong in cases like this where it hurts their bottom dollar. They're already selling the system at a loss, which they make up for in software sales. You can't get those software sales if people can't get the consoles.

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HashtagSEP posted...

There are measures in place to stop it, but scalpers are creating scripts and shit to get around it.

Why are you bending over backwards so far to the point of suggesting receiving an item become even MORE difficult just to avoid saying "Scalpers are dicks?"

Uh if scalpers are such a big problem i am suggesting making recieving an item become easier not harder for the non-scapler.

If you just want to complain and use scalpers as a scapegoat instead of the core problems go ahead.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Also this is just flat out wrong in cases like this where it hurts their bottom dollar. They're already selling the system at a loss, which they make up for in software sales. You can't get those software sales if people can't get the consoles.

consoles are only sold at a loss initially, as time goes on they are able to do it more efficiently and can start breaking even or even profiting on consoles.

It's actually in their best interest to only sell consoles to people that can afford to buy a lot of software (aka people who can afford to buy from a scalper) early on and then sell to the more thrify people a year down the line when their costs are down

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Your "core problem" is flawed since it assumes:

A. Sony is purposely limiting supply to... Hurt their own profits?
B. Stores are purposely making it hard for people to buy the item for "reasons" when they've been outright making it known which days/times/etc. things would be available.
C. That we know such a large scarcity would exist even without scalpers when we don't have any proof that's actually true.

What we DO know:

A. Scalpers are buying the items in bulk and effectively cheating to do so.
B. This is having a direct impact on normal consumers and their ability to get the item at a reasonable price.

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At the end of the day, scalpers probably aren't killing it in the areas of empathy and selflessness.

Also at the end of the day, we're talking about people being denied luxury toys.

So it's all pretty "whatever"

Colegreen_c12 posted...

It's actually in their best interest to only sell consoles to people that can afford to buy a lot of software (aka people who can afford to buy from a scalper) early on and then sell to the more thrify people a year down the line when their costs are down

This is making a lot of assumptions, such as assuming a lot of these scalper sales aren't desperate parents that are blowing their holiday budget on the console and thus buying less software because of it.

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turbopuns3 posted...

At the end of the day, scalpers probably aren't killing it in the areas of empathy and selflessness.

Also at the end of the day, we're talking about people being denied luxury toys.

So it's all pretty "whatever"

Well, it's not so much "whatever" because scalping is a big problem in general. We've already seen it with shit like toilet paper and hand sanitizer. Sure, this particular item isn't important, but it's still part of a larger problem, and so the act of defending scalpers in any case is pretty gross.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Your "core problem" is flawed since it assumes:

A. Sony is purposely limiting supply to... Hurt their own profits?
B. Stores are purposely making it hard for people to buy the item for "reasons" when they've been outright making it known which days/times/etc. things would be available.
C. That we know such a large scarcity would exist even without scalpers when we don't have any proof that's actually true.

What we DO know:

A. Scalpers are buying the items in bulk and effectively cheating to do so.
B. This is having a direct impact on normal consumers and their ability to get the item at a reasonable price.

A. To be honest sony probably is making as much as they can in this time frame. But you also don't see them pusing back the release date a few months so more people can get consoles at launch.
B. They aren't purposely making it hard, but they also aren't making it fair. I could easily think of at least 2 ways that would make it a lot more "fair" in the sense that scalpers wouldn't get a disprotiate ways.
C. Uh look at any console launch ever. 110 ps4s were sold over 6 years with 10 million in the first year (which was also due to supply problems) and you think 5-7 million ps5s are enough?

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I didn't say it was enough. I said the scarcity wouldn't be as bad because you'd have a higher percentage of actual consumers getting the item in each drop.

Also you're making a lot of assumptions on what's "fair." Is it fair if they use a lottery system and scalpers cheat to get more entries?

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HashtagSEP posted...

said the scarcity wouldn't be as bad because you'd have a higher percentage of actual consumers getting the item in each drop

I mean at the end of the day the same number of consumers are getting the product. It's just that people willing to overspend get a priority. Which was back to my original question. Would people have been more ok with this if sony itself allowed you to have priority access for $200 more? Of if some retailer, say a gamestop, offers bundles of stuff people don't really want with a ps5 for a higher price for more profit.

Like yes a scalper cheating the system by getting a bunch is obviously not great. If you told me a few years ago a college kid waited in line overnight to buy a console to make a couple hundred bucks reselling it to pay for food or rent i would have had no problems with it.

HashtagSEP posted...

Also you're making a lot of assumptions on what's "fair." Is it fair if they use a lottery system and scalpers cheat to get more entries?

Theres plenty of ways to prevent this kind of thing tbh. Will it be perfect? Probably not. But a scalper having 10 entries in a raffle out of 10,000 for 1,000 where he's expected to get 1 is a lot less impactful than snagging 5-10 ps5s with scripts before normal consumers can

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People are clearly willing to pay those silly prices for a PS5. This wouldn't happen if there weren't people willing to pay that much money for it.

Anyone who pays above MSRP for the console is enabling the resellers.

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Bartzyx posted...

People are clearly willing to pay those silly prices for a PS5. This wouldn't happen if there weren't people willing to pay that much money for it.

Anyone who pays above MSRP for the console is enabling the resellers.

I don't think anybody is saying that they aren't responsible at all. But clearly the scalpers themselves are the primary culprits.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

Theres plenty of ways to prevent this kind of thing tbh.

As a developer, let me tell you there's really not.

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HashtagSEP posted...

As a developer, let me tell you there's really not.

Also as a developer, let me tell you that there 100% is.

Something as simple as requiring an account to have a unique credit card associated to it would severely limit their capabilities.

If you do a lottery you can screen the accounts before announcing winners, using some machine learning to help predict duplicate accounts and even manually verify in some cases to help.

Also a lottery system makes it harder for someone to know if they got caught or just unlucky. It really opens up so many avenues.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

Something as simple as requiring an account to have a unique credit card associated to it would severely limit their capabilities.

Paypal would get around that very quick, unless you're suggesting they don't allow Paypal, but then that hurts both the consumer and the business.

Requiring people to keep a credit card on file would also be pretty anti-consumer.

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The sad reality is that there is no easy way to deal with scalpers that doesn't also negatively impact the average consumer.

That doesn't mean we just shrug, though. Scalpers are dicks, let's call 'em dicks. It's that simple. No need to defend them.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Paypal would get around that very quick, unless you're suggesting they don't allow Paypal, but then that hurts both the consumer and the business.

Requiring people to keep a credit card on file would also be pretty anti-consumer.

Theoretically paypal your only supposed to have 1 personal account. They could also do similar measures as well.

I also don't know how on earth you get a console currently without a credit card on file, it'll be out of stock by the time you enter your info tbh. You would probably run into some issues with credit cards this way though tbh but I'm not an expert on the laws around this stuff.

You could also do the same thing with shipping addresses which is probably more feasible. I'm sure email addresses are already unique. I'm sure theres a way to spoof this as well but the main goal of a lottery is to make it harder for the scripts and such work. Anything autogenerated is going to be hard to mask en masse, especially if you have time to look through the accounts.

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HashtagSEP posted...

The sad reality is that there is no easy way to deal with scalpers that doesn't also negatively impact the average consumer.

I mean without negatively impacting the average consumer at all? I think it depends on your preception. The average consumer may find it slightly more of a hassle but still overall be happy that they have a chance at getting what they want.

And really I feel like this is just spitballing ideas, these are huge companies that can easily afford to do research on good ways to do this and find at least a somewhat better solution. They just don't find it valuable enough.

And like mentioned this is really just a toy, who cares etc. But I think precisely because it doesn't matter there should be at least some focus on figuring this out so we have real solutions in place for actual neccesities.

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Colegreen_c12 posted...

But I think precisely because it doesn't matter there should be at least some focus on figuring this out so we have real solutions in place for actual neccesities.

The problem right now is exasperated because we don't want crowds rushing stores for merchandise. The retailers aren't going to invest in fixing this because it really is a one time deal for this scale.

Except for Amazon and similar. But they really do not give a shit about their consumers anymore and are too big for people to go elsewhere.

When PlayStation Direct did their pre-orders, they did a sign-up, which you used your PSN account for. When they granted the pre-orders, they prioritized them based on PSN activity. It would be nice if that were how they were doing their sales now. You do need a PSN account to get one, but scalpers are just making multiple accounts just to use for that. This would eliminate that and ensure, to literally the best degree possible, that these consoles are actually going to legitimate gamers who want them.

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Eh, I think the lottery idea is better than that. There's zero reason to gate them to "legitimate gamers" only. That makes it unfair to somebody who may have went with a different console last gen, or a parent buying it for a kid.

That's taking a pretty big step back in making gaming inclusive.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Well, it's not so much "whatever" because scalping is a big problem in general. We've already seen it with shit like toilet paper and hand sanitizer. Sure, this particular item isn't important, but it's still part of a larger problem, and so the act of defending scalpers in any case is pretty gross.

Sorry nah, scalping essentials in a pandemic doesn't compare to scalping video games/consoles in terms of being shitty humans.

Scalping anything makes you shitty, regardless of the levels of shittyness

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Please stop the whataboutism. People are allowed to call out bad behavior without people saying, butwhatabout this other behavior thats worse?!

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I was going to scalp a single PS4 when they were coming out. I eventually cancelled my pre-order because it just didn't sit right with me.
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So question for anybody who is participating in the hunt...

Walmart has been getting stock to put on their shelves. Brickseek said that a store near me got some in. I called this evening and they said that they have them and are selling them at 7am tomorrow. However I looked again to see if any other stores in the area got them just now, and that store is no longer coming up on Brickseek's stock. Does this mean they ended up selling them early? Or can they manually block them from showing up in the inventory?

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You managed to get a Walmart to answer the phone? I've given up on that

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I got two to do so because at first I accidentally called a Walmart in a town with the same name in a different state.

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