Current Events > Is Antifa a group or movement?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Is Antifa a group or movement?

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idea.

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Neither.

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Terrorists

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monkmith posted...

idea.

Group or movement, whatever you want to see it as, goes beyond beyond "facism is bad".

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LordRazziel posted...

Group or movement, whatever you want to see it as, goes beyond beyond "facism is bad".

but it doesn't, its an internet idea that's been politicized by trump and the alt-right to validate their existence.

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Lmao @ the literal damage control

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monkmith posted...

but it doesn't, its an internet idea that's been politicized by trump and the alt-right to validate their existence.

So, Joe Rogan is Antifa?
Call him what you want, but it seems clear he believes facism is wrong.

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LordRazziel posted...

So, Joe Rogan is Antifa?
Call him what you want, but it seems clear he believes facism is wrong.

joe rogan is a jackass who stirs controversies to make money. he's nothing.

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monkmith posted...

but it doesn't, its an internet idea that's been politicized by trump and the alt-right to validate their existence.

Antifa has existed since long before the internet across multiple continents.

and yes, its an ideology/movement

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It's an ideology

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A dangerous ideology that should be quashed like Nazism is quashed.

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It's all of the above. There's no National Antifa Association, but there are people who form concrete groups using that labeling and people who gather into groups temporarily under that banner. I don't know why people go so hard on trying to act like having no over arching structure means people don't gather under banners of it.

Here in Portland we're going on 6 months of rioting and looting.

I dont think hygiene concerns them.

muchdran posted...

Here in Portland we're going on 6 months of rioting and looting.

wtf happening there? while the rest of the country has stopped being criminals, they keep doing criminal stuff in portland

i've got a couple acquaintances associated with it

it's not a formal, centralized organization - just a loose array of groups identifying with the concept of antifa, ideologically leftist (usually left-anarchist, though tankies and more garden variety leftists may also be affiliated with or have chapters), united by opposition to "fascism," the definition of which (and praxis with respect to "fighting" it) really varies from chapter to chapter, individual to individual, because again it is not a centralized organization

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TheMikh posted...

i've got a couple acquaintances associated with it

it's not a formal, centralized organization - just a loose array of groups identifying with the concept of antifa, ideologically leftist (usually left-anarchist, though tankies and more garden variety leftists may also be affiliated with or have chapters), united by opposition to "fascism," the definition of which (and praxis with respect to "fighting" it) really varies from chapter to chapter, individual to individual, because again it is not a centralized organization

That sounds more like a group, than a moment to me.

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TheMikh posted...

i've got a couple acquaintances associated with it

it's not a formal, centralized organization - just a loose array of groups identifying with the concept of antifa, ideologically leftist (usually left-anarchist, though tankies and more garden variety leftists may also be affiliated with or have chapters), united by opposition to "fascism," the definition of which (and praxis with respect to "fighting" it) really varies from chapter to chapter, individual to individual, because again it is not a centralized organization

How is silencing speech with violence not fascism?

muchdran posted...

How is silencing speech with violence not fascism?

He said he has acquaintances in it, not that he's in it.

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muchdran posted...

How is silencing speech with violence not fascism?

That's not what fascism is.

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There are small cells that identify as antifa, such as the group in portland which is probably what most people are thinking about when they think of an organized group

But is it a large organization with nationwide chapters? Lol, no

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vigorm0rtis posted...

Neither.

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IShall_Run_Amok posted...

That's not what fascism is.

Not technically, but that's pretty much the worst and most dangerous aspect of facism

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AlmightyCheeks posted...

Terrorists

Solid Snake07 posted...

Not technically, but that's pretty much the worst and most dangerous aspect of facism

Silencing free speech with violence is a tactic employed by communists as well, historically...

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Silencing fascist speech protects free speech, because fascists want to end free speech(and most other rights). Fascists have no place in a healthy society.

pogo_rabid posted...

Silencing free speech with violence is a tactic employed by communists as well, historically...

Yeah, I mean.....the authoritarianism is what makes them the villains of the past 100 years.

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Not technically, but that's pretty much the worst and most dangerous aspect of facism

Hunh, and here I thought it was the brutal suppression of anyone deem as the other.

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ElatedVenusaur posted...

Silencing fascist speech protects free speech, because fascists want to end free speech(and most other rights). Fascists have no place in a healthy society.

Literally textbook doublethink

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nemu posted...

There's no National Antifa Association,

Uh... If this is true, then who have I been paying dues to?

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muchdran posted...

How is silencing speech with violence not fascism?

Fascism is an pseudo-religious/cult esque ultranationalist ideology that necessitates an enemy to destroy. Attacks on free speech have never been exclusive to it. Fascism is associated with it because it's authoritarian in its design, but it's hardly "the" defining characteristic.

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Not technically, but that's pretty much the worst and most dangerous aspect of facism

I mean, its not any more dangerous than when literally any other political ideology does it. Their actual view of the world is what makes them the worst and dangerous. Which is why we should definitely shut them up and not allow them to fester.

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So we all agree get antifa out of portland. And maybe take a shower or get a job.

There's no leadership, they can't be criticized. Just stop talking about goddamn antifa!

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Literally textbook doublethink

It's referred to as the "Paradox of tolerance."

A system cannot exist if it allows itself to be destroyed. Fascism operates on the notion that it can break down institutions through deception and subterfuge and destroy free speech at some point along the way.

This isn't "doublethink", this is well established historical fact based on decades of researching fascist regimes and how they knowingly use free speech as a tool to destroy free speech.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Hunh, and here I thought it was the brutal suppression of anyone deem as the other.

.....and how is what you said different than silencing speech with violence?

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IShall_Run_Amok posted...

I mean, its not any more dangerous than when literally any other political ideology does it. Their actual view of the world is what makes them the worst and dangerous. Which is why we should definitely shut them up and not allow them to fester.

I think anyone who wants to supress others rights to speech and protest can go fuck themselves, I don't care if I literally agree with every other thing you're for. It's a deal breaker

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Solid Snake07 posted...

I think anyone who wants to supress others rights to speech and protest can go fuck themselves, I don't care if I literally agree with every other thing you're for. It's a deal breaker

Neat.

Anyway, we should definitely suppress fascist speech and activities.

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Zero_Destroyer posted...

It's referred to as the "Paradox of tolerance."

A system cannot exist if it allows itself to be destroyed. Fascism operates on the notion that it can break down institutions through deception and subterfuge and destroy free speech at some point along the way.

This isn't "doublethink", this is well established historical fact based on decades of researching fascist regimes and how they knowingly use free speech as a tool to destroy free speech.

You're acting as if right wing fascists movements such as nazi Germany and 1930s Italy are the only examples of this.

Subterfuge and deceit aren't historically exclusive to right wing movements. Giving anyone the position to be the arbiters of what people can or cannot think is a responsibility far to great to trust to anyone

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Zangulus posted...

I literally live in a place where people think being against fascism is a bad thing.

You can simultaneously think two opposing groups are bad. You can even think one is worse than the other while simultaneously disavowing them both

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One good example of fascism in motion is probably Qanon. It has all the halmarks of a fascist movement -

-It casts America as downtrodden by an external force.

-It depicts a greater america as something in the past that it vaguely defines through quotes, symbols, and ideas out-of-context into a mishmash of "Americana" to appeal to a group.

-It has cult-like worship of a political strong man figure.

-It spurns an "other" as antithetical to its image of the constructed nation, in this case, the manufactured "Americana" stereotype built from symbols & ideas.

Qanon is credibly very dangerous. It actively recruits people who are mentally ill or who are going through difficult times, it exploits anti-child trafficking movements, and it is comorbid with numerous other dangerous conspiracy theory like MMR (drinking bleach as a cure) and anti-vaxxers. It has members who have committed terrorist attacks.

It should absolutely 100% be suppressed because it's not a quirky idea, it's a grossly antagonistic movement that casts its opposition as irredeemably evil, supports political assassinations, threatens political violence on its spurned "other", and promotes a variety of destabilizing ideas that tangibly make like worse for people uninvolved. It has zero basis in fact and will constantly obfuscate this by lying or cherrypicking the way an internet troll does because it does not seek genuine engagement.

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Zero_Destroyer posted...

One good example of fascism in motion is probably Qanon. It has all the halmarks of a fascist movement -

-It casts America as downtrodden by an external force.

-It depicts a greater america as something in the past that it vaguely defines through quotes, symbols, and ideas out-of-context into a mishmash of "Americana" to appeal to a group.

-It has cult-like worship of a political strong man figure.

-It spurns an "other" as antithetical to its image of the constructed nation, in this case, the manufactured "Americana" stereotype built from symbols & ideas.

Qanon is credibly very dangerous. It actively recruits people who are mentally ill or who are going through difficult times, it exploits anti-child trafficking movements, and it is comorbid with numerous other dangerous conspiracy theory like MMR (drinking bleach as a cure) and anti-vaxxers. It has members who have committed terrorist attacks.

It should absolutely 100% be suppressed because it's not a quirky idea, it's a grossly antagonistic movement that casts its opposition as irredeemably evil, supports political assassinations, threatens political violence on its spurned "other", and promotes a variety of destabilizing ideas that tangibly make like worse for people uninvolved. It has zero basis in fact and will constantly obfuscate this by lying or cherrypicking the way an internet troll does because it does not seek genuine engagement.

You're acting as if free speech is a necessary casualty to suppress terrorism.

It's not

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Solid Snake07 posted...

You're acting as if free speech is a necessary casualty to suppress terrorism.

It's not

Would you take issue with a mosque being shut down if it preached anti-West rhetoric regularly and condemned Americans as evil people who need to be destroyed and inferred political violence was a-okay? For the purposes of this question, this mosque is in some American city

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Zero_Destroyer posted...

Would you take issue with a mosque being shut down if it preached anti-West rhetoric regularly and condemned Americans as evil people who need to be destroyed and inferred political violence was a-okay? For the purposes of this question, this mosque is in some American city

Yes

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Yes

Well, hey, you're consistent, so I respect your beliefs. i disagree tho

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Zero_Destroyer posted...

Well, hey, you're consistent, so I respect your beliefs. i disagree tho

That doesn't mean I don't think law enforcement and intelligence agencies shouldn't keep track of them and people who ascribe to their rhetoric for possible escalations beyond speech. Same goes for any right wing extremists nutjobs.

But yes, they're entitled to say and think whatever they want

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LordRazziel posted...

That sounds more like a group, than a moment to me.

however decentralized, yes, it's a group.

muchdran posted...

How is silencing speech with violence not fascism?

fascism does not have a monopoly on violent suppression of speech. at least per the definition offered in the writings of mussolini, fascism necessarily requires and heavily revolves around a central state. antifa is necessarily decentralized and stateless.

the issue at hand in the contemporary state of affairs is that antifa seems to be taking on an increasingly abstract definition of fascism, the definition for some of which may go so far as to implicitly indict liberalism (in the enlightenment sense) itself. in short, potential inadvertent memetic intersection.

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Atifa is the mirror of Tea Party.
Vague and undefined, but angry about some thing.