Current Events > Is music theory racist?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ziggyshack posted...

Or maybe he did listen, didn't think your statements answered his question and wanted further clarification, you took it as not listening and stopped following Wheaton's Law.

He obviously didn't, he said he was being called a racist (which he wasn't) and dismissed the answer as "woke garbage". Frankly if I were joel I would have stopped responding seriously a lot earlier since it's very apparent these guys aren't looking to have an honest conversation

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scar the 1 posted...

He obviously didn't, he said he was being called a racist (which he wasn't) and dismissed the answer as "woke garbage". Frankly if I were joel I would have stopped responding seriously a lot earlier since it's very apparent these guys aren't looking to have an honest conversation

IIRC, he asked a question to which averagejoel said falls into two camps, one being 100% racist. That seemed to be the camp he fell into and took offence to his question being classified as racist (as would I). He felt averagejoel's responses didn't answer his specific question, after which averagejoel became dismissive.

I believe they were trying to have an honest conversation, but they were deemed dishonest for one reason or another (perhaps because of the "woke garbage" response).

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scar the 1 posted...

"*explains*"

He literally has not explained and has refused to answer the actual question. I asked for comparable works and he gave two "answers" one which insinuates I'm being racist, and one that dances around the question. Then he very clearly states he's not going to give comparable works which is the initial question. But somehow I'm trolling to you?

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Ziggyshack posted...

IIRC, he asked a question to which averagejoel said falls into two camps, one being 100% racist.

you do not remember correctly. my first response to him was post 109. his initial statement (not question) was that white Europeans were the focus "because the rest of the world lacked comparable works."

That seemed to be the camp he fell into and took offence to his question being classified as racist

if he takes offense to his statements (not questions) being classified as racist, then he should not make such statements. I also went into detail about why the one perspective would be considered racist, and he interpreted that as an "accusation" (which it was not)

He felt averagejoel's responses didn't answer his specific question

I also explained, in detail, why his specific statement (again, not question) missed the point of the discussion.

I believe they were trying to have an honest conversation

it has already been established that you do not remember it correctly. at this point, I'm skeptical that you even read the exchange in the first place. ("conversation", because it implies somewhat equal participation, is too generous a term for what happened.)

but they were deemed dishonest for one reason or another (perhaps because of the "woke garbage" response).

it was many reasons. that is indeed one of them. I have laid out a few more.

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CM_Ponch posted...

I asked for comparable works and he gave two "answers" one which insinuates I'm being racist,

He asked "in which sense do you mean", and your response was "not the racist one". That does not in any way insinuate that you're racist. But hey, if the shoe fits

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averagejoel posted...

you do not remember correctly. my first response to him was post 109.

Where you said "100% false" with no explanation and then when asked for explanation said he was either being racist or a meaningless exercise in circular logic "? At no point did you actually try to educate anyone, you just came off as a dick.

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scar the 1 posted...

He asked "in which sense do you mean", and your response was "not the racist one". That does not in any way insinuate that you're racist. But hey, if the shoe fits

No, I asked for clarification, he gave "two answers" neither which answered the actual question and only served to set up a gotcha moment, then he asked for "the same courtesy he had been showing" which up to that point had been dismissing my points, insinuating I was being racist, and refusing to answer the original question

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BatmanWTtP posted...

Where you said "100% false" with no explanation and then when asked for explanation said he was either being racist or a meaningless exercise in circular logic "?

honestly I put a lot more into that exchange than it was worth. I put a lot more into it than he was worth. I could blocked him after that response and just saved myself some time, and I seriously regret not doing that.

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averagejoel posted...

honestly I put a lot more into this conversation than it was worth

By saying he was either being racist or using circular logic? That's your idea of effort?

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BatmanWTtP posted...

By saying he was either being racist or using circular logic? That's your idea of effort?

ok who's your main?

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averagejoel posted...

ok who's your main?

This is exactly why you're being called out on your attitude.

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averagejoel posted...

It's weird how much you're willing to post while not actually having a conversation

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BatmanWTtP posted...

It's weird how much you're willing to post while not actually having a conversation

answer my question. who's your main? I'm leaning 95% towards CM_Ponch

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I mean, if it's just a matter of changing the name to "European Music THeory" I don't see this as a huge issue worthy of long extended debate...

JimmyFraska posted...

I mean, if it's just a matter of changing the name to "European Music THeory" I don't see this as a huge issue worthy of long extended debate...

the actual thing that's racist is the way it gets taught

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averagejoel posted...

answer my question. who's your main? I'm leaning 95% towards CM_Ponch

Why would I answer a question with no answer?

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averagejoel posted...

the actual thing that's racist is the way it gets taught

Ah I see. I didn't read the topic, or have a real knowledge of the subject, so that makes more sense.

JimmyFraska posted...

Ah I see. I didn't read the topic, or have a real knowledge of the subject, so that makes more sense.

yeah. Adam Neely did a really good video on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA

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averagejoel posted...

you do not remember correctly. my first response to him was post 109. his initial statement (not question) was that white Europeans were the focus "because the rest of the world lacked comparable works."

if he takes offense to his statements (not questions) being classified as racist, then he should not make such statements. I also went into detail about why the one perspective would be considered racist, and he interpreted that as an "accusation" (which it was not)

I also explained, in detail, why his specific statement (again, not question) missed the point of the discussion.

it has already been established that you do not remember it correctly. at this point, I'm skeptical that you even read the exchange in the first place. ("conversation", because it implies somewhat equal participation, is too generous a term for what happened.)

it was many reasons. that is indeed one of them. I have laid out a few more.

I indeed misremembered, got him mixed up with RedJackson, for that I apologize. You implied his statement was either racist or he was using circular logic, so Schrodinger's Racist or Schrodinger's Idiot.

Honestly I've got no horse in this race, just saw your "woe is me" at post #146 and thought I'd weigh in on why you might be seeing the behavior you do.


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Ziggyshack posted...

You implied his statement was either racist or he was using circular logic, so Schrodinger's Racist or Schrodinger's Idiot.

No, he implied that the notion of some music being "comparable" is either racist or redundant. That doesn't mean that everyone who thinks along those lines are automatically evil white supremacists, it implies that racist structures go deeper than you'd think.

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Ziggyshack posted...

You implied his statement was either racist or he was using circular logic

no, I flat-out said it, and I still stand by that assessment 100%

so Schrodinger's Racist or Schrodinger's Idiot.

as was just said up there ^, making a racist or stupid statement is not necessarily a reflection of someone's character. having attempted to interact with him, though, I am fairly confident that he is, in fact, both. hence, the block list.

Honestly I've got no horse in this race, just saw your "woe is me" at post #146 and thought I'd weigh in on why you might be seeing the behavior you do.

I know exactly why I'm seeing this sort of behaviour. it is not because of me.

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averagejoel posted...

having attempted to interact with him,

Do you usually interact with people by acting incredibly condescending and hostile when they ask you questions?

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BatmanWTtP posted...

Do you usually interact with people by acting incredibly condescending and hostile when they ask you questions?

no, and I didn't do that here either.

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superXY posted...

Far Leftists unironically believe shit like this.

It's an interpretation that they take too far. It applies not only to music, it applies to pretty much everything everywhere, every art, literature and language, science and social sciences.

Whatever human activity you study, there's going to be a cultural component, and for historic reasons that usually means an ethnic component. Yes, human beings have a culture and an ethnicity. Is that component really important, really relevant to that area of study? I can't just say, yes I'm "loath to say" that since due to historical reasons some subjects (or even their study) happen to focus on a lot of white people, or predominantly on white people, that means they're a tool of white dominance or whatever. That's forcing an issue that you really don't need to force, it's a forced, contrived way to look at it. Music theory is not just "white music theory", the study of music theory is not just "the study of white music theory" or "the white study of music theory". Whatever whiteness, whatever color is in it is incidental. Ultimately it's not relevant. You could, and indeed should look past it.

(Important note: that's not to say you shouldn't try to be more inclusive of other cultures in whatever area. Absolutely. But going "this area of study is racist" is not the way to do that, and if you want to include other cultures you really should have a better reason than "because they're not from a white culture".)

The logical end of this line of argument, the only way this argument makes sense is if you believe that all human beings are racist, that race and racism are inherent in humanity, and that the issue of race and therefore racism cannot be separated from any and all areas of human activity. That's not only false, it's also wrong.

There is racism in humanity, yes. Lots of it. Looking to find it everywhere you can and make everything about it is not the way to get rid of it. Yes, if you look hard enough, you WILL find it. But we have to move past awareness at some point. When it doesn't really help anymore, when in fact it's just perpetuating the problem.

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scar the 1 posted...

No, he implied that the notion of some music being "comparable" is either racist or redundant. That doesn't mean that everyone who thinks along those lines are automatically evil white supremacists, it implies that racist structures go deeper than you'd think.

The second I realized the man would think gravity is racist is the second I stopped taking him seriously

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averagejoel posted...

yes, I didn't mean to suggest that it was perfect; only that it was relatively ahead of music theory in that regard.

another thing is that the basic language of literary devices that get used to describe literature (metaphor, synecdoche, imagery, foreshadowing, etc) is much more broadly applicable than things like counterpoint and voice leading. and, again, as far as I know, those devices were not named for the explicit purpose of elevating the "greatness of the white race"

that does make sense.

and yeah, most of my classes were music. but I also studied quite a lot of english literature.

but regardless, going back to the response to theiwantsong that started this exchange: it does seem reasonable to call the study of english literature racist based on the results (though again, I don't know the history of how it came to be studied in this way).

it also seems that, though of course there's a bias in favour of writing in English (and there's the question of which works are getting translated into English), white supremacy is less... inherent (?) in the way english literature is taught, and that fixing it is relatively simple compared to the complete overhaul that has to be done with music theory.

@averagejoel, English literature is not English. I suggest you "try to listen and engage" with the ideas I've presented, within the context I've presented them.

Man, you really attracted a whole nest of trolls didn't you

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Just wanted to let you guys know since this topic is still somehow alive that you got trolled so god damn hard from this topic since it stemmed from random Discord drama by one person and it wasn't the TC

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2+2=4 is racist.

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scar the 1 posted...

Man, you really attracted a whole nest of trolls didn't you

So are you his personal fanboy?

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theiwantsong posted...

@averagejoel, English literature is not English. I suggest you "try to listen and engage" with the ideas I've presented, within the context I've presented them.

I assumed you meant "the study of english literature" rather than "english" as a language because it was the most generous interpretation of what you said, and anything else would mean you were ignoring context.

we are specifically talking about the study and teaching of music theory, not the theory itself. so comparing that to the english language, rather than to the way the english language is taught, would be a pretty silly thing to do.

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MacadamianNut3 posted...

Just wanted to let you guys know since this topic is still somehow alive that you got trolled so god damn hard from this topic since it stemmed from random Discord drama by one person and it wasn't the TC

Ya, I posted something in here, but I stopped keeping track a long time ago.
I'm not sure why I haven't put this topic on hide yet.
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averagejoel posted...

I assumed you meant "the study of english literature" rather than "english" as a language because it was the most generous interpretation of what you said, and anything else would mean you were ignoring context.

we are specifically talking about the study and teaching of music theory, not the theory itself. so comparing that to the english language, rather than to the way the english language is taught, would be a pretty silly thing to do.

Moving the goal post. The topic title, and the youtube video people have been discussing do not say, "the study of music theory."

@averagejoel

theiwantsong 2, averagejoel 0