Current Events > Is music theory racist?

(+) Yeah! (+)

averagejoel posted...

it's only hard to call it racism if you completely ignore why white people have a "disproportionate dominance" in documenting music.

it's not because other cultures didn't document their music

I think this is a bit regressive. Like...music theory itself is not racist. The events in history that led to music theory being as it exists today were racist. The system itself is not like...easier for white people to understand or something. It's not racist lol. If it were then English is racist.

Pogo_Marimo posted...

Alright, well, for starters the video doesn't touch upon the Tritone in Medieval Europe because there's nothing racist about it, it's just inherently ridiculous and religiously driven drivel. Beyond that, though, you are still using exclusively a Westrrn perspective to analyse worldwide music tradition, which is precisely the kind of ignorant thing that many modern music theorists are trying to avoid. Want to know how many cultures in the world were afraid of Tritones? As far as we know, it was just one. And these Catholics made up about 20% of the world population, maybe, and thus 20% of the world's music tradition. Most cultures never had the same emphasis on harmonics and consonance in their music, and frankly most simply wouldn't give a damn about I - IV - V eithrr. Many using an entirely different formulation of what we would consider a "scale" or "mode". The broad tradition of music theory is far larger than what you've grown accustom to living in a Western country, which plays nearly entirely western traditions of music, which idolizes white, germanic musicians for a very specific language and concept of harmony designed to keet the needs of their own music tradition exclusovely. If you want to critically analysis western music, that is perfectly fine and all, but if you try to apply this mode of thinking to other traditions of music without the context required to understand it, or worse, if you try to make a valuation about other cultures using this narrow tradition of music, then you are actually encouraging white supremacist ways of reasoning.

I think you're combining theory with academia. Academia is racist if it values germanic music disproportionately to other music. Things like figured bass and chord nomenclature are not racist. I have a hunch that the other point might be sensible though, but I can't think of a reason...I can't think of a reason for why viewing eastern music through the lens of western music theory would dim someone's scope of understanding and appreciation for eastern music unless they begin listening with a preexisting biased view that eastern music is inferior to western music. @Pogo_Marimo

averagejoel posted...

we have been very clear about the context in which we are speaking. maybe you should consider talking within that context instead of taking issue with it based on nothing but semantics

You, Pogo, and even Neely may have been clear in explanation.. but the title of the video is not - and that was my only point

I offered a possibility of how the theory itself could be racist even, but y'know >_>

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theiwantsong posted...

I think this is a bit regressive.

it's not

Like...music theory itself is not racist. The events in history that led to music theory being as it exists today were racist.

the music theory curriculum was designed by people who were explicitly racist, and it was designed specifically according to their racist views. it is therefore reasonable to call this curriculum racist.

The system itself is not like...easier for white people to understand or something.

correct, but that is not the only criteria for determining whether or not something is racist

It's not racist lol. If it were then English is racist.

admittedly, I don't know much about how the study of English literature developed into what it is today. was it developed by a man explicitly for the purpose of glorifying English writers whom he believed to be of a superior race? I don't know. but if it was, then sure, I'd say it's reasonable to call it racist.

in my experience, there is not much concrete structure in an English literature curriculum -- even at the high school level, the specific material studied is mostly left up to individual teachers -- so I'm inclined to say that the blame is more on individual teachers and the specific materials they teach rather than on any overarching system.

(I studied English in university, so I'm fairly interested in this topic, and there are people close to me who teach English at the high school level, so I think I tend to be fairly aware of this type of thing. it may very well work differently in different places though)

by contrast, people are largely taught music theory through a system that was designed first and foremost to analyze the works of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven -- and again, they were selected specifically because the guy who designed this system wanted to propagate a sense of German cultural superiority.

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It seems like the people who are calling music theory racist are more concerned with the history of music rather than the implementation and utility of music theory. Music theory is not history. Sry.

theiwantsong posted...

It seems like the people who are calling music theory racist are more concerned with the history of music rather than the implementation and utility of music theory. Music theory is not history. Sry.

it seems like you aren't understanding the context in which we are talking about music theory. it has been explained numerous times in this topic already; I suggest you try to listen and engage with the ideas we've presented, within the context we're presenting them.

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averagejoel posted...

by contrast, people are largely taught music theory through a system that was designed first and foremost to analyze the works of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven -- and again, they were selected specifically because the guy who designed this system wanted to propagate a sense of German cultural superiority.

Lol wut, those guys are the focus because the rest of the world lacked comparable works.

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CM_Ponch posted...

Lol wut, those guys are the focus because the rest of the world lacked comparable works.

that is completely, 100% false.

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averagejoel posted...

that is completely, 100% false.

You're going to have to explain what other regions were coming up woth comparable works

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CM_Ponch posted...

You're going to have to explain what other regions were coming up woth comparable works

there's one definition of "comparable works" in which where your statement is 100% false and extremely racist, and another in which your statement is a meaningless exercise in circular logic. which one did you mean?

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averagejoel posted...

(I studied English in university, so I'm fairly interested in this topic, and there are people close to me who teach English at the high school level, so I think I tend to be fairly aware of this type of thing. it may very well work differently in different places though)

My very vague understanding of this is that literature is a little bit "ahead" of music theory in this regard. But there's still a long way to go. Like I alluded to earlier, what's considered the literary canon is quite centered in Europe and eventually the US. Heck, look at the Nobel Prize and you'll see that it's still heavily favoring western authors.

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averagejoel posted...

there's one definition of "comparable works" in which where your statement is 100% false and extremely racist, and another in which your statement is a meaningless exercise in circular logic. which one did you mean?

Answer both

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averagejoel posted...

in my experience, there is not much concrete structure in an English literature curriculum -- even at the high school level, the specific material studied is mostly left up to individual teachers

Your experience is wrong.

averagejoel posted...

(I studied English in university, so I'm fairly interested in this topic, and there are people close to me who teach English at the high school level, so I think I tend to be fairly aware of this type of thing. it may very well work differently in different places though)

It varies very much by state to state, and whether or not it's an honors class. Also I thought you studied music in uni?

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CM_Ponch posted...

Answer both

ok

one way of using "comparable works" is in terms of quality -- i.e. the idea that no one outside of Europe was making music "as good as" Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven.

the reason this is wrong is that, what constitutes "good" music is extremely subjective, and often arbitrary. and it's racist because there was lots and lots of music being made concurrently in other parts of the world.

you can only definitively say that European music was "better" if you're using the standards of western music theory which were explicitly created with the purpose of venerating the greatness and supremacy of the white German race, and which have their roots in Germany's cultural struggle of the 1930s.

the other way of using "comparable works" is to suggest that people elsewhere in the world weren't writing things similar to Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven -- that is, they weren't specifically writing fugues or cantatas or sonatas or symphonies; that they weren't writing music for Organ or Harpsichord or Violin. which, while correct, is also self-evident. obviously those forms are part of the European music tradition, so it stands to reason that they would be less common in other parts of the world. it also stands to reason that music in other parts of the world would use different instruments.

now that I've thoroughly addressed both interpretations, I'll ask you: by "comparable" did you mean "as good" (the racist and false one) or did you literally mean "writing similar music for similar settings and instrumentation" (the useless self-evident observation)?

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scar the 1 posted...

My very vague understanding of this is that literature is a little bit "ahead" of music theory in this regard. But there's still a long way to go. Like I alluded to earlier, what's considered the literary canon is quite centered in Europe and eventually the US. Heck, look at the Nobel Prize and you'll see that it's still heavily favoring western authors.

yes, I didn't mean to suggest that it was perfect; only that it was relatively ahead of music theory in that regard.

another thing is that the basic language of literary devices that get used to describe literature (metaphor, synecdoche, imagery, foreshadowing, etc) is much more broadly applicable than things like counterpoint and voice leading. and, again, as far as I know, those devices were not named for the explicit purpose of elevating the "greatness of the white race"

Phynaster posted...

Your experience is wrong.

It varies very much by state to state, and whether or not it's an honors class. Also I thought you studied music in uni?

that does make sense.

and yeah, most of my classes were music. but I also studied quite a lot of english literature.

but regardless, going back to the response to theiwantsong that started this exchange: it does seem reasonable to call the study of english literature racist based on the results (though again, I don't know the history of how it came to be studied in this way).

it also seems that, though of course there's a bias in favour of writing in English (and there's the question of which works are getting translated into English), white supremacy is less... inherent (?) in the way english literature is taught, and that fixing it is relatively simple compared to the complete overhaul that has to be done with music theory.

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Re the person who said gravity is not racist

Newtonian absolute space is arguably a pinnacle of white supremacy, in fact the notion of an absolute will pretty much destroy any pretence to humility

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averagejoel posted...

in the way english literature is taught, and that fixing it is relatively simple compared to the complete overhaul that has to be done with music theory.

Racist literature kept around under the guise of someones ability to have freedom of speech or letting non-white guys teach music

Hmm..

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Re the person who said gravity is not racist

Newtonian absolute space is arguably a pinnacle of white supremacy, in fact the notion of an absolute will pretty much destroy any pretence to humility

Gravity keeps us held down; but its not the down youre thinking

The down youre thinking of has everything to do white guys lol

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RedJackson posted...

Racist literature kept around under the guise of someones ability to have freedom of speech or letting non-white guys teach music

Hmm..

Gravity keeps us held down; but its not the down youre thinking

The down youre thinking of has everything to do white guys lol

Lots of Newtypes are extremely cocky

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Lots of Newtypes are extremely cocky

Extremely cocky in what? Lol


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RedJackson posted...

Extremely cocky in what? Lol

Regarding authority

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Regarding authority

Oh, makes sense now

>_>


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averagejoel posted...

now that I've thoroughly addressed both interpretations, I'll ask you: by "comparable" did you mean "as good" (the racist and false one) or did you literally mean "writing similar music for similar settings and instrumentation" (the useless self-evident observation)?

You literally did not provide examples of comparable works, you just babbled woke garbage in an attempt at a gotcha.

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CM_Ponch posted...

You literally did not provide examples of comparable works, you just babbled woke garbage in an attempt at a gotcha.

Protest the Hero is the best band because they write like this 5 10 5 9 8 10 8 5 and not like this 55555555

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CM_Ponch posted...

You literally did not provide examples of comparable works, you just babbled woke garbage in an attempt at a gotcha.

well that's also a way to have a conversation, i suppose

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CM_Ponch posted...

You literally did not provide examples of comparable works, you just babbled woke garbage in an attempt at a gotcha.

I never agreed to "provide examples" of comparable works, and I explained pretty clearly why I took issue with the concept.

I can't continue to engage with you if you don't answer my question.

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averagejoel posted...

I never agreed to "provide examples" of comparable works, and I explained pretty clearly why I took issue with the concept.

I can't continue to engage with you if you don't answer my question.

I meant it in that no one was evolving the practices that came from church music into symphonies and building off centuries of harmonic development, you however are desperate for a racist boogeyman

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CM_Ponch posted...

I meant it in that no one was evolving the practices that came from church music into symphonies and building off centuries of harmonic development

that's basically the second option, and I have already addressed it.

you however are desperate for a racist boogeyman

perhaps you should consider showing me the same courtesy that I showed you. you could start by engaging with the ideas I presented instead of dismissing them for no reason.

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averagejoel posted...

perhaps you should consider showing me the same courtesy that I showed you.

By immediately accusing me of racism?

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CM_Ponch posted...

By immediately accusing me of racism?

I did no such thing.

I did, however, put a good deal of effort into responding to you, and that effort has been neither reciprocated nor met with anything but the word-on-a-screen equivalent of frothing at the mouth

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averagejoel posted...

I did no such thing.

averagejoel posted...

there's one definition of "comparable works" in which where your statement is 100% false and extremely racist

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that is a factual statement, not an accusation

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averagejoel posted...

that is a factual statement, not an accusation

So are you ever going to jump off your moral high horse and answer the question instead of screaming racist

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CM_Ponch posted...

So are you ever going to jump off your moral high horse

I never suggested that I was on a moral high horse to begin with

and answer the question

I did answer the question

instead of screaming racist

I didn't scream racist

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averagejoel posted...

I never suggested that I was on a moral high horse to begin with

I did answer the question

I didn't scream racist

You pretty much called the man a racist lol


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averagejoel posted...

I never suggested that I was on a moral high horse to begin with

averagejoel posted...

and that effort has been neither reciprocated nor met with anything but the word-on-a-screen equivalent of frothing at the mouth

averagejoel posted...

I did answer the question

averagejoel posted...

I never agreed to "provide examples" of comparable works,

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Far Leftists unironically believe shit like this.

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averagejoel posted...

I did no such thing.

I did, however, put a good deal of effort into responding to you, and that effort has been neither reciprocated nor met with anything but the word-on-a-screen equivalent of frothing at the mouth

To be fair, the guy is not looking for an honest conversation. It's pretty clear they're trolling at this point

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scar the 1 posted...

To be fair, the guy is not looking for an honest conversation. It's pretty clear they're trolling at this point

yeah I just added a couple names to my ignore list

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averagejoel posted...

yeah I just added a couple names to my ignore list

https://youtu.be/Sd-sKfz51aQ

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scar the 1 posted...

To be fair, the guy is not looking for an honest conversation. It's pretty clear they're trolling at this point

I asked a legitimate question and got called racist in response while he's done nothing but throw out passive aggressive insults

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CM_Ponch posted...

I asked a legitimate question and got called racist in response while he's done nothing but throw out passive aggressive insults

"Can you name something that is comparable?"
"Comparable in the racist sense or the not racist sense?"
"*explains*"
"OK so you mean the non racist sense"
"Wtf dude called me a racist"

yeah sure

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CM_Ponch posted...

I asked a legitimate question and got called racist in response while he's done nothing but throw out passive aggressive insults

Good riddance, dude goes off in a tangent about absolutely everything else but theory when he was replying to me

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CM_Ponch posted...

I asked a legitimate question and got called racist in response while he's done nothing but throw out passive aggressive insults

[arrested development narrator voice]
everything in that sentence was a lie

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for anyone wondering why I'm often so short-tempered on here: this is why. I attempt to educate people, they completely miss the point, and then they start telling blatant lies about me

next time someone wonders why I'm jaded about this board I'm going direct them to this topic

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CM_Ponch posted...

I asked a legitimate question and got called racist in response while he's done nothing but throw out passive aggressive insults

averagejoel posted...

[arrested development narrator voice]
everything in that sentence was a lie

That is exactly what he's talking about.

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Ziggyshack posted...

That is exactly what he's talking about.

I suggest you read the rest of our exchange before making judgements about my words. I am not in the wrong here

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averagejoel posted...

I suggest you read the rest of our exchange before making judgements about my words. I am not in the wrong here

I did, and he's not wrong about the passive aggressive statements. The racist application can go either way.

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Ziggyshack posted...

I did, and he's not wrong about the passive aggressive statements. The racist application can go either way.

he is wrong to suggest that it's all I did. I started doing that because he didn't listen. as far as I'm concerned, he's earned a little passive aggression directed his way

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averagejoel posted...

he is wrong to suggest that it's all I did. I started doing that because he didn't listen. as far as I'm concerned, he's earned a little passive aggression directed his way

Or maybe he did listen, didn't think your statements answered his question and wanted further clarification, you took it as not listening and stopped following Wheaton's Law.

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Ziggyshack posted...

Or maybe he did listen, didn't think your statements answered his question and wanted further clarification,

presumably if this were the case, he would have asked for further clarification instead of being dismissive

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