Current Events > Is music theory racist?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I read some discourse the other day that really sprang true to me. Music theory as we know it is derived from and still taught in the form it was created in the 1800s by white Europeans. It doesn't apply to contemporary music and forcing kids to learn it that way in school is inherently racist and biased. I have taken a few music theory classes in my life time and I cannot find any way to apply it to music made nowadays, yet it hasn't changed from how it was made by Europeans hundreds of years ago. I think should be addressed further as more awareness is brought up in society. Your thoughts?

u

its just a theory

look at the top 100 billboard songs

theyt doesn't conform to that standard

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Jazz structure is a part of music theory

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We still use white pages to write all this stuff down *facepalm*

It's time for real change TC


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBlaMOmKV4

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Everything is racist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYkJ0kwNss

Everything is racist

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Idk what you mean by cant apply music theory to modern music. Most main stream stuff is pretty basic musically.

But yeah when I went to college for music theory we learned TONS of unnecessary shit that nobody ever needs to know unless you were in some kinda orchestra

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Omasitor Hain posted...

Everything is racist

Lol

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you're... sorta on the right track with this?

"music theory", like a dictionary, is descriptive rather than prescriptive. when people create new music using new concepts, the theory develops new language to describe those concepts. contemporary music still uses music theory, and sometimes it uses theoretical concepts that are also found in baroque- and classical-era music from europe.

that being said, the way it's taught does... leave much to be desired. it's not because it's "still taught in the form it was created in the 1800s by white Europeans" though -- the history of how it developed is a little more complicated and nuanced than that (though it does, in fact, have white supremacy at its core)

Adam Neely's video on the subject is really well-done:
https://youtu.be/Kr3quGh7pJA

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Why the heck did I read title as muscle theory? I really wanted to know what muscle theory was dammit.

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Solid Snake07 posted...

Lol

Day-o.

https://youtu.be/Kr3quGh7pJA

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RedJackson posted...

We still use white pages to write all this stuff down *facepalm*

It's time for real change TC

Urtext uses a calm off white. They truly are the best Sheet Music.

Also, TC OP, is a block of text which is an affront to all rational individuals.
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The harmonic style of 18th century white guys

How did this apply to musicians who have no pre conceived notion of harmonic context then?


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SiO4 posted...

Urtext uses a calm off white. They truly are the best Sheet Music.

Also, TC OP, is a block of text which is an affront to all rational individuals.

Lol Ive gotten pink sheets that almost resemble receipt slips with sheet music on them

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Supernatural posted...

its just a theory

look at the top 100 billboard songs

theyt doesn't conform to that standard

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Certainly music theory can explain why music in the billboard 100 sounds good. That's all music theory does...it is a tool to label and describe structures of music, and explain why those structures harmonize or create dissonance.

Music theory is pretty universal and applicable today. Adam Neely did a very recent YouTube video on this subject. He talks about other ways of describing structures that they use in the east. However, it's not like the harmonic series, or modes, or SOMETHING from European music theory can't explain music from the eastern hemisphere.

The main thing that's racist is that most celebrated classical pieces are from Europeans. But that's because whites were wealthy and Africans really weren't. I don't think Africans that stayed in Africa and didn't become slaves documented their music. I could be wrong. Anyway, the fact that whites are disproportionately celebrated is due to their disproportionate dominance in documenting music throughout history. Kind of hard to call this racism. It's just fractions. What's racist is slavery and all that stuff that happened to keep black people disenfranchised.

Perhaps they should teach more about jazz if they don't. Idk how much they teach it in the average music theory curriculum in college. But if that's lacking, then I could see how that would be considered racist, although in that case I doubt the faculty are purposely trying to project superiority over minorities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA

RedJackson posted...

Lol Ive gotten pink sheets that almost resemble receipt slips with sheet music on them

LOL, The Pink Sheet is a term used to the daily insert for my local newspaper, that is only about Horse Racing, and only during the meet.
It's been a staple here for as long as I can remember.
((Today it's about the only redeeming factor of that newspaper, in fact.))
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Solid Snake07 posted...

Everything is racist

Unironically this.

It's kind of like saying Spanish is language-ist because it doesn't use English words...but if it can describe ideas within its own set of words then why would it need to use English words? What would music theory do? Should we start calling the note C a Q? A C# can be a Q# now? What exactly is supposed to be done? Music theory is pretty complete. We need more tech, better instruments, and better ways to teach music...not better ways to describe it.

theiwantsong posted...

The main thing that's racist is that most celebrated classical pieces are from Europeans. But that's because whites were wealthy and Africans really weren't. I don't think Africans that stayed in Africa and didn't become slaves documented their music. I could be wrong. Anyway, the fact that whites are disproportionately celebrated is due to their disproportionate dominance in documenting music throughout history. Kind of hard to call this racism. It's just fractions. What's racist is slavery and all that stuff that happened to keep black people disenfranchised.

Well said

I know the video is going to touch upon the tritone and the white Anglo Saxon church, but I feel like looking at it through that angle and using it to build that case is being dishonest to the actual science and study of naturally occurring phenomena within sound waves

The tritone would be something that naturally occurs as a part of the harmonic series and the fact that a white religious institution dubs it as something unholy wouldve meant it wouldve had to have existed before anyways to begin labeling it as such

before sheet, even if another instrument used an entirely different base for the creation of music that tritone wouldve existed.. somewhere >_>

I understand that music wouldve taken form in the shape of a former image - but after playing many I-IV-Vs I think that was the combination because it simply sounded good to the ears regardless

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SiO4 posted...

LOL, The Pink Sheet is a term used to the daily insert for my local newspaper, that is only about Horse Racing, and only during the meet.
It's been a staple here for as long as I can remember.
((Today it's about the only redeeming factor of that newspaper, in fact.))

Wait, really? I wonder if there was an equivalent in Reveres local paper since there used to be a racing track there

The Beatles actually played there lol older folk from a dive down the beach there always tell me they were around to see The Beatles do a show in Revere


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In another timeline, or another universe, the tritone might not have been considered unholy, but the clash would still be there. The people of the dominant culture might have not condemned the sound as much. Maybe it would have been used. Maybe another genre would have been created that included the tritone. But it would still sound the same without a context. The interval sounds the same. I don't know if it's right to say music theory is racist. It's more accurate to say 'music history prefers white people.'

RedJackson posted...

Well said

I know the video is going to touch upon the tritone and the white Anglo Saxon church, but I feel like looking at it through that angle and using it to build that case is being dishonest to the actual science and study of naturally occurring phenomena within sound waves

The tritone would be something that naturally occurs as a part of the harmonic series and the fact that a white religious institution dubs it as something unholy wouldve meant it wouldve had to have existed before anyways to begin labeling it as such

before sheet, even if another instrument used an entirely different base for the creation of music that tritone wouldve existed.. somewhere >_>

I understand that music wouldve taken form in the shape of a former image - but after playing many I-IV-Vs I think that was the combination because it simply sounded good to the ears regardless

This is legitimately entirely ignorant about the nature of music history.

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Now as I'm thinking about this I'm suddenly realizing something that has the potential to be considered racist or overly white. For me the minor second seems to be more dissonant than a tritone. So when I see a list ordering consonance to dissonance, and the tritone is on bottom, that's weird to me. I guess this is probably going purely off the mathematics of it...the ratio of the frequencies from one note to the note a tritone up or down from that original note. But the sound matters more when we consider dissonance...not the math.

Pogo_Marimo posted...

This is legitimately entirely ignorant about the nature of music history.

You explain it and tell me then cause I get the feeling were talking entirely different things

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RedJackson posted...

Wait, really? I wonder if there was an equivalent in Reveres local paper since there used to be a racing track there

The Beatles actually played there lol older folk from a dive down the beach there always tell me they were around to see The Beatles do a show in Revere

Haha, Ya. I'll post a pic. And that's funny about The Beatles, that could be seen a sneak attack British Invasion. Hmmm..
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My music theory class in college was 80% jazz, 10% classical, 10% modern genres. The teacher was a white guy with dreads though lol
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SiO4 posted...

Haha, Ya. I'll post a pic. And that's funny about The Beatles, that could be seen a sneak attack British Invasion. Hmmm..

https://www.masslive.com/entertainment/2014/08/west_springfield_man_recalls_t.html

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Yes, all systems created by oppressors are inherently racist and must be critically examined until the common consensus is that they must be torn down.

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Pogo_Marimo posted...

This is legitimately entirely ignorant about the nature of music history.

I still don't get your post even after I woke up lol

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RedJackson posted...

The harmonic style of 18th century white guys

How did this apply to musicians who have no pre conceived notion of harmonic context then?

they still use theoretical concepts in their music, regardless of whether or not they're aware of it

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Hey are you THE uglybass?

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theiwantsong posted...

Anyway, the fact that whites are disproportionately celebrated is due to their disproportionate dominance in documenting music throughout history. Kind of hard to call this racism.

it's only hard to call it racism if you completely ignore why white people have a "disproportionate dominance" in documenting music.

it's not because other cultures didn't document their music

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averagejoel posted...

they still use theoretical concepts in their music, regardless of whether or not they're aware of it

That's not how it actually pans out in music though, someone who picks up a guitar and learns absolutely zero theory (and this is why the guitar is the superior instrument) and gets on writing songs will eventually figure certain tricks and licks sound good to the ear

This is a function of form and the laws of science - you don't have to be Einstein to know he was privileged to have opportunity because of the color of his skin and realize the concept of gravity applies to everyone regardless of color


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So whats stopping you guys from picking up the sitar and learning Indian music theory?

And western classical music theory is the base for almost any popular music youre going to hear. Were not talking about genres, its chords, development, structure, etc. The outside western music influence is mainly rhythm, but thats not theory per se.

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You're not supposed to look at musicians you're supposed to listen to them.

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Uglybass69 posted...

I read some discourse the other day that really sprang true to me. Music theory as we know it is derived from and still taught in the form it was created in the 1800s by white Europeans. It doesn't apply to contemporary music and forcing kids to learn it that way in school is inherently racist and biased. I have taken a few music theory classes in my life time and I cannot find any way to apply it to music made nowadays, yet it hasn't changed from how it was made by Europeans hundreds of years ago. I think should be addressed further as more awareness is brought up in society. Your thoughts?

*groan*

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masticatingman posted...

So whats stopping you guys from picking up the sitar and learning Indian music theory?

And western classical music theory is the base for almost any popular music youre going to hear. Were not talking about genres, its chords, development, structure, etc. The outside western music influence is mainly rhythm, but thats not theory per se.

Absolutely nothing considering I own an Oud, have a friend who lets be borrow his sitar to make recordings, and know very damn well America still calls it 'world' music instead of 'music'. Beyond that, I wouldn't even have to know of the actual theory of quarter tones to begin playing and writing good music they simply will exist and clash as my hear decides what it likes and what it doesn't find beautiful.

Also the second point is moot considering you've already made us aware of the fact that other sects of life have developed their own musical systems to jot down things - they took the science and split it up their own way

You can't trademark the actual laws of waves traveling through air just like you can't say gravity carries institutionalized racism in it and disenfranchise people that way.. just the commodities that come from discoveries like this >_>

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Pogo_Marimo posted...

https://youtu.be/Kr3quGh7pJA

I was thinking about this very video when I saw the topic.

So, basically, music theory is virulently racist.

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IShall_Run_Amok posted...

I was thinking about this very video when I saw the topic.

So, basically, music theory is virulently racist.

If you're a nerd into music theory and playing in an Orchestra that plays virulently racist Beethoven songs - yeh, but for the rest of us in the real world.. I don't 'borrow' the stylistic nature of 18th century white guys and the video is incredibly dishonest for trying to frame absolutely everything in that light through association

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RedJackson posted...

If you're a nerd into music theory and playing in an Orchestra that plays virulently racist Beethoven songs - yeh, but for the rest of us in the real world.. I don't 'borrow' the stylistic nature of 18th century white guys and the video is incredibly dishonest for trying to frame absolutely everything in that light through association

No, the video has me convinced. Sorry.

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RedJackson posted...

That's not how it actually pans out in music though, someone who picks up a guitar and learns absolutely zero theory (and this is why the guitar is the superior instrument) and gets on writing songs will eventually figure certain tricks and licks sound good to the ear

and theory can be used to describe those "tricks and licks" whether or not the person playing them knew it

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All music sucked after Tin Pan Alley

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also:

RedJackson posted...

(and this is why the guitar is the superior instrument)

what

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averagejoel posted...

and theory can be used to describe those "tricks and licks" whether or not the person playing them knew it

This so vague the fact that you can't actually go deeper than this tells me something - in any event, the video itself assumes that you're going to have the means to pay for a white mans college education, in a white dominated country with white institutionalized racism, using white acredited textbooks I will never use... all while mentioning within the video itself that there's other systems of music that exist despite that

You're literally watching a video from a person who considered latin back beats as 'jazz' and that's his problem for not being Latino like me - of course I sat through music class learning music from a white dude who called it 'world' music and have it bug me

Blame popular musicians and the rappers you listen to, they literally have no pre-conceived notion of the fact why something sounds great other than the counsel of what the video is saying: standardized tropes from a white man

But at this point, musicians from the 1900's onwards were on their own to consider their own stylistic tropes thus the invention of Jazz itself. Miles Davis knew this and created an entire foundation separate from Classical culture by capitalizing on the explicit use of modes (and there was some of this before mind you, this was because some people flat out didn't have the means to read sheet and learned it on their own)

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averagejoel posted...

also:

what

Yes, you're free to not learn Beethoven and all the white classical tropes the video talks about and freely create your own being locked into a 12-tone system based not on stylistics, but on function

and skip all of music theory and the stylistic measures involved to boot

Music is probably the only area of art where the 'default' has long been forgotten

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RedJackson posted...

This so vague the fact that you can't actually go deeper than this tells me something

because it doesn't go deeper than that -- theory is descriptive

in any event, the video itself assumes that you're going to have the means to pay for a white mans college education, in a white dominated country with white institutionalized racism, using white acredited textbooks I will never use... all while mentioning within the video itself that there's other systems of music that exist despite that

I'm not talking about the video here

You're literally watching a video from a person who considered latin back beats as 'jazz' and that's his problem for not being Latino like me

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. something being a "latin back beat" doesn't mean that it's not also common in jazz

Blame popular musicians and the rappers you listen to, they literally have no pre-conceived notion of the fact why something sounds great other than the counsel of what the video is saying: standardized tropes from a white man

But at this point, musicians from the 1900's onwards were on their own to consider their own stylistic tropes thus the invention of Jazz itself. Miles Davis knew this and created an entire foundation separate from Classical culture by capitalizing on the explicit use of modes (and there was some of this before mind you, this was because some people flat out didn't have the means to read sheet and learned it on their own)

not sure how any of this is relevant to what I was talking about, or to the video

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