Current Events > One year ago, Martin Scorsese declared Marvel movies as not cinema

(+) Yeah! (+)

TC needs to read a book and realize film is not the height of culture

---

MedeaLysistrata posted...

TC needs to read a book and realize film is not the height of culture

what are the heights of culture

---

amok do you want to join the discord yet

---

Zithers posted...

what are the heights of culture

Pick up a book and find out!

---

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Pick up a book and find out!

pretty cop out answer

cinema is the GOAT until proven otherwise

---

Zithers posted...

pretty cop out answer

cinema is the GOAT until proven otherwise

Hegelian dialectics > every movie

Kantian table of categories > every film

---

books only exist in your head

kinda lame

---

armandro posted...

books only exist in your head

kinda lame

I understand some people have weak imaginations, those people need film I guess

---

i would have thought some edgy philosophy bro would have an appreciation for the seventh art

---

Zithers posted...

pretty cop out answer

cinema is the GOAT until proven otherwise

how has cinema been established as "the GOAT", IYO?

---

g0ldie posted...

how has cinema been established as "the GOAT", IYO?

generates a lot of money, best propaganda type, everyone tries to rip it off, its my opinion (aka fact), etc.

---

Zithers posted...

i would have thought some edgy philosophy bro would have an appreciation for the seventh art

Fassbinder is alright

Godard is cool when you're like 21

Rec me some shit based on that

---

if an MCU movie makes more money than a Scorsese film, for example, and due to its bigger audience, is able to spread more propaganda, have more imitators, etc., is it the better product (cinema, or nah)?

---

g0ldie posted...

if an MCU movie makes more money than a Scorsese film, for example, and due to its bigger audience, is able to spread more propaganda, have more imitators, etc., is it the better product (cinema, or nah)?

Wait. You can't do that. Stop.
---

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Fassbinder is alright

Godard is cool when you're like 21

Rec me some shit based on that

i dunno just get a free 2 week trial on criterion channel and watch whatever, they have lots of fassbinder and godard and adjacent filmmakers (i have never seen fassbinder lol and can't stand godard)

i have seen all that heaven allows, though, which is the source material for ali. great movie.

---

g0ldie posted...

if an MCU movie makes more money than a Scorsese film, for example, and due to its bigger audience, is able to spread more propaganda, have more imitators, etc., is it the better product (cinema, or nah)?

i said cinema is the GOAT so i'm not sure i'm seeing the relevance of the MCU here... ?

---

Smashingpmkns posted...

Wait. You can't do that. Stop.

Zithers posted...

i said cinema is the GOAT so i'm not sure i'm seeing the relevance of the MCU here... ?

my point was if that's your criteria for something being GOAT, then what would you consider the quality/status of something that fulfills those areas better than another work

---

g0ldie posted...

my point was if that's your criteria for something being GOAT, then what would you consider the quality/status of something that fulfills those areas better than another work

there's no doubt marvel is a force to be reckoned with. given that its capitalistic warmongering copaganda it makes sense that its so popular in the world.

doesn't mean it's cinema tho.

---

I wasn't arguing for the MCU being cinema, or not, just saying that if cinema is supposed to be GOAT for certain qualities but something else has those same qualities, but to a higher degree, then doesn't it make that something GOAT instead

---

MCU > cinema

As demonstrated by Boxington's inference the GOAT explanation proof

---

thanks, but I get all of my propaganda from YouTube, the true GOAT medium

---

g0ldie posted...

I wasn't arguing for the MCU being cinema, or not, just saying that if cinema is supposed to be GOAT for certain qualities but something else has those same qualities, but to a higher degree, then doesn't it make that something GOAT instead

ideally the GOAT is actually good

---

night bump

---

Going by TCs definition, I'd call at least GotG, Ragnarok and Infinity War cinema
---

I'd be bitter too if something as widely popular as the MCU made more than double the box office gross of my entire career in film.

/shrug

He can say what he wants...doesn't change the fact that the MCU is unlike anything most have seen or will see in their lifetimes. It will be discussed for years to come in film schools too. People can argue quality all they want, but let's not forget the one universal truth here: money is what talks in Hollywood.

---

I know am a s***head when I say this, but it's hard to listen to MCU fans when they haven't seen a Scorsese movie. And it's plain as day, because the guy who made Goodfellas / Taxi Driver / Casino / Raging Bull / The Departed having a strong opinion about movies should not piss you off.

Disclaimer, I like the MCU. It's off the top of my head the biggest movie juggernaut since Star Wars. That means something too. But it's f***ing Goodfellas we're talking about.

---

why do some of you care what some random guy thinks

Colorahdo posted...

Gatekeeping is so immature

---

sylverlolol posted...

I'd be bitter too if something as widely popular as the MCU made more than double the box office gross of my entire career in film.

/shrug

He can say what he wants...doesn't change the fact that the MCU is unlike anything most have seen or will see in their lifetimes. It will be discussed for years to come in film schools too. People can argue quality all they want, but let's not forget the one universal truth here: money is what talks in Hollywood.

it's insane that people think scorsese cares about money. says more about them than it does him. this guy worked for scale on silence and i'm p sure he worked for scale on the irishman too. he's loaded. he doesn't care about money. he cares about cinema.

---

Honestly this is literally a case of old man angry at thing he doesnt understand

He can think wha the wants and his pedigree speaks for itself but this is a really bad take.

MCU haters arent many but theyre desperate for any sort of criticism so they pounced on this immediately too.

The thing of it is though...its just kinda sad.

Like you wanna argue FOR cinema yet argue against the MCU? what do you think the C stands for champs?

You think a series of movies that has generated over 22 billion dollars of revenue at the box office is bad for cinema?

You think that in 20 or so movies having an average Rotten tomato score around 82% for both critic and audience is bad for cinema?

You think giving the opportunity for extremely talented people such as RDJ and countless others to have this amazing run for their careers is bad for cinema?

You think its bad for cinema getting millions and millions of people to relearn how they care about movies? For example, staying through the entire credits for a hint at whats to come. Caring about characters and a story that transcends previous notions of what sequels, prequels and spinoffs were. Do you know how monumental of an achievement that is?

I can understand how people might not give a shit about superhero movies. But I really fail to understand how anyone whos pro cinema hates the MCU when its an unquestionably impressive achievement in so many ways.


---

Zithers posted...

ideally the GOAT is actually good

so if MCU's Spider-Man 3, for example, is good, IYO, it's in the conversation for being the GOAT?

---

SwayM posted...

Honestly this is literally a case of old man angry at thing he doesnt understand

He can think wha the wants and his pedigree speaks for itself but this is a really bad take.

MCU haters arent many but theyre desperate for any sort of criticism so they pounced on this immediately too.

The thing of it is though...its just kinda sad.

Like you wanna argue FOR cinema yet argue against the MCU? what do you think the C stands for champs?

You think a series of movies that has generated over 22 billion dollars of revenue at the box office is bad for cinema?

You think that in 20 or so movies having an average Rotten tomato score around 82% for both critic and audience is bad for cinema?

You think giving the opportunity for extremely talented people such as RDJ and countless others to have this amazing run for their careers is bad for cinema?

You think its bad for cinema getting millions and millions of people to relearn how they care about movies? For example, staying through the entire credits for a hint at whats to come. Caring about characters and a story that transcends previous notions of what sequels, prequels and spinoffs were. Do you know how monumental of an achievement that is?

I can understand how people might not give a shit about superhero movies. But I really fail to understand how anyone whos pro cinema hates the MCU when its an unquestionably impressive achievement in so many ways.

definitely the worst post of the topic, excellent work

---

Post-credit scenes f***ing suck. I'm going there.

There's a fundamental truth to what Martin is saying. All I could do is shrug and say "dude is old as s***, but he's kinda sorta right". These blockbusters are advertisements to get people in the door to spend money on them. They're a conveyor belt and an indoctrination machine. Each movie tries to entice you into seeing the next. Or buying the merch at the store.

---

tommybel89 posted...

Post-credit scenes f***ing suck. I'm going there.

There's a fundamental truth to what Martin is saying. All I could do is shrug and say "dude is old as s***, but he's kinda sorta right". These blockbusters are advertisements to get people in the door to spend money on them. They're a conveyor belt and an indoctrination machine. Each movie tries to entice you into seeing the next. Or buying the merch at the store.

yeah i don't think there's any artistic merit here. they're commercials for the next movie. fans just forget about them instantly and move on to speculating about the next thing. plus making a lot of money is bound to happen when you're marketing budget is higher than most movie's production budgets. disney is basically more powerful than god right now. who cares if it makes a lot of money. is it good? i've bought tickets to DOZENS of movies and as i sat there in the theater, i realized they were bad. making money isn't synonymous with being good.

furthermore, RDJ barely even has a career outside of the MCU. i think he's done some middlebrow oscar bait since becoming iron man and that's it. the soloist, the judge, uh.... doctor doolittle... how is any of this good for cinema, exactly? very confused by that dude's post.

---

It is absolutely hilarious that Scorsese would bash Marvel movies as not cinema when he said this while literally promoting his "dream film" that he sold to literally one of the largest contributors of the death of cinema: Netflix. Absolute hypocrite

---

DeadSite posted...

It is absolutely hilarious that Scorsese would bash Marvel movies as not cinema when he said this while literally promoting his "dream film" that he sold to literally one of the largest contributors of the death of cinema: Netflix. Absolute hypocrite

and now he's making movies for apple tv

:pensive:

---

That's also because distributors were not touching a 3+ hour drama movie with a 10 foot pole. Today's movie theatre market hardly allows for it. The budget was also over 100 million bucks. That's insane for a drama movie. You can't compare Marvel / DC (movies striving for all demographics) to Scorsese movies (usually gangster / drama movies).

---

I feel something like Black Panther had artistic merit, and positive cultural impact.

it not only introduced an African aesthetic (albeit idealized, but we've seen the same thing from other cultures) but also celebrated it, and had a good deal of positive representation both in front and behind the camera.

and maybe individual directors might not always be able to tell the story they want to tell, they have input, and what you're seeing on screen is their interpretation of events (along with the rest of their team).

like, a Zack Snyder movie is gonna differ from a James Gunn movie even if they're telling the same basic story.

---

tommybel89 posted...

That's also because distributors were not touching a 3+ hour drama movie with a 10 foot pole. Today's movie theatre market hardly allows for it. The budget was also over 100 million bucks. That's insane for a drama movie. You can't compare Marvel / DC (movies striving for all demographics) to Scorsese movies (usually gangster / drama movies).

remember when the godfather and its sequel were both top five in box office

those were the days

now the entire top ten is movies for kids and nerds

---

Yeah back then, you can have a 3+ hour epic becoming box office smash hits. I guess you still can. Titanic did it. But even since 1997, it's harder.

I get that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Comic movies are probably here to stay for a long time. But as I get older and after seeing 2159 renditions of Batman or Spider-Man, I just can't muster the same care for it. I want the movie to be good mostly. I don't need to be enticed to watch the next movie 6 months or a year later. You aren't wowing me with CGI effects and alien CGI armies in the 3rd act anymore. They've turned some grown men into sycophants.

---

Zithers posted...

definitely the worst post of the topic, excellent work

This is the laziest shitpost Ive seen in some time.

---

tommybel89 posted...

Yeah back then, you can have a 3+ hour epic becoming box office smash hits. I guess you still can. Titanic did it. But even since 1997, it's harder.

I get that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Comic movies are probably here to stay for a long time. But as I get older and after seeing 2159 renditions of Batman or Spider-Man, I just can't muster the same care for it. I want the movie to be good mostly. I don't need to be enticed to watch the next movie 6 months or a year later. You aren't wowing me with CGI effects and alien CGI armies in the 3rd act anymore. They've turned some grown men into sycophants.

yeah my fav period for movies is classic hollywood era 1930s-50s.

moody b&w or retina-searing colors, more interpersonal relationship stuff that's character based and isn't heavily reliant on tons of plotting/exposition. everyone looks glamorous and there's a romantic/idealized look at ways of life. that's way better escapism to me than "powerful group of people have to save the world/galaxy again". i think people also severely underestimate craftsmanship of older movies because to them some cgi landscape and showy long takes are impressive cinematography (ew). they think they're super stagey and have bad camera work for some reason (maybe they saw some bad examples of old movies, i dunno). plus, if you like scorsese or tarantino or paul thomas anderson or the coen bros or whoever... who do you think they're ripping off? ppl gotta give old movies a shot sometime!!

thankful for youtube tv since it has turner classic movies and unlimited dvr capabilities.

---

Yeah it took me a while to get into that period of movies but there's a lot of rewarding stuff to watch. I try to make it a point to at least see the AFI 100 List Movies if I can. Along with a bunch of other interesting stuff I've heard of but never got into.

---

Ten more days until the one year anniversary of Coppola rightly asserting that Scorsese is being too easy on them.

---

alan moore baby

https://twitter.com/carolaverygrant/status/1314587117167636482

---

Zithers posted...

alan moore baby

"Toxic nostalgia" (not him personally, not me agreeing or disagreeing, just me attempting to paraphrase what he *said*...)?

---

andri_g posted...

Toxic nostalgia

Perfect phrase for it.

---

bump cuz i want 200

---

Alan Moore is probably on to something, but hes too much of a grumpy old man to really pull it together.

longing to escape the complexities of the modern world is just an inefficient way to say escapism, which isnt new.

Nostalgia is super marketable these days, but most people going to Marvel movies dont read comics and probably dont recognize most of the characters outside of foggy memories of some action figure they might have played with. They go to superhero movies because theyre flashy, safe, blockbusters. Any nostalgia for Captain America or Iron Man in 2020 was cultivated in 2008 with Phase 1, not 50 years ago.

and tying Brexit to superhero movies just seems bizarre. Thats like trying to tie westerns to McCarthyism or something. >_>

Theres definitely a discussion to be had about the cultural ramifications of recycling nostalgic childrens cartoons into a form of adult chic, but coming from Moore it just comes off as old man yelling at clouds. <_<

---